Home_To_Roost Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Most effective routes to the "top" being through the City or legal profession. I hear that there are too many law graduates already! A struggling economy doesn't need lawyers, or their £200/hour fees! I picture a LOT of law grads working in menial jobs, or unemployed ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone_Twin Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 You seem to have ignored the central point ( in order to make a silly patronising comment about ordinary Stoke people) that one "think tank" bod made. He constrasted the industrial revolution with its decentralised capital, a period during which people were prepared to take a risk on "making and developing things." The UK became a world leader. So industrially we had the equivalent of the Star Ship enterprise, whilst everyone else was still at the donkey and cart stage. Also our 18th century forebears only had pamphlets to find out "what worked and what didn't" whereas today we have the internet and can find out "what works" even faster. Now capital seems to be more centralised in the hands of crony capitalists and City Bankers., the result is that social mobility has ground to a halt and money no longer goes into the hands of thousands (millions) of entrepreneurs who are prepared to risk all. Also an over reliance in mini bubble economies that only occur in big city's such as London. The so called "Starbucks" phenomenon. Looking forward to tonights follow up, though not hopeful on the solutions, until the "too big to fail" types are bankrupted and failed and capitalism is allowed to work properly again. And of course no politician is prepared to engage with the voter as to where the jobs for their children are going to come from. Just about everyone I speak to with kids is concerned about this. Most effective routes to the "top" being through the City or legal profession. The result is that the next generation will almost certainly be poorer than the previous. Paul Mason is a rarity amongst BBC reporters. He actually "gets it." As he pointed out we can't survive alone on "supermarkets" and "call centres." I think you've read more into what I said than I intended as I agree with most of what you wrote there. My post was glib (I have nothing against people from stoke btw) but there is a point behind it. Rather than celebrating the "creativeness and talent" of people knocking seven colours out of a sack of sand and holding that up I think they could have spent time looking for genuine entrpreneurs and small business and find out what issues they are facing re. creating jobs in the area. I have only recently been put onto Paul Mason, I agree he is a gem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 The contrived debate between Miliband et al prior to the clip was akin to a punch and judy show. I liked Mason's report. Debunked the myth of the "service" economy very nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.C. Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Banks need to focus on investing in productive industries, steel, ship building, aircraft manufacturing etc and not derivative scams Reopen the steel works, use the production for high quality big idea projects, how about starting with the high speed rail link but link all of the cities, rebuild the bridges that were lost in the winter floods in steel etc. Britain has the ability to produce virtually everything we need so we should be manufacturing for our own markets first then exporting to the rest of the world With the investment required to replace the nuclear power stations that will close in the next decade we could employ thousands of people. Ah, of course it's so simple why don't we do that! Only problem is every other country on the planet (except for third world crap holes) is trying to do exactly the same thing and quite a lot of them have much lower costs of living, wages and taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lets get it right Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Rather than celebrating the "creativeness and talent" of people knocking seven colours out of a sack of sand and holding that up I think they could have spent time looking for genuine entrpreneurs and small business and find out what issues they are facing re. creating jobs in the area. That would have been very useful. But, in the context of the young people featured, I would worry that entrepreneurs trying to grow small businesses might say something politically incorrect like 'A lot of young people have been so poorly educated that they are only capable of manual work - and there isn't enough of that to go round' But naughty things like that go against the BBC's brief which is to show all New Labour policies as having been an outstanding success. They seemed likeable and willing enough those lads - but if you were going to give them a job - what could you give them? Labouring, driving ... what else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 That would have been very useful. But, in the context of the young people featured, I would worry that entrepreneurs trying to grow small businesses might say something politically incorrect like 'A lot of young people have been so poorly educated that they are only capable of manual work - and there isn't enough of that to go round' But naughty things like that go against the BBC's brief which is to show all New Labour policies as having been an outstanding success. They seemed likeable and willing enough those lads - but if you were going to give them a job - what could you give them? Labouring, driving ... what else? Fair point. One of the pugilists claimed to have a degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone_Twin Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 That would have been very useful. But, in the context of the young people featured, I would worry that entrepreneurs trying to grow small businesses might say something politically incorrect like 'A lot of young people have been so poorly educated that they are only capable of manual work - and there isn't enough of that to go round' But naughty things like that go against the BBC's brief which is to show all New Labour policies as having been an outstanding success. They seemed likeable and willing enough those lads - but if you were going to give them a job - what could you give them? Labouring, driving ... what else? Agreed. We have built a high cost economy (housing, utilities, taxes) supported by the debt injection but forgotten about those who cannot command a high enough price for their time. Of course we can magic them into being more "valuable" by putting a minimum wage in place but that just means they will never be cheaper than a machine. Maybe there are some things we could get them to do (god knows we have enough pot-holes need filling) but those lads are not going to be worth much to someone in an economically depressed area. So we tax everyone else to keep these chaps on the dole/housing benefit/ because we can't let costs in the economy fall (withdraw houseing benfits and see how many landlords get wiped out and how quickly rents fall) as that would hurt the asset rich people running the show. There's only so much longer it can go on like this. We are going to hit the buffers of reality soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 That would have been very useful. But, in the context of the young people featured, I would worry that entrepreneurs trying to grow small businesses might say something politically incorrect like 'A lot of young people have been so poorly educated that they are only capable of manual work - and there isn't enough of that to go round' They keep saying this, but Victorian entrepreneurs used to train their work force. Apprenticeships? Indeed these entrepreneurs even used to provide the housing for their work force and built a lot of these northern mill towns! Entrepreneurs today seem to think the state should provide them with a ready trained work force. Its not the states job. There is an opportunity here somehow, but the money is either concentrated in the wrong hands, or someone is waiting for the big state to "do something." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Stromba Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I live near stoke and i know Stoke is getting hit pretty hard in the recession, It always does. The housing is not that expensive compared to the rest of the country, but its still out of the reach of the people who earn the local wages. Add in the high unemployment, and all the part time workers and it adds up for a depressing downward spiral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone_Twin Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 They keep saying this, but Victorian entrepreneurs used to train their work force. Apprenticeships? Indeed these entrepreneurs even used to provide the housing for their work force and built a lot of these northern mill towns! Entrepreneurs today seem to think the state should provide them with a ready trained work force. Its not the states job. There is an opportunity here somehow, but the money is either concentrated in the wrong hands, or someone is waiting for the big state to "do something." Who an afford to take on trainees when they "need" £100s per month forbasic accomodation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishman Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 We cannot compete with asian manufacturers because in this country ... The cost of a factory is too high. Business rates are too high Wages are too high Health and safety legislation places high costs on business Too much money has to be spent on administration to satisfy government demands The UK is a basket case. High wages and high property prices. Something has to give eventually. All of your points above are true. And the reason is because we, as a nation, have failed to realise that Britain has been a basket case (as you say) since 1945. The true cost of the second world war was our long-standing position as an economic power. Except we've failed to acknowledge this and kept on borrowing or selling soveriegn assets to hide the truth. That's the British 'stiff upper lip' for you. We borrowed heavily from the USA which kept us going through the forties and fifties. The sterling devaluations of the sixties and seventies kept the wolves away for a little longer. Eighties privatisations and then finally the credit expansion and the property bubble has prolonged our national judgment day. Now, we're faced with expanding private and public debt that - let's face it - is never going to be repaid. Rolled over, yes but this simply delays the inevitable. We have to face facts - we've borrowed enormous sums to sustain our standard of living. As you say, something has to give and I'm just starting to get a tad worried that it may be sooner rather then later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 They keep saying this, but Victorian entrepreneurs used to train their work force. Apprenticeships? Indeed these entrepreneurs even used to provide the housing for their work force and built a lot of these northern mill towns! Entrepreneurs today seem to think the state should provide them with a ready trained work force. Its not the states job. There is an opportunity here somehow, but the money is either concentrated in the wrong hands, or someone is waiting for the big state to "do something." Look at today's entrepreneurs. The likes of the 'Dragons' Den' millionaires are there to make a mint as quickly as possible, without any tiresome stuff like apprenticeships, long term investment etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 The contrived debate between Miliband et al prior to the clip was akin to a punch and judy show. It was an embarrassing spectacle, I couldn't bear to watch for more than a minute. Three grown men, all trying their best to say nothing while sounding "good", and playing a little game of catching each other out every time one of them almost accidentally said what he meant. Completely pathetic. Also a good indication of what life under a hung parliament is likely to be like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Look at today's entrepreneurs. The likes of the 'Dragons' Den' millionaires are there to make a mint as quickly as possible, without any tiresome stuff like apprenticeships, long term investment etc. Exactly. Also their obsession with patents when none of them have developed or offered anything that is remotely creative or innovative! They are considerably richer than any of us thou...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Exactly. Also their obsession with patents when none of them have developed or offered anything that is remotely creative or innovative! They are considerably richer than any of us thou...! Yep, these get rich quick merchants have done everything to enrich themselves, but fekk all for UK PLC. Interesting question then, is how can government encourage fledgling manufacturing entrepreneurs to invest in the UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 All of your points above are true. And the reason is because we, as a nation, have failed to realise that Britain has been a basket case (as you say) since 1945. The true cost of the second world war was our long-standing position as an economic power. Except we've failed to acknowledge this and kept on borrowing or selling soveriegn assets to hide the truth. That's the British 'stiff upper lip' for you. We borrowed heavily from the USA which kept us going through the forties and fifties. The sterling devaluations of the sixties and seventies kept the wolves away for a little longer. Eighties privatisations and then finally the credit expansion and the property bubble has prolonged our national judgment day. Now, we're faced with expanding private and public debt that - let's face it - is never going to be repaid. Rolled over, yes but this simply delays the inevitable. We have to face facts - we've borrowed enormous sums to sustain our standard of living. As you say, something has to give and I'm just starting to get a tad worried that it may be sooner rather then later. Good post. You have nicely encapsulated the UK's predicament. Judgment Day is approaching fast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lets get it right Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 They keep saying this, but Victorian entrepreneurs used to train their work force. Apprenticeships? Indeed these entrepreneurs even used to provide the housing for their work force and built a lot of these northern mill towns! Entrepreneurs today seem to think the state should provide them with a ready trained work force. Its not the states job. Err, if it's not the state's job, why will they send me to prison if I don't either send my children to one of their schools or take it on myself to home educate? The state spends about 40 billion pounds a year on education. Of course it is their job! They have taken it upon themselves to tax us and spend a fortune educating our children. The problem is - they are bloody useless at it. They have children full-time for 11 years and many of them struggle with basic literacy and numeracy at the end of it. When I were a lad (aye, I'm going back a good bit now) the school leaving age was 15. The world divided us into secondary modern or grammar school students when we were 11. Virtually every lad I knew as a kid who went to a secondary modern school left at age 15 to take up an apprenticeship - like tool-making or carpentry - that definitely demanded competence in numeracy and, perhaps to a lesser extent, literacy. I don't for one minute think children are thicker than they used to be - yet they are churned out in their droves really of not much use to anyone. This government and the teaching profession should be ashamed of themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Second Time Around Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 All of your points above are true. And the reason is because we, as a nation, have failed to realise that Britain has been a basket case (as you say) since 1945. The true cost of the second world war was our long-standing position as an economic power. Except we've failed to acknowledge this and kept on borrowing or selling soveriegn assets to hide the truth. That's the British 'stiff upper lip' for you. We borrowed heavily from the USA which kept us going through the forties and fifties. The sterling devaluations of the sixties and seventies kept the wolves away for a little longer. Eighties privatisations and then finally the credit expansion and the property bubble has prolonged our national judgment day. Now, we're faced with expanding private and public debt that - let's face it - is never going to be repaid. Rolled over, yes but this simply delays the inevitable. We have to face facts - we've borrowed enormous sums to sustain our standard of living. As you say, something has to give and I'm just starting to get a tad worried that it may be sooner rather then later. Quite nicely put! I will add that North Sea oil was a lucky break which could have turned the UK's fortunes around but that was then squandered to hide the side effects of the wasteful policies of the 80s and 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Quite nicely put! I will add that North Sea oil was a lucky break which could have turned the UK's fortunes around but that was then squandered to hide the side effects of the wasteful policies of the 80s and 90s. Yep, North Sea Oil revenues were p*ssed up against the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lets get it right Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Also a good indication of what life under a hung parliament is likely to be like. Not at all. A hung parliament would be brilliant. Do you know what happens when no-one has complete control. You have to talk sensibly and realistically and agree on a policy - not some half-witted dogma that is the party line. Look at our choices. A control freakery obsessed, centralising, 'we know best about everything' Labour party that has led us into the biggest debt crisis in history. Or a toff dominated conservative party pretending to care about everyone when they have a policy of helping millionaires out of inheritance tax. What a FU*CKING choice. Liberal Democrats - please step up. It is yours for the taking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.C. Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Not at all. A hung parliament would be brilliant. Do you know what happens when no-one has complete control. You have to talk sensibly and realistically and agree on a policy - not some half-witted dogma that is the party line. Look at our choices. A control freakery obsessed, centralising, 'we know best about everything' Labour party that has led us into the biggest debt crisis in history. Or a toff dominated conservative party pretending to care about everyone when they have a policy of helping millionaires out of inheritance tax. What a FU*CKING choice. Liberal Democrats - please step up. It is yours for the taking. Yup. Hung parliament is the only way to keep the more rabid parts of the tory party in check. Vince isn't going to let the economy slide, but he also won't let the tories rape the poor in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Err, if it's not the state's job, why will they send me to prison if I don't either send my children to one of their schools or take it on myself to home educate? The state spends about 40 billion pounds a year on education. Of course it is their job! They have taken it upon themselves to tax us and spend a fortune educating our children. The problem is - they are bloody useless at it. They have children full-time for 11 years and many of them struggle with basic literacy and numeracy at the end of it. When I were a lad (aye, I'm going back a good bit now) the school leaving age was 15. The world divided us into secondary modern or grammar school students when we were 11. Virtually every lad I knew as a kid who went to a secondary modern school left at age 15 to take up an apprenticeship - like tool-making or carpentry - that definitely demanded competence in numeracy and, perhaps to a lesser extent, literacy. I don't for one minute think children are thicker than they used to be - yet they are churned out in their droves really of not much use to anyone. This government and the teaching profession should be ashamed of themselves. Somethign that costs £40bn P.A. and doesn't change is doing exactly what it's meant to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lets get it right Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Somethign that costs £40bn P.A. and doesn't change is doing exactly what it's meant to. What do you mean? Do you mean that something that costs £40 billion p.a. and achieves nothing - is achieving nothing on purpose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Yep, these get rich quick merchants have done everything to enrich themselves, but fekk all for UK PLC. Interesting question then, is how can government encourage fledgling manufacturing entrepreneurs to invest in the UK? I doubt if anything "top down" will work now and will result in mal investment. It really requires "bottom up" investment and involvement to work. Almost a "grass roots" involvement if you can drag people away from X factor for long enough. Quite how this will occur I don't know. It might require something cataclismic, perhaps even Injin's "state failure", where people just get on with doing there own thing. I don't know. No one does! For example get the state to do something and you end up with ludricrous situation where it costs over £300 to put an extra power socket into a hospital. "The people" doing it directly will know an electrician that will do it for a fiver (thus bypassing the crony capitalist service company). The state machine and crony capitalists such as the Branson's of this world need to be bypassed, then the tapeworm will start to die. Even people like Michael Portillo, are discussing these idea's now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 What do you mean? Do you mean that something that costs £40 billion p.a. and achieves nothing - is achieving nothing on purpose? It's achieving exactly what it's meant to - the mass churning out of useless, knowledgeless unemployables with a massive sense of entitlement is no accident. Follow the votes/money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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