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Debt Based Monetary System Question


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#16 mansoor_h_khan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 01:27 PM

yeah, that.



No, because people never know when they are going to get taxed. Besides, you can't ban fractional reserves.in the real world.

In the case above, the fact that people may get taxed at any instant mean that they are effectively permanently in debt to the state, they just don't know by how much.

A pretty horrific situation!

Here's they key point mansoor - inflation cannot be "controlled" like you are intimating, either in our current monetary system, or your hypothetical one above or indeed in any conceivable system.


Scepticus,

I strongly, strongly suspect that any fractional reserve system will eventually fail without government backed deposit insurance protection. Once you grant this protection eventually you end up with taxation (anyway) to give value to all the "badly" created private money.

Do you see what I mean?

Mansoor

#17 Injin

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 01:28 PM

Scepticus,

I strongly, strongly suspect that any fractional reserve system will eventually fail without government backed deposit insurance protection. Once you grant this protection eventually you end up with taxation (anyway) to give value to all the "badly" created private money.

Do you see what I mean?

Mansoor

Not if there is no government, you don't.

Morons lose their shirts and that's that.
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#18 mansoor_h_khan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 01:55 PM

I'm a lover of facts. They lead to anarchy.

None of those things you outline actually exist, nor can they.


What do you mean? Marriages to exists. Businesses don't exist. Governments don't exist.

Please elaborate. I know I am slow at grasping stuff sometimes.

Mansoor

#19 Injin

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 02:05 PM

What do you mean? Marriages to exists. Businesses don't exist. Governments don't exist.

Please elaborate. I know I am slow at grasping stuff sometimes.

Mansoor

A marriage is just an agreement between two people, they exist, their behaviour exists but there is no thing "marriage" that exists outside of their behaviour, when they are not performing that behaviour.

Businesses are the same. It's just a label for people doing stuff.

However, sometimes we have a concept that isn't part of peoples behaviour, or is impossible and can't exist. Governent is one such concept. Clever individuals use the concept, but if you look closely you'll see the idea is quite, quite mad, not possible.

In my initial statement I should have singled marriage out as the odd one out as it prescribes a definite set of behaviours (unlike the others which are either vague or impossible.)
My Blog

Find the right answer, realise you'll never see it in your lifetime, and then advocate it anyway because it's the right answer.

You've got to settle for second, third of fourth best in day to day life more often than not. There is no reason to accept anything but the best in your thinking, however. The only real personal issue is it requires you to completely give up on the idea that you will ever be all that free yourself. Accepting you can do nothing to sway tens of millions of people with muddleheaded notions any time soon is the first step to actually fixing stuff properly.

Ty, Shipbuilder.

#20 mansoor_h_khan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 02:12 PM

Not if there is no government, you don't.

Morons lose their shirts and that's that.


There is another very practical way to look at it. If in any given system most end up being morons. The system itself is moronic. Then the system itself should be redesigned.

We can do better than just: "and that's that". Again, if most are behaving in such a way that the results are moronic then our basic assumptions are moronic and we need a change in way of thinking about ourselves and others.

Today's 6.5 billions humans alive (with Malthus turning in his grave) with more material production per capita than ever dreamed of I say we are doing pretty good materially at least.

Mansoor

#21 Injin

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 02:28 PM

There is another very practical way to look at it. If in any given system most end up being morons. The system itself is moronic. Then the system itself should be redesigned.

We can do better than just: "and that's that". Again, if most are behaving in such a way that the results are moronic then our basic assumptions are moronic and we need a change in way of thinking about ourselves and others.

Today's 6.5 billions humans alive (with Malthus turning in his grave) with more material production per capita than ever dreamed of I say we are doing pretty good materially at least.

Mansoor

me, I believe in free markets.

I also know what they are, which is pretty rare.

Which is why I have to take issue with the idea that systems are "designed." Central planning hasn't been taken seriously as an idea for a long time due to it's consistent utter failures. Even the early russian marixists jacked it in as unworkable rather than starve absolutely everyone to death. I suspect this idea that stuff is done by some benevolent committee somewhere and we all obey for the greater good is for the birds.
My Blog

Find the right answer, realise you'll never see it in your lifetime, and then advocate it anyway because it's the right answer.

You've got to settle for second, third of fourth best in day to day life more often than not. There is no reason to accept anything but the best in your thinking, however. The only real personal issue is it requires you to completely give up on the idea that you will ever be all that free yourself. Accepting you can do nothing to sway tens of millions of people with muddleheaded notions any time soon is the first step to actually fixing stuff properly.

Ty, Shipbuilder.

#22 mansoor_h_khan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 02:55 PM

me, I believe in free markets.

I also know what they are, which is pretty rare.

Which is why I have to take issue with the idea that systems are "designed." Central planning hasn't been taken seriously as an idea for a long time due to it's consistent utter failures. Even the early russian marixists jacked it in as unworkable rather than starve absolutely everyone to death. I suspect this idea that stuff is done by some benevolent committee somewhere and we all obey for the greater good is for the birds.


Dude.... Why you have to only look at bad examples.... How about Germany? How about Japan?

Mansoor

#23 mansoor_h_khan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 03:09 PM

yeah, that.

Here's they key point mansoor - inflation cannot be "controlled" like you are intimating, either in our current monetary system, or your hypothetical one above or indeed in any conceivable system.



Scepticus,

What is the point of inflation targeting by central banks?

Are you saying that open market operations should be done away with?

Mansoor

#24 Injin

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 03:14 PM

Dude.... Why you have to only look at bad examples.... How about Germany? How about Japan?

Mansoor

Germany - huge slave population, evil system of extortion, crippling debt and violence to solve interpersonal problems.

Japan - you aren't seriously siggesting that the land of the hari kiri salaryman is one to be envied are you?
My Blog

Find the right answer, realise you'll never see it in your lifetime, and then advocate it anyway because it's the right answer.

You've got to settle for second, third of fourth best in day to day life more often than not. There is no reason to accept anything but the best in your thinking, however. The only real personal issue is it requires you to completely give up on the idea that you will ever be all that free yourself. Accepting you can do nothing to sway tens of millions of people with muddleheaded notions any time soon is the first step to actually fixing stuff properly.

Ty, Shipbuilder.

#25 mansoor_h_khan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 03:26 PM

Germany - huge slave population, evil system of extortion, crippling debt and violence to solve interpersonal problems.

Japan - you aren't seriously siggesting that the land of the hari kiri salaryman is one to be envied are you?


No. I grew up in Pakistan (to age of 13 before coming to America) and know firsthand the disaster anarchy leads to. Japan is way, way, way much better than what I saw in Pakistan.

But anyway. Let us focus on Germany. You say "evil system of extortion". Germany is a democracy. Is it not?

Germany is the best example I have seen of a society in the modern world which is highly disciplined and ordered yet quiet creative. Granted, Britain has been probably more creative in the past and I see mostly a rudderless Britain now.

What is needed is a cross between the Britain of 1700 to 1960 (very creative) to a Germany of today (highly disciplined and ordered and aware of connectedness of members of society).

Mansoor

#26 Injin

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 03:28 PM

No. I grew up in Pakistan (to age of 13 before coming to America) and know firsthand the disaster anarchy leads to. Japan is way, way, way much better than what I saw in Pakistan.

But anyway. Let us focus on Germany. You say "evil system of extortion". Germany is a democracy. Is it not?

Germany is the best example I have seen of a society in the modern world which is highly disciplined and ordered yet quiet creative. Granted, Britain has been probably more creative in the past and I see mostly a rudderless Britain now.

What is needed is a cross between the Britain of 1700 to 1960 (very creative) to a Germany of today (highly disciplined and ordered and aware of connectedness of members of society).

Mansoor

You do understand that anarchy is the absence of violence in personal interactions, right?
My Blog

Find the right answer, realise you'll never see it in your lifetime, and then advocate it anyway because it's the right answer.

You've got to settle for second, third of fourth best in day to day life more often than not. There is no reason to accept anything but the best in your thinking, however. The only real personal issue is it requires you to completely give up on the idea that you will ever be all that free yourself. Accepting you can do nothing to sway tens of millions of people with muddleheaded notions any time soon is the first step to actually fixing stuff properly.

Ty, Shipbuilder.

#27 mansoor_h_khan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 03:36 PM

You do understand that anarchy is the absence of violence in personal interactions, right?


Not exactly. I believe in right and wrong and collectively deciding on right and wrong:

right = leads to an overall most peaceful, fun and fulfilling life possible

wrong= leads to the OPPOSITE of an overall most peaceful, fun and fulfilling life possible

That is where we differ. I believe TRUTH exists. Hard to find but exists.

Violence is good and ok to achieve "right". The right must be decided collectively.

Can the collective screw up? Yes.

But mostly humanity has been marching toward the truth overall, again my proof:

"Today's 6.5 billions humans alive (with Malthus turning in his grave) with more material production per capita than ever dreamed of I say we are doing pretty good materially at least."


Mansoor

#28 Injin

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 04:12 PM

Not exactly. I believe in right and wrong and collectively deciding on right and wrong:

right = leads to an overall most peaceful, fun and fulfilling life possible

wrong= leads to the OPPOSITE of an overall most peaceful, fun and fulfilling life possible

That is where we differ. I believe TRUTH exists. Hard to find but exists.

Violence is good and ok to achieve "right". The right must be decided collectively.

Can the collective screw up? Yes.

But mostly humanity has been marching toward the truth overall, again my proof:

"Today's 6.5 billions humans alive (with Malthus turning in his grave) with more material production per capita than ever dreamed of I say we are doing pretty good materially at least."


Mansoor

There are no collectives.
My Blog

Find the right answer, realise you'll never see it in your lifetime, and then advocate it anyway because it's the right answer.

You've got to settle for second, third of fourth best in day to day life more often than not. There is no reason to accept anything but the best in your thinking, however. The only real personal issue is it requires you to completely give up on the idea that you will ever be all that free yourself. Accepting you can do nothing to sway tens of millions of people with muddleheaded notions any time soon is the first step to actually fixing stuff properly.

Ty, Shipbuilder.

#29 mansoor_h_khan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 04:50 PM

There are no collectives.


Then why worry about anything! Truth does not exist. Why try to find it. Why debate and discuss?

Just Eat, Drink and Be Merry! Don't fight anything. Just Be Kool.

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#30 Injin

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 05:00 PM

Then why worry about anything! Truth does not exist. Why try to find it. Why debate and discuss?

Just Eat, Drink and Be Merry! Don't fight anything. Just Be Kool.

Mansoor

The truth is there are no collectives.

Collectives are to the truth what baldness is to hair colour.
My Blog

Find the right answer, realise you'll never see it in your lifetime, and then advocate it anyway because it's the right answer.

You've got to settle for second, third of fourth best in day to day life more often than not. There is no reason to accept anything but the best in your thinking, however. The only real personal issue is it requires you to completely give up on the idea that you will ever be all that free yourself. Accepting you can do nothing to sway tens of millions of people with muddleheaded notions any time soon is the first step to actually fixing stuff properly.

Ty, Shipbuilder.




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