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#1 User is online   interestrateripoff 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 08:40 AM

http://www.nytimes.c...ml?ref=business

Quote

MUMBAI, India — While rising government debt is a growing concern in Europe and the United States, Asia’s economies remain remarkably resilient, even buoyant, underscoring how economic might is shifting from West to East.

China has been repaying some of what little foreign debt it owes, even as economists wonder whether Greece will require an international bailout and ask how long the United States can sustain record budget deficits. “We took a pass on the economic crisis,” said Philip S. Carmichael, president of Asian operations at Haier, China’s biggest appliance maker.

Even the Asian economies that have shrunk during the recession, like Malaysia and Cambodia, escaped the worst ravages — with the notable exception of Japan, Asia’s first industrialized country. Because of the Asian financial crisis of 1997, many Asian countries have been more conservative about borrowing and spending over the last decade than Western nations, which went on a debt binge during the good times and continued to increase their borrowing during the recession to try to turn around their economies.

Many economists say countries have to spend during recessions, increasing deficits and debts. But investors and economists alike worry about the long-term effect of mammoth debt on the vitality of Europe and the United States. The longer it takes Western capitals to confront their overspending, the higher and more rapid Asia’s rise will be, many economists say.

Even though Asian stock markets fell last week, analysts say there is no obvious Asian equivalent to, say, Greece. Investors see little risk of default among even heavily indebted countries like India and Japan.

In India, the government’s debt is nearly 80 percent of the gross domestic product, but it owes more than 90 percent of that money to its own citizens. Of the rest, a big chunk is held by agencies like the World Bank, which, are not likely to press for quick repayment.

Compared to Greece, “the threat of these two defaulting is nowhere close, and the reason is that, thanks to high domestic savings rates, their debt is almost all domestically financed,” said Kim Eng Tan, a sovereign debt analyst in the Singapore office of Standard and Poor’s.

“If you sell bonds to your own citizens, and you do it in your own currency, you don’t have much of a problem,” said Ajay Kapur, the chief global strategist for Mirae Asset, a big South Korean financial services company.

China has been repaying some of its small external debt as it comes due, a luxury that a country with more than $2 trillion in foreign reserves can afford.

China showed a government budget surplus for the first 11 months of last year, but Western economists still expect a small deficit for the entire year because agencies tend to go on spending binges every December to avoid returning unspent money.

A few smaller Asian nations have had difficulties in the last year and a half. But they have been hurt more often by political strains than by economic troubles. Like Greece, Pakistan and Sri Lanka have relied heavily over the years on overseas borrowing. That started to dry up in late 2008, as fighting with insurgents in both countries began to scare off foreign lenders. Both ended up receiving assistance from the International Monetary Fund, and that has shored up their finances, at least for now.

Thailand and the Fiji Islands both had ratings downgrades last year because of civil unrest as well, although neither required I.M.F. assistance.


The Asians have certainly run there economies far better than us or it is they don't understand the new economic paradigm that debt is wealth? It would appear the hypothesis is about to be tested.

Perhaps debt doesn't matter to advanced economies like ours....

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 08:47 AM

View Postinterestrateripoff, on 09 February 2010 - 08:40 AM, said:

http://www.nytimes.c...ml?ref=business



The Asians have certainly run there economies far better than us or it is they don't understand the new economic paradigm that debt is wealth? It would appear the hypothesis is about to be tested.

Perhaps debt doesn't matter to advanced economies like ours....


To say Cambodia has an economy may be overstating the case.

With the influx of Western money (debt) effectively ceasing, believe me these places are in trouble. 60% of Thailand's GDP is reliant on exports, which are down 30%+. Tourism accounts for an official 6% of GDP (although much higher if you consider the dodgier end of that business), that's down 50% (in reality).

They were as reliant on our debt as we were during the bubble years.

#3 User is online   Bloo Loo 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 08:55 AM

"In India, the government’s debt is nearly 80 percent of the gross domestic product, but it owes more than 90 percent of that money to its own citizens. Of the rest, a big chunk is held by agencies like the World Bank, which, are not likely to press for quick repayment."

Oh thats all right then, this Indian debt is owed to human beings....unlike everyone elses debt.
Its not a house price boom, its a credit feast and now its time for the hangover
No bankers were harmed in the making of this bailout

Your
country is at risk
if you
do not keep up repayments
on a gilt or other loan secured on it


#4 User is offline   porca misèria 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 09:21 AM

View PostBloo Loo, on 09 February 2010 - 08:55 AM, said:

"In India, the government’s debt is nearly 80 percent of the gross domestic product, but it owes more than 90 percent of that money to its own citizens. Of the rest, a big chunk is held by agencies like the World Bank, which, are not likely to press for quick repayment."

Oh thats all right then, this Indian debt is owed to human beings....unlike everyone elses debt.

Careful ...

If you're a taxpayer, you're on the hook for bust pension providers :ph34r:

#5 User is offline   expatowner 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 09:45 AM

Sailing smoothly right enough

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#6 User is offline   Timak 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 09:58 AM

I'm sure India sailing smoothly through the financial crisis is great solace to the 700m plus citizens living in abject poverty.....and China's economic miracle didn't seem to have reached any of the rural areas I visited last year.

This post has been edited by Timak: 09 February 2010 - 09:59 AM


#7 User is offline   doahh 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 10:01 AM

I am not convinced by this either. The Bombay Stock Exchange saw a massive loss (over 50%) during the first wave down and is now retraced to a little over 50% of that loss. Mumbai house prices are massively overvalued and their political system is very corrupt. We had to bribe the court officials to get anything done while we were over there, they were happy to take the bribes and I don't believe that it was because I am from the UK. There is almost no enforceable justice over there and so naturally people get away with theft of company pensions (I know an Indian it happened to and 7 years later the collective case is not yet in court) etc. Our experience with justice was the same, in India you should forget it; this means people can act almost with impunity - and I am sure they do. IMHO, the problems just haven't come out of the woodwork yet.

This post has been edited by doahh: 09 February 2010 - 10:02 AM


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Posted 09 February 2010 - 10:11 AM

View Postdoahh, on 09 February 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

I am not convinced by this either. The Bombay Stock Exchange saw a massive loss (over 50%) during the first wave down and is now retraced to a little over 50% of that loss. Mumbai house prices are massively overvalued and their political system is very corrupt. We had to bribe the court officials to get anything done while we were over there, they were happy to take the bribes and I don't believe that it was because I am from the UK. There is almost no enforceable justice over there and so naturally people get away with theft of company pensions (I know an Indian it happened to and 7 years later the collective case is not yet in court) etc. Our experience with justice was the same, in India you should forget it; this means people can act almost with impunity - and I am sure they do. IMHO, the problems just haven't come out of the woodwork yet.


Agreed. Most of the people on this forum don't believe their own government, so how in hell do they believe Asian governments?

1. Reliable data? In South and SE Asia? :lol:

2. Data massaged to save face.

3. Data simply not collected/fabricated. Corruption is endemic at all levels of 'society'. Much of the economy is 'black'.

4. It's still the 3rd Word.

#9 User is offline   expatowner 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 11:52 AM

.;

This post has been edited by expatowner: 09 February 2010 - 11:53 AM


#10 User is offline   huw 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 01:34 PM

Savings are deferred consumption. As such you can use them for two things:

(1) to command the future output of your debtors
(2) to command resources and raw materials like oil and metals.

ISTM that (1) is just what is needed to re-balance the global economy. Western workers seeing their jobs sent East would surely prefer to see products sent East instead ... so where's the problem, and why is China not happy to send its people away from the factories and into the shopping malls (rhetorical question B))?

(2) is the bone of contention. But when push comes to shove that's a debate that ends up being settled by force, not by savings.
"If the economic relationships between nations are not, by one means or another, brought fairly close to balance, then there is no set of financial arrangements that can rescue the world from the impoverishing results of chaos" -- Geoffrey Crowther

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