Buying In Se5 -Addington Square-

[Jojo76]

We have been thinking about buying a property in Addington Square in Camberwell. The Square itself is nicely located very close to Burgess Park and off the main roads. However, the properties seem quite expensive and the high crime rate in this ward from the Met website irritated us. We currently rent in Kennington, where we love it, but we are not so familiar with Camberwell. What we have seen during our visits we liked, but maybe somebody with more knowledge of the area could fill us in if the Square and surrounding is OK, or if got the wrong perception by the nice architecture.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated

[Jojo76]

Nobody has any opinion? Or is it so bad that nobody would consider going there?

[EDW]

What has this got to do with property prices?

Answer: NOTHING

[Jojo76]

good to see that someone answers questions, even if it is his/her own one answered in a wired way... well I guess better than nothing.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

good to see that someone answers questions, even if it is his/her own one answered in a wired way... well I guess better than nothing.

You seem to know more about it than anyone else. Also, you didn't ask a question.

I lived in Camberwell and would not go back. I don't know the square you're talking about though.

[Jojo76]

You seem to know more about it than anyone else. Also, you didn't ask a question.

I lived in Camberwell and would not go back. I don't know the square you're talking about though.

Thanks a lot for the comment. was hoping for exactly these comments, to get an impression how it is living in Camberwell.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

I always thought of Burgess park as kennington. It was certainly the wrong side of the tracks of camberwell. What's your budget and what do you want?

[Sibley's Love Child]

Spent five years in SE17 until 2010 so know the area very well.

If you like life a little 'edgy' or 'vibrant' or 'lively' then that's the place for you. Given the prices commanded in the area, there's obviously enough well-to-do people (but can't afford Dulwich or Clapham) happy to live in third world, crime ridden, chav infested sh*te hole. Don't get me started on the bad points.

On a serious note, were I a woman I wouldn't feel too safe living practically inside Burgess Park. Not so bad in the daytime (Chumleigh Gardens is lovely); not so good by night.

[cwk1977]

We have been thinking about buying a property in Addington Square in Camberwell. The Square itself is nicely located very close to Burgess Park and off the main roads. However, the properties seem quite expensive and the high crime rate in this ward from the Met website irritated us. We currently rent in Kennington, where we love it, but we are not so familiar with Camberwell. What we have seen during our visits we liked, but maybe somebody with more knowledge of the area could fill us in if the Square and surrounding is OK, or if got the wrong perception by the nice architecture.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated

I have friends that live in that Square, the Square itself is very nice and the properties in general look quite well looked after but the area in general isn't very nice IMHO. It's the wrong part of Camberwell.

I personally wouldn't pay the high prices that the Square commands, yes the architecture is very nice but the square very much has the feeling of an "oasis" in urban ghetto. The lack of decent amenities and high crime rate would put me off for a start.

My friends are happy enough living there though they don't really refer to it as home.

This is just my opinion.

[adwzie]

I have friends that live in that Square, the Square itself is very nice and the properties in general look quite well looked after but the area in general isn't very nice IMHO. It's the wrong part of Camberwell.

I personally wouldn't pay the high prices that the Square commands, yes the architecture is very nice but the square very much has the feeling of an "oasis" in urban ghetto. The lack of decent amenities and high crime rate would put me off for a start.

My friends are happy enough living there though they don't really refer to it as home.

This is just my opinion.

I've lived on this square and would second the above except that the problem is not that it's in the wrong part of Camberwell but that it is in Camberwell. The square itself is an oasis but I wouldn't step into the park after dark unless you think you can outrun the gangs.

[Janedoe]

lurker surfacing... I've lived in London all my life, and I have to say the truth is often just not like this. Areas get reputations which aren't always justified and can change quite quickly. In the context of house prices its often those people who look beyond the cliches and easy jokes who do very well.

30 years ago people were saying Islington and Notting Hill were overrun with gangs and you wouldn't survive the walk from the busstop. 20 years ago Battersea was supposedly a no-go slum. 10 years ago you couldn't go to Hoxton or Shoreditch without an SAS guard. And all the time that these wise sages, just as now, stayed renting in the 'burbs, waiting for the right time and place to move, others looked at the beautiful housing stock, the easy transport (bus or cab, not tube) to work or play, and acted. Now its the time for Walworth/Camberwell and places like Bethnal Green (far "edgier" than SE5). If you can't make your own mind up, you could do a lot worse than follow "the pink pound" and the "arty" which is piling into these areas. Just as they did when they were priced out of Belgravia and went Chelsea. And then Parsons Green. No one gets prizes for being wise after the event.

As for Addington Square, I know it, have friends there, and would LOVE to live there. Far from being the "wrong" side of Camberwell, its on the "town" side, a good mile closer to work and play than Camberwell Grove meaning a quick bus over any bridge. As for Burgess Park its in the middle of a £6 million re-fit, with improved modern lighting landscaping etc. Expensive? compared to what? its a listed, no-thru-road, Georgian and Regency square on the edge of zone 1. A quarter of the price of Highbury Fields or Niotting Hill and half the distance to Trafalgar Square. Honestly, if I had the money...

[Will!]

lurker surfacing... I've lived in London all my life, and I have to say the truth is often just not like this. Areas get reputations which aren't always justified and can change quite quickly. In the context of house prices its often those people who look beyond the cliches and easy jokes who do very well.

30 years ago people were saying Islington and Notting Hill were overrun with gangs and you wouldn't survive the walk from the busstop. 20 years ago Battersea was supposedly a no-go slum. 10 years ago you couldn't go to Hoxton or Shoreditch without an SAS guard. And all the time that these wise sages, just as now, stayed renting in the 'burbs, waiting for the right time and place to move, others looked at the beautiful housing stock, the easy transport (bus or cab, not tube) to work or play, and acted. Now its the time for Walworth/Camberwell and places like Bethnal Green (far "edgier" than SE5). If you can't make your own mind up, you could do a lot worse than follow "the pink pound" and the "arty" which is piling into these areas. Just as they did when they were priced out of Belgravia and went Chelsea. And then Parsons Green. No one gets prizes for being wise after the event.

As for Addington Square, I know it, have friends there, and would LOVE to live there. Far from being the "wrong" side of Camberwell, its on the "town" side, a good mile closer to work and play than Camberwell Grove meaning a quick bus over any bridge. As for Burgess Park its in the middle of a £6 million re-fit, with improved modern lighting landscaping etc. Expensive? compared to what? its a listed, no-thru-road, Georgian and Regency square on the edge of zone 1. A quarter of the price of Highbury Fields or Niotting Hill and half the distance to Trafalgar Square. Honestly, if I had the money...

I guess it boils down to whether you are wealthy enough to insulate yourself from your environment. If you are, it probably doesn't matter how much of the surrounding neighbourhood is orange on www.police.uk .

I have two younger sisters living in Camberwell. Both have recently graduated from art school and my parents endlessly insist that Camberwell is about to become gentrified (my dad in particular goes on about how the Overground will change things). However my boss was a medical student at Kings College Hospital in the mid 90s and she says that even then Camberwell was supposedly about to become gentrified. Walking around it now, I can't see how if that didn't happen during 10 years of (debt-fuelled) economic growth, it's somehow going to happen during a prolonged period of austerity.

[Janedoe]

I guess it boils down to whether you are wealthy enough to insulate yourself from your environment. If you are, it probably doesn't matter how much of the surrounding neighbourhood is orange on www.police.uk .

I have two younger sisters living in Camberwell. Both have recently graduated from art school and my parents endlessly insist that Camberwell is about to become gentrified (my dad in particular goes on about how the Overground will change things). However my boss was a medical student at Kings College Hospital in the mid 90s and she says that even then Camberwell was supposedly about to become gentrified. Walking around it now, I can't see how if that didn't happen during 10 years of (debt-fuelled) economic growth, it's somehow going to happen during a prolonged period of austerity.

I can see your point, but like your dad (showing my age perhaps) I would take the longer view - despite the doom-mongers here - and say that post-war gentrification of inner London will continue even with hiccups. My point was really that it was ever thus, the homesteader types that went into Notting Hill *did* have their sanity questioned. The stock of agreeable period property from which you can bus to the city or west end *is* limited and not being added to.

It will take time. But is is happening - huge (£1.5 billion) redevelopment plans for the Elephant, the low-rise council flats being sold into the private market, great destination restaurant reviews appearing for Camberwell, more estate agents turning up and the rest. It may not be to everyone's taste, it may have setbacks, there may still be muggings, but it is happening. And the Zone 1/2 market in London is some weird thing, the funding and pricing of which seems to have little to do with the rest of Greater London let alone the rest of the country. There may well be blips, it may be on the wrong side of the bravery/insanity curve for many, but there will be some who do very well indeed riding this.

Best advice I saw was when everyone is buying, sell, when everyone is selling, buy.

[BadMouse]

I have lived in Camberwell since 2000 and it was about to be gentrified then! Restaurants and bars come and go around here - there have always been upmarket and downmarket examples of both and it doesn't seem any different to me now.

Having said that house prices are still going up and up in Camberwell so maybe people who can't afford other places in London are considering Camberwell now and it will finally become gentrified. I think it is probably dependent on London house prices as a whole then - if prices do drop for any reason I would imagine it would quickly fall back to its ungentrified state again.

[Will!]

I can see your point, but like your dad (showing my age perhaps) I would take the longer view - despite the doom-mongers here - and say that post-war gentrification of inner London will continue even with hiccups. My point was really that it was ever thus, the homesteader types that went into Notting Hill *did* have their sanity questioned.

I'd question how much of those areas are truly gentrified. Islington, Notting Hill, Battersea, Hoxton, Shoreditch, Stoke Newington, Clapham etc are all areas with oases of nice middle-classness surrounded by much larger areas that are, for want of a better word, slums. For someone who is sufficiently well off that £800k is a proportionate amount of their overall wealth to commit to a house that may not matter. They can probably afford private schooling and don't need to use public transport. I would argue that wealthy people living in an particular area doesn't necessarily mean it's gentrified, it may just mean they live in gilded fortresses. Unfortunately I don't think I'll ever be that rich so I'm looking for an area I can live in, rather than shut out. My mum gets very excited about the Bellenden Road conservation area, even though there was a bus burning on the edge of it last summer!

And the Zone 1/2 market in London is some weird thing, the funding and pricing of which seems to have little to do with the rest of Greater London let alone the rest of the country. There may well be blips, it may be on the wrong side of the bravery/insanity curve for many, but there will be some who do very well indeed riding this.

No argument there! Prices have been remarkable 'sticky', even allowing for near-zero interest rates etc. I suspect that there are quite a few people who want to buy in London for some time and have been saving up big deposits while waiting for prices to fall to a level that doesn't require an amount of personal debt that looks unsustainable (looking at history in the medium-term). Personally I've given up and am now looking further afield.

Best advice I saw was when everyone is buying, sell, when everyone is selling, buy.

Indeed. But not just yet.

[Janedoe]

I'd question how much of those areas are truly gentrified. Islington, Notting Hill, Battersea, Hoxton, Shoreditch, Stoke Newington, Clapham etc are all areas with oases of nice middle-classness surrounded by much larger areas that are, for want of a better word, slums.

I'm afraid that if your analysis of London property is based on Notting Hill and Islington not being gentrified, then you're far too radical a mind for me

For someone who is sufficiently well off that £800k is a proportionate amount of their overall wealth to commit to a house that may not matter. They can probably afford private schooling and don't need to use public transport.

That's the point: there are plenty of people with the money or the ability to borrow the money. 1 in 10 of children in London (not just owner-occupier children, all children) is privately educated. Camberwell is actually well placed for private schools: bussable south to the Dulwich schools and north to the City or Westminster schools

I would argue that wealthy people living in an particular area doesn't necessarily mean it's gentrified, it may just mean they live in gilded fortresses. Unfortunately I don't think I'll ever be that rich so I'm looking for an area I can live in, rather than shut out.

Maybe this is why you have your unique definition of gentrified. It doesn't mean homogenised wealth. That's the suburbs. Believe it or not there isn't a state of war between rich and poor. Sure for the most part different groups have their own pubs or restaurants or churches or even shops, but many many people (including some well-off ones) actually enjoy that diversity and consider it a good reason to live in central London rather than some rich ghetto in zone 5.

My mum gets very excited about the Bellenden Road conservation area, even though there was a bus burning on the edge of it last summer!

One burning bus doth not a riot make

No argument there! Prices have been remarkable 'sticky', even allowing for near-zero interest rates etc. I suspect that there are quite a few people who want to buy in London for some time and have been saving up big deposits while waiting for prices to fall to a level that doesn't require an amount of personal debt that looks unsustainable (looking at history in the medium-term). Personally I've given up and am now looking further afield.

Genuinely no offence meant, but I think you might well be happier further afield

Indeed. But not just yet.

...and that's what makes a market

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

I'm afraid that if your analysis of London property is based on Notting Hill and Islington not being gentrified, then you're far too radical a mind for me

There are part of Notting Hill I would suggest even the Germans think twice about invading.

That's the point: there are plenty of people with the money or the ability to borrow the money. 1 in 10 of children in London (not just owner-occupier children, all children) is privately educated. Camberwell is actually well placed for private schools: bussable south to the Dulwich schools and north to the City or Westminster schools

This is true, but _which_ part of Camberwell. One road in particular is very nice. It hinges on proximity to Denmark Hill train station. The plebs take the bus to Victoria.

Maybe this is why you have your unique definition of gentrified. It doesn't mean homogenised wealth. That's the suburbs. Believe it or not there isn't a state of war between rich and poor. Sure for the most part different groups have their own pubs or restaurants or churches or even shops, but many many people (including some well-off ones) actually enjoy that diversity and consider it a good reason to live in central London rather than some rich ghetto in zone 5.

This is true, but over the last 50 years it's become less and less true. Perhaps Gordon Brown did something about this, but the real effect in real Central London was to drive out the working middle class.

[Janedoe]

There are part of Notting Hill I would suggest even the Germans think twice about invading.

No doubt. Having had their noses bloodied at the Volga, they would naturally think twice about crossing Westbourne Grove. However, it rather makes my point that gentrification and the fear of the working classes we see here need not be mutually exclusive. I would put up with the odd Staffie-on-a-String for the £100 grand a year tax free that Notting Hill pioneers have made over the last 20 years.

This is true, but _which_ part of Camberwell. One road in particular is very nice. It hinges on proximity to Denmark Hill train station. The plebs take the bus to Victoria.

Of course the right road matters, we're none of us insane, but it certainly doesn't depend on the suburban commuter's fixation with railways. The OP's original mention of Addington Square is a good example. Already north of Camberwell Green and it's congestion, the great bus service along the Walworth Road opens up: The constant stream of big red things can quickly take you over London Bridge (35 or 40), Blackfriars (45), Waterloo (176, 68, 171) or Westminster (12, 148).

Call me Plebian if you like (cheers!) but I would much rather use the cheap, regular buses (most of them 24 hour) than the godawful Northern Line to Clapham and points south.

This is true, but over the last 50 years it's become less and less true. Perhaps Gordon Brown did something about this, but the real effect in real Central London was to drive out the working middle class.

and the working working class. This current govt seems to be pushing at the non-working working class as well.

[Son of Taeper]

We have been thinking about buying a property in Addington Square in Camberwell. The Square itself is nicely located very close to Burgess Park and off the main roads. However, the properties seem quite expensive and the high crime rate in this ward from the Met website irritated us. We currently rent in Kennington, where we love it, but we are not so familiar with Camberwell. What we have seen during our visits we liked, but maybe somebody with more knowledge of the area could fill us in if the Square and surrounding is OK, or if got the wrong perception by the nice architecture.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated

Many threads end up going off topic for various reasons.

You posted in the Regional House Prices area but your subsequent questions seemed to refer to areas of interest that you are aware of.

Hard to tell if any area would suit you without knowing you, but you did a bit of research which shows willing.

I'd suggest you continue your own research, but also look at the Knowhere guide, and maybe end up spending a weekend in your chosen location..