[Shotoflight]

lolacarrascal, on 03 September 2011 - 04:17 PM, said:

Sorry, I've have absolutely no idea what your point is but please don't feel the need to explain.

Perhaps If we called Mr and Mrs Average "The Squeezed Middle" (as the policy makers are fond of doing) it might help to smooth/narrow the areas for discussion.

I think it is widely acknowledged the cost of living in NI is higher (car insurance!), wages are lower, health is poorer - probably die younger too than the UK average. Little competition in electricity (especially annoying for businesses), high personal dependence on heating oil (something like 60% in NI against 30% UK average).

Living in Northern Ireland is bad for your long-term health

http://www.belfastte...h-16044447.html

We are all aware of the "not available in NI" offers or free UK delivery EXCEPT...........

One of IDB's (now INI) main plank for promoting Foreign Direct Investment, not that long ago, was that NI was a low wage economy. They thought this was brilliant, and chimed with the type of businesses they wanted to attract ie call centres. Short sighted to say the least. This aspect is now subsumed in the term "competitive cost base" once Selective Financial Assistance (what we call a grant) has been factored in. Though, sadly, their 'pipe' is now blocked. Dripping but not flowing.

They'll have a harder sell when Continental pull out of Belfast 'international' Airport due to crippling Airport Passenger Duty

I think I recall people saying before the housing boom " ahh yes it's dearer there but housing costs are low" as a sort of mitigation for business. That time has long since passed. High(er) rents and housing costs must act as a powerful disincentive for investors at the best of times, but especially when most other things (except wages) are also higher. Which is where the grants, and the level of grants comes in.

You'ld think Sammy would be happy to see a cost base reducing - I don't detect any establishment enthusiasm for lower house prices/housing costs (except everyone loves cheap mortgages).

As for a highly educated workforce and leading by example, well our Deputy First Minister (ex Education Minister) has little by the way of educational qualifications and our First Minister was an Estate Agent - both with chequered backgrounds.

Just goes to show, though - we voted for them!

Anyway, I don't think NI house prices are going to rise anytime soon.

[winkie]

lolacarrascal, on 31 August 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:

Good thread - liking the analysis. Some realism for a change and bringing the 'affordability' debate into real life context.

Havings kids is the expensive bit. At least with the mortage the proportion of salary needed to service the cost generally diminshes with time through inflation. Some of us more mature posters will know that the opposite applies to kids and the growth in costs seems to be exponential as they progress through the teenage years!

All this realism can get very sobering at times - no wonder 'extend and pretend' is so popular.

Things today are very different to 40 odd yeas ago.....'extend and pretend' was not an option, you brought your kids up within your means according to your earning power there was no other way......there was not the variety and choice of food in the shops like there is today flown in from all over the world....if you couldn't afford butter you ate margarine or dripping....if you couldn't afford meat you bought a smaller piece of cheaper stewing steak and bulked it up with potatoes and other cheaper seasonal vegetables.....houses were cheaper to buy but were out of the reach of most, rents were more reasonable and secure, the price of homes were held steady by wage inflation, where today they have risen with credit inflation......another good thing about those days was there was always a paid job if you were prepared to work, another thing is 'what you saw is what you got'.....today ' what you see does not necessarily mean it has been worked for or paid for'.

[BelfastVI]

lolacarrascal, on 03 September 2011 - 04:17 PM, said:

Sorry, I've have absolutely no idea what your point is but please don't feel the need to explain.

Sorry but I feel I need to.

I suggested that the 70%, or so of housing in private ownership where generally purchased by people enjoying a higher payment profile than the nation as a whole.

You argued that this was not true, offering the fact that pensioners, on low or no income represented a large proportion of the home ownership group.

I, whilst acknowledging your point, further pointed out that these pensioners more than likely purchased, and paid down their mortgage before they reached retirement.

[NuBrit]

Shotoflight, on 31 August 2011 - 03:39 PM, said:

Essential Expenses

Mort £640
Bldg & Contents Ins £20 I pay £140 a year for mine
Food £320 No kids, but I reckon I could get my food budget in at £250 easily with sprogs
Clothes £100 Personally, I would spend £100 in a year in clothes!
Electric/oil/gas £80 £50 a month for me
TV licence/Line Rental/Internet £35
Mobile phones x2 £30

Car Ins £75 Mine is £700 a year and I only have two years no claims and am a young male
Car Tax £15 A lot of folks have diesels....
Car Maint (tyres/service/MOT) £40 Most people don't even service their car!
Car Fuel (social & work) £100 I commute more than most and my fuel bill is almost half this
Social Life (fags/booze/mags/papers/bet/eat out/cinema/swim/zoo) £100
School x 2 (Lunch £3 daily, uniform, shoes, trips) £150
Work x 2 (clothes, odd lunch, coffee) say less than £2 daily £80

Ocassional expenses (replacement/upgrade TV/PC etc) £40

House maint internal/external, furniture, decorating £50

[NuBrit]

DotBomb, on 02 September 2011 - 09:31 AM, said:

Theres a massive amount of scamming, fraud and black economy in NI. I see it everywhere, from housewives driving X5s on business leases, to doing cash jobs, to misapproriating grants, to not declaring rental income. And thats just my neighbours. That scews things quite a bit IMO. Theres lots of people on big money. I heard just the other day of a woman that had spent 4grand on curtains for a room.

I couldn't agree more! I used to live in the east end of London, but the level of tax evasion and fraud here tops it completely and seems to pervade everywhere in society. When I first moved to Northern Ireland, I rented a house off a landlord who had somewhere in the region of 50 properties. He wasn't paying any income tax on these earnings and had declared all 50 properties to be empty in order to avoid the rates charge. When I eventually bought a house, I need to get a few tradespeople in to do some jobs. People were absolutely shocked that I used proper VAT-registered tradespeople to do the work I needed. The general consensus was that I could get a friend of a friend who was on welfare and currently sitting down the pub to do the work under the counter.

I could go on, and on, and on with other similar stories.

This post has been edited by NuBrit: 05 September 2011 - 10:57 AM

[Shotoflight]

Essential Expenses

Mort £640
Bldg & Contents Ins £20 I pay £140 a year for mine
Food £320 No kids, but I reckon I could get my food budget in at £250 easily with sprogs
Clothes £100 Personally, I would spend £100 in a year in clothes!
Electric/oil/gas £80 £50 a month for me
TV licence/Line Rental/Internet £35
Mobile phones x2 £30

Car Ins £75 Mine is £700 a year and I only have two years no claims and am a young male
Car Tax £15 A lot of folks have diesels....
Car Maint (tyres/service/MOT) £40 Most people don't even service their car!
Car Fuel (social & work) £100 I commute more than most and my fuel bill is almost half this
Social Life (fags/booze/mags/papers/bet/eat out/cinema/swim/zoo) £100
School x 2 (Lunch £3 daily, uniform, shoes, trips) £150
Work x 2 (clothes, odd lunch, coffee) say less than £2 daily £80

Ocassional expenses (replacement/upgrade TV/PC etc) £40

House maint internal/external, furniture, decorating £50

Some will pay less, some will pay more.

House Insurance will vary by what you are insuring - value of contents etc.
Car insurance average was quoted in the press at £920 Average
You could feed a family of four for £60 per week - £15 ea, £2 per day per person??
Electric oil gas - family of four not single. Ditto clothes - you would clothe a family of four for £2 per week?? Nevermind school uniforms?
Diesels pay road tax (perhaps lower) are more expensive to buy initially and, usually, dearer to fix
People don't service, mot or put tyres on their car?
You commute "more than most" and your fuel bill is £12 per week? I live 20 miles from belfast and a bus ticket is almost £40 - again the scenario is for two people working.


You obviously don't have children, or many clothes. Perhaps you didn't understand the premise of the thread either.

Are you an Estate Agent, by any chance?

Thanks for your contribution.

This post has been edited by Shotoflight: 05 September 2011 - 11:09 AM

[2buyornot2buy]

I don’t think it was intended that everyone put a statement of affairs up but I thought I would say that yours looks very optimistic. You should take a look over at MSE. They would love you there. Under £250 for food with kids? You don’t buy clothes, heat the house, service the car, and put about 35 litres of fuel in the car a month (where do you travel to? The end of the drive and back?). I applaud you. That’s frugal.

Sorry did realise Shoto covered all this.

This post has been edited by 2buyornot2buy: 05 September 2011 - 11:31 AM

[tinbin]

Shotoflight, on 05 September 2011 - 11:06 AM, said:

Perhaps you didn't understand the premise of the thread either.

Are you an Estate Agent, by any chance?

Thanks for your contribution.

I have to agree with Shotoflight on this one ...

Essential Expenses

Mort £640
Bldg & Contents Ins £20 I pay £140 a year for mine - £11 a month for buildings and contents insurance - are you being serious?? What are you insuring a tent????Food £320 No kids, but I reckon I could get my food budget in at £250 easily with sprogs - Easily for £250, based on what??? Are you going to feed them pasta and rice everyday?? I have 2 kids so speaking from experience this is nonsense
Clothes £100 Personally, I would spend £100 in a year in clothes! - Good luck with that when you have kids.
Electric/oil/gas £80 £50 a month for me - For both ... wise up! You must never be in the house then. You would be lucky to pay less than £70/£80 a month on heating costs alone at current prices. It costs over £500 for 900 litres of oil and the average family would prob get at least 2 fills a year.
TV licence/Line Rental/Internet £35
Mobile phones x2 £30

Car Ins £75 Mine is £700 a year and I only have two years no claims and am a young male - running 2 cars could easily come to £75 a month
Car Tax £15 A lot of folks have diesels.... I have just bought a diesel - it cost me £130 for the yearly tax. Not much less than quoted. If you can only afford 6 months then it costs 10% more so that would make up the difference
Car Maint (tyres/service/MOT) £40 Most people don't even service their car! - Nonsense, booking the flipping MOT alone costs £30. Nevermind new tyres, replacing exhausts, brakes, oil etc when they need done.
Car Fuel (social & work) £100 I commute more than most and my fuel bill is almost half this - Seriously ... more than most on £50, are you using red diesel???

I'm not for getting into a full disclosure of specific personal details on this forum but I can relate to the points made on this topic first hand. If you cant then there is no point in 'speculating' what you feel you can get by on.

This post has been edited by tinbin: 05 September 2011 - 11:47 AM

[Shotoflight]

tinbin, on 05 September 2011 - 11:43 AM, said:

I have to agree with Shotoflight on this one ...

Essential Expenses

Mort £640
Bldg & Contents Ins £20 I pay £140 a year for mine - £11 a month for buildings and contents insurance - are you being serious?? What are you insuring a tent????Food £320 No kids, but I reckon I could get my food budget in at £250 easily with sprogs - Easily for £250, based on what??? Are you going to feed them pasta and rice everyday?? I have 2 kids so speaking from experience this is nonsense
Clothes £100 Personally, I would spend £100 in a year in clothes! - Good luck with that when you have kids.
Electric/oil/gas £80 £50 a month for me - For both ... wise up! You must never be in the house then. You would be lucky to pay less than £70/£80 a month on heating costs alone at current prices. It costs over £500 for 900 litres of oil and the average family would prob get at least 2 fills a year.
TV licence/Line Rental/Internet £35
Mobile phones x2 £30

Car Ins £75 Mine is £700 a year and I only have two years no claims and am a young male - running 2 cars could easily come to £75 a month
Car Tax £15 A lot of folks have diesels.... I have just bought a diesel - it cost me £130 for the yearly tax. Not much less than quoted. If you can only afford 6 months then it costs 10% more so that would make up the difference
Car Maint (tyres/service/MOT) £40 Most people don't even service their car! - Nonsense, booking the flipping MOT alone costs £30. Nevermind new tyres, replacing exhausts, brakes, oil etc when they need done.
Car Fuel (social & work) £100 I commute more than most and my fuel bill is almost half this - Seriously ... more than most on £50, are you using red diesel???

I'm not for getting into disclosing specific personal details on forums but I can relate to the points made on this topic first hand. If you cant then there is no point in 'speculating' what you feel you can get by on.

I mistakenly thought the title "Mr & Mrs Average" was a bit of a clue, personally.

[NuBrit]

Shotoflight, on 05 September 2011 - 11:06 AM, said:

Essential Expenses

Mort £640
Bldg & Contents Ins £20 I pay £140 a year for mine
Food £320 No kids, but I reckon I could get my food budget in at £250 easily with sprogs
Clothes £100 Personally, I would spend £100 in a year in clothes!
Electric/oil/gas £80 £50 a month for me
TV licence/Line Rental/Internet £35
Mobile phones x2 £30

Car Ins £75 Mine is £700 a year and I only have two years no claims and am a young male
Car Tax £15 A lot of folks have diesels....
Car Maint (tyres/service/MOT) £40 Most people don't even service their car!
Car Fuel (social & work) £100 I commute more than most and my fuel bill is almost half this
Social Life (fags/booze/mags/papers/bet/eat out/cinema/swim/zoo) £100
School x 2 (Lunch £3 daily, uniform, shoes, trips) £150
Work x 2 (clothes, odd lunch, coffee) say less than £2 daily £80

Ocassional expenses (replacement/upgrade TV/PC etc) £40

House maint internal/external, furniture, decorating £50

Some will pay less, some will pay more.

House Insurance will vary by what you are insuring - value of contents etc.
Car insurance average was quoted in the press at £920 Average
You could feed a family of four for £60 per week - £15 ea, £2 per day per person??
Electric oil gas - family of four not single. Ditto clothes - you would clothe a family of four for £2 per week?? Nevermind school uniforms?
Diesels pay road tax (perhaps lower) are more expensive to buy initially and, usually, dearer to fix
People don't service, mot or put tyres on their car?
You commute "more than most" and your fuel bill is £12 per week? I live 20 miles from belfast and a bus ticket is almost £40 - again the scenario is for two people working.


You obviously don't have children, or many clothes. Perhaps you didn't understand the premise of the thread either.

Are you an Estate Agent, by any chance?

Thanks for your contribution.

Hey now, there's no need to get testy. You posted this thread on a public forum, if you don't like the responses, that's your problem. You're underestimating how frugal people are and what other means that they have to reduce their costs. Things like childcare costs are expensive, but there are always aunties/grandmothers/friends/flexi-time solutions to reduce this. Food costs are easy - I buy things like potatoes, eggs and fruit directly from source for half nothing. I brew my own beer (delicious may I add) for buttons in my garage. If money is short, people will simply not heat their house or just not go out for the weekend.

[NuBrit]

tinbin, on 05 September 2011 - 11:43 AM, said:

I'm not for getting into a full disclosure of specific personal details on this forum but I can relate to the points made on this topic first hand. If you cant then there is no point in 'speculating' what you feel you can get by on.

Oh come on now, you're just making up things too. No one mentioned a second car and no one said anything about clothing a family of four on £100 a year in this example.

I don't have children, but I know lots of people that do and they all manage to get by with their mortgages and associated costs and still have enough for the foreign holiday and new widescreen tv's and what-have-you's. The people who I know of in financial trouble are more likely not to be home owners. From what I can see, there's a huge amount of people living at home who are up to their eyeballs in debt thanks to car loans, credit cards, store cards, etc.

[Shotoflight]

The thread is about averages, not individuals.

The fuel costs are interesting so a bit of research - Apparently new petrol cars average 42 mpg and diesels 48 mpg (lets say 45) and the average miles travelled in the UK are 8,430 which seems a bit low so I have given 12,000 as a further example. At £1.40 a litre, a gallon = £6.36

Miles 8,430 12,000
/45 (mpg) 187 267
x £6.36 1189 1698
/12 (months) £99.08 £141.50

So anything from £100 to £140 per month for 1 car simply for fuel.

http://assets.dft.go.../nts2010-01.pdf

http://www.nextgreen...m/petdiesel.php

This post has been edited by Shotoflight: 05 September 2011 - 12:34 PM

[NuBrit]

Also, it's a complete fallacy to say that Mr. and Mrs. Average should have a mortgage of £150k. 30% of people in Northern Ireland don't own a home at all. Also, many people who do own homes, bought them from the council years ago for buttons and probably have the mortgage paid off. The number of people who actually took out £150k mortgages during the bubble years as a percentage of all households is very small. Indeed, statistics seem to suggest that just over 20,000 households (about 3% of all households) were unlucky enough to have bought when property prices were in various stages of silliness in Northern Ireland (2005-present) - http://www.dsdni.gov...ternet_copy.doc The real figure is probably even less than that as cash purchases or purchases with high deposits are in that figure.

[tinbin]

NuBrit, on 05 September 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

Oh come on now, you're just making up things too. No one mentioned a second car and no one said anything about clothing a family of four on £100 a year in this example.

I don't have children, but I know lots of people that do and they all manage to get by with their mortgages and associated costs and still have enough for the foreign holiday and new widescreen tv's and what-have-you's. The people who I know of in financial trouble are more likely not to be home owners. From what I can see, there's a huge amount of people living at home who are up to their eyeballs in debt thanks to car loans, credit cards, store cards, etc.

You got me ... I'm making things up.

I really live in a castle with a surrounding moat with sharks in it. I swan about all day in my robe drinking red wine, planning my next beach holiday whilst flicking channels on my widescreen TV in my cinema room.

... Life's a breeze when Mr Visa and Mrs Mastercard pick up the tab.

[Shotoflight]

NuBrit, on 05 September 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

Also, it's a complete fallacy to say that Mr. and Mrs. Average should have a mortgage of £150k. 30% of people in Northern Ireland don't own a home at all. Also, many people who do own homes, bought them from the council years ago for buttons and probably have the mortgage paid off. The number of people who actually took out £150k mortgages during the bubble years as a percentage of all households is very small. Indeed, statistics seem to suggest that just over 20,000 households (about 3% of all households) were unlucky enough to have bought when property prices were in various stages of silliness in Northern Ireland (2005-present) - http://www.dsdni.gov...ternet_copy.doc The real figure is probably even less than that as cash purchases or purchases with high deposits are in that figure.

The point of the thread is fictional. It was to show what the situation would be like now for a couple, both working with 2 kids who buy an average house now at £150k, at todays prices per the UUJ survey. With a 10% deposit paid upfront, all furnishings and no debt carry over (pretty unrealistic and conservative as stated before).

The conclusion (well mine, at any rate) is that there is a disconnect between the average current house price and affordability for a 2 income household with 2 kids. I chose this scenario as 2 incomes ("household income") are stated as the scenario for most housebuyers by some on this board. I also ranged childminding costs from zero to a conservative £200.

None of this is worth getting excited over.

Houses are still too dear. Just thought it might put some flesh on the bones of all these averages.

Perhaps I'm not very good at explaining myself.