"we All Ate Together"

[mfs1959]

Theodoros Pangalos conied the phrase "We all ate together" in 2010 to point that the people and politicians are all responsible for landing the country with its mountain of debt. He was vilified by the Greek people.

Where is out politician with the guts to stand up and point out that it's not just politicians and bankers, it's all of us: estate agents, journalists, broadcasters, watchers of property porn, mewers, and the rest?

Edited April 26, 2012 by mfs1959

[crashmonitor]

Well said Theo. Could equally go for the Brown boom too. We all want jam today and land the next generation in debt. Some even make out that this debt is an investment and somehow in the unborns interests, yeh right.

[Errol]

Default. Default.

[GBdamo]

Theodoros Pangalos conied the phrase "We all ate together" in 2010 to point that the people and politicians are all responsible for landing the country with its mountain of debt. He was vilified by the Greek people.

Where is out politician with the guts to stand up and point out that it's not just politicians and bankers, it's all of us: estate agents, journalists, broadcasters, watchers of property porn, mewers, and the rest?

Not this nonsense argument again.

If you went to the doctor and he prescribed you medication, would you take the 'we're all in this together' approach if that medication was wrong and caused serious complications?

As with doctors and medicine very few people are knowledgeable enough to understand all the intricacies of government and economies and defer to elected representatives who claim to know what's best.

There may be a few people that knew and played the game but the vast majority just did as they were told. If they were properly educated they may have known things couldn't last but they weren't.

The blame for this mess lies with the politicians and the bankers.

[mfs1959]

Not this nonsense argument again.

If you went to the doctor and he prescribed you medication, would you take the 'we're all in this together' approach if that medication was wrong and caused serious complications?

As with doctors and medicine very few people are knowledgeable enough to understand all the intricacies of government and economies and defer to elected representatives who claim to know what's best.

There may be a few people that knew and played the game but the vast majority just did as they were told. If they were properly educated they may have known things couldn't last but they weren't.

The blame for this mess lies with the politicians and the bankers.

No, it's with all of us. The reason why even those politicians who knew how bad things were could say nothing was that the great British public did not want to hear, and would punish those forthright enough to say.

[billybong]

IF some of them did all eat together then some sure got to eat far far more than others.

Edited April 26, 2012 by billybong

[GBdamo]

No, it's with all of us. The reason why even those politicians who knew how bad things were could say nothing was that the great British public did not want to hear, and would punish those forthright enough to say.

Agree but you're looking five years further on than me. It should never have happened in the first place and politicians should not have allowed banks to prey on the public.

[OnlyMe]

Agree but you're looking five years further on than me. It should never have happened in the first place and politicians should not have allowed banks to prey on the public.

That is the key, it was predatory. Just look at the credit card debt - different market, same issue. Bombard the population with zero percent offers, get the public to take it up until at some poit either the bank decides to up the rates having ensnared their debt pool or for the borrower to start defaulting on other obligations, miss payments and then hit them with charges.

Pure calculated greed and planned theft on the part of the banks, except it blew up in their face when they asked the taxpayer to pay for the bill, directly and through inflation, which the politicans and central bank obliged in spades.

Edited April 26, 2012 by OnlyMe

[mfs1959]

That is the key, it was predatory. Just look at the credit card debt - different market, same issue. Bombard the population with zero percent offers, get the public to take it up until at some poit either the bank decides to up the rates having ensnared their debt pool or for the borrower to start defaulting on other obligations, miss payments and then hit them with charges.

Pure calculated greed and planned theft on the part of the banks, except it blew up in their face when they asked the taxpayer to pay for the bill, directly and through inflation, which the politicans and central bank obliged in spades.

Sorry, this sounds like denial. "A big boy did it and ran away".

[OnlyMe]

Sorry, this sounds like denial. "A big boy did it and ran away".

There is only one reason you douse a person with 0% credit - to ****** them over later. The same was done with housing with teaser rates and 125% loans.

It is not rocket science.

[Gone baby gone]

"We all ate together"

He forgot the last bit:

"But some of us came back for seconds, thirds, fourths..."

[mfs1959]

There is only one reason you douse a person with 0% credit - to ****** them over later. The same was done with housing with teaser rates and 125% loans.

It is not rocket science.

Apart from my mortgage I have only borrowed at 0% interest. I paid no interest, no PPI, nada, nothing. I didn't get ****** over.

Perhaps we should introduce a 'Financial Unawareness' card, like organ donor cards. It could say, "Don't lend me anything as I don't understand the concept of being required to pay it back".

[RufflesTheGuineaPig]

Default. Default.

Errol... do you have a pension... or any savings?

[mfs1959]

"We all ate together"

He forgot the last bit:

"But some of us came back for seconds, thirds, fourths..."

In Greece that's most of the population, something like 90% of dentists declared earnings below 12.5k euros.

[Dorkins]

"We all ate together" ignores the demographic reality that Greek over-40s are even now mostly doing pretty well for themselves while the Greek under-35s are the most shafted generation in any country in Europe.

[RufflesTheGuineaPig]

"We all ate together" ignores the demographic reality that Greek over-40s are even now mostly doing pretty well for themselves while the Greek under-35s are the most shafted generation in any country in Europe.

Where have I seen that before...

[GBdamo]

Apart from my mortgage I have only borrowed at 0% interest. I paid no interest, no PPI, nada, nothing. I didn't get ****** over.

Perhaps we should introduce a 'Financial Unawareness' card, like organ donor cards. It could say, "Don't lend me anything as I don't understand the concept of being required to pay it back".

The average person in the uk is pertty dumb, and 50% are more dumb still.

You should be crediting yourself with the fact your in the upper 50% not assume everyone is of the same interlect.

Do you honestly believe that if some simpleton walked into a bank with an 'I a financial retard' card that bankers would refuse them or rub their hands together?

They are predators, we are the prey.

[mfs1959]

The average person in the uk is pertty dumb, and 50% are more dumb still.

You should be crediting yourself with the fact your in the upper 50% not assume everyone is of the same interlect.

Do you honestly believe that if some simpleton walked into a bank with an 'I a financial retard' card that bankers would refuse them or rub their hands together?

They are predators, we are the prey.

There was an element of sarcasm in my original suggestion. Thinking further, however, the idea could work; any loans to anyone who flashed their 'Financial Unawareness' card at the point of sale could be unenforceable. The banks would soon steer clear. We could start by dishing them out to everyone who has reclaimed PPI from the banks, that gives us a good starting point.

Hang on though for complaints from those who can't borrow money for mortgages, cars, foreign holidays, consumer goods.

[Bloo Loo]

Sorry, this sounds like denial. "A big boy did it and ran away".

half right, the big boy did it, and now he wants your dinner as well as the lunch money he took last week.

[mfs1959]

Not this nonsense argument again.

If you went to the doctor and he prescribed you medication, would you take the 'we're all in this together' approach if that medication was wrong and caused serious complications?

As with doctors and medicine very few people are knowledgeable enough to understand all the intricacies of government and economies and defer to elected representatives who claim to know what's best.

There may be a few people that knew and played the game but the vast majority just did as they were told. If they were properly educated they may have known things couldn't last but they weren't.

The blame for this mess lies with the politicians and the bankers.

I have thought carefully about this reply.

If people are greedy, and will not wait for something, then are bankers at fault? They played on those weaknesses, but the people who fell for it were not forced to do so. If you want a drink and a barman sells you what you want, is he at fault?

Yes, bankers offered interest only mortgages, additional unsecured loans on top, they cut the repayment requirements on credit cards to keep the bubble going. central banks and regulators allowed all of this.

However, can you imagine the huge level of complaints from the public in any country that withdrew these products. We can see it now in the clamour for reduced LTV on mortgages and the complaints about the sudden unavailability of interest-only offers creating mortgage prisoners.

Are the bankers now at fault in their new-found prudence?

It all comes down to a large element of greed and a failure of self-denial.

You may not agree with me, but I would urge you to think about it. How many people were on the larger house with spare rooms and offices for both partners, several holidays a year, weekend breaks in Europe, new car every three years, kick? And how many paid for it all without using every available line of credit?

Bankers or public? Chicken or egg? I don't know the answer, but "We all ate together" gets close.

[madpenguin]

I have thought carefully about this reply.

If people are greedy, and will not wait for something, then are bankers at fault? They played on those weaknesses, but the people who fell for it were not forced to do so. If you want a drink and a barman sells you what you want, is he at fault?

Yes, bankers offered interest only mortgages, additional unsecured loans on top, they cut the repayment requirements on credit cards .

It all comes down to a large element of greed and a failure of self-denial.

You may not agree with me, but I would urge you to think about it. How many people were on the larger house with spare rooms and offices for both partners, several holidays a year, weekend breaks in Europe, new car every three years, kick? And how many paid for it all without using every available line of credit?

Bankers or public? Chicken or egg? I don't know the answer, but "We all ate together" gets close.

Exactly both the public and the financial industry are equally to blame, how many times have people laughed at the property photos on here where there's an Audi TT in the drive.

Equally the finance providers should have seen this coming, but when you're earning mega bonuses and the government is proclaiming an end to "boom and bust" and praising financial services for the strength of the economy who's going to be the lone voice saying "err...guys think we need to reign the lending in a bit, it's looking dangerous"

People have short memories here, wasn't many years ago everyone was angered by media reports of people with BTL empires "worth millions" or buying hot tubs and ultra large plasma's on credit or MEW, these are the people now filing through bankruptcy court.

I'm a big believer in the old adage "never ascribe to malice that which may equally be ascribed to incompetence"

Edited April 28, 2012 by madpenguin

[GBdamo]

I have thought carefully about this reply.

If people are greedy, and will not wait for something, then are bankers at fault? They played on those weaknesses, but the people who fell for it were not forced to do so. If you want a drink and a barman sells you what you want, is he at fault?

The weakness of human nature has been known throughout history and when you throw in crowd behaviour people become very easy to control. Kings, Popes, Dictators and despots throughout history have managed to get a mass of people to do what one sane individual would not do, it's easy and proven.

On an individual level ordinary people are not aware of this as they are not taught it so when the strings are pulled they are not aware they are being manipulated.

And it is a criminal offence to sell intoxicating liquor to a person who shows signs of excess intoxication, section 141 of the licensing act 2003.

Yes, bankers offered interest only mortgages, additional unsecured loans on top, they cut the repayment requirements on credit cards to keep the bubble going. central banks and regulators allowed all of this.

However, can you imagine the huge level of complaints from the public in any country that withdrew these products. We can see it now in the clamour for reduced LTV on mortgages and the complaints about the sudden unavailability of interest-only offers creating mortgage prisoners.

You keep looking at this from the point where these products are available. Before the deregulation of the City the banks had to hold on to their loans and as a result they self regulated.

There was a time when these products were not available, not out of any social conscience on the part of the banks but because they knew that when it went TU they'd be left holding the baby. When that risk went they went uber-preditor on the public by introducing products they knew to be highly questionable.

Are the bankers now at fault in their new-found prudence?

Only in that it should not be 'new found'.

It all comes down to a large element of greed and a failure of self-denial.

Absolutely, on an individual level people are responsible for themselves and their actions. When that greed is stoked by total media immersion aimed at creating a hive-like response as happened, and is still happening, with property porn on TV and the press the individual has two choices - be ostracised or become included - You don't want to miss the boat now do you?

You may not agree with me, but I would urge you to think about it. How many people were on the larger house with spare rooms and offices for both partners, several holidays a year, weekend breaks in Europe, new car every three years, kick? And how many paid for it all without using every available line of credit?

Many, in fact I was out last night with a couple who have had the credit rug pulled from underneath them. They were guilty of most the things you list above and are now having to repay. Do I blame them? Absolutely. I also know they were given more credit than they could repay, then sold consolidation loans by their banks that then went on to offer them more credit cards. The money they borrowed will still be around their necks in ten years time, they're almost certainly in big negative equity and they freely admit they were fools.

They were fools but as with the licensing act 2003 the banks should have a legal responsibility to lend sensibly.

Bankers or public? Chicken or egg? I don't know the answer, but "We all ate together" gets close.

There is no question at all, the bankers.

People are stupid and should not be taken advantage of.

We may well have eaten together but the banks do not seem to be being held to account for their part, in fact it seems to be business as usual - back to pre 1997 days.

The banks are acting like a dog that just smelt it's own fart, a glance back with a puzzled look then carry on as if nothing happened.

[motch]

That is the key, it was predatory. Just look at the credit card debt - different market, same issue. Bombard the population with zero percent offers, get the public to take it up until at some poit either the bank decides to up the rates having ensnared their debt pool or for the borrower to start defaulting on other obligations, miss payments and then hit them with charges.

Pure calculated greed and planned theft on the part of the banks, except it blew up in their face when they asked the taxpayer to pay for the bill, directly and through inflation, which the politicans and central bank obliged in spades.

As a postman we used to get trays and trays of letters of 0% credit card deals, and loan deals to most addresses, big boom up to 2007/2008 died down a lot since then..

[mfs1959]

You keep looking at this from the point where these products are available. Before the deregulation of the City the banks had to hold on to their loans and as a result they self regulated.

There was a time when these products were not available, not out of any social conscience on the part of the banks but because they knew that when it went TU they'd be left holding the baby. When that risk went they went uber-preditor on the public by introducing products they knew to be highly questionable.

I would debate whether deregulation was the problem or the tripartite system of regulatory control instituted in 1997. Before that date the Governor of the BofE could just call in the chairman of any bank offering dubious products and indicate disapproval, leading to the bank in question pulling the products. After 1997 3 bodies were in control; to be quite honest, it was a system set up to fail. If 3 bodies are responsible for something then no one is ultimately responsible. If the banks sense the loosening of the regulatory reins then they will let rip.

On one of your other points, I realise that bars can be liable for selling alcohol to someone already intoxicated; the difficult task is judging when the 'just one more' will tip them over the edge.

Edited April 28, 2012 by mfs1959

[Redcellar]

The weakness of human nature has been known throughout history and when you throw in crowd behaviour people become very easy to control. Kings, Popes, Dictators and despots throughout history have managed to get a mass of people to do what one sane individual would not do, it's easy and proven.

On an individual level ordinary people are not aware of this as they are not taught it so when the strings are pulled they are not aware they are being manipulated.

And it is a criminal offence to sell intoxicating liquor to a person who shows signs of excess intoxication, section 141 of the licensing act 2003.

You keep looking at this from the point where these products are available. Before the deregulation of the City the banks had to hold on to their loans and as a result they self regulated.

There was a time when these products were not available, not out of any social conscience on the part of the banks but because they knew that when it went TU they'd be left holding the baby. When that risk went they went uber-preditor on the public by introducing products they knew to be highly questionable.

Only in that it should not be 'new found'.

Absolutely, on an individual level people are responsible for themselves and their actions. When that greed is stoked by total media immersion aimed at creating a hive-like response as happened, and is still happening, with property porn on TV and the press the individual has two choices - be ostracised or become included - You don't want to miss the boat now do you?

Many, in fact I was out last night with a couple who have had the credit rug pulled from underneath them. They were guilty of most the things you list above and are now having to repay. Do I blame them? Absolutely. I also know they were given more credit than they could repay, then sold consolidation loans by their banks that then went on to offer them more credit cards. The money they borrowed will still be around their necks in ten years time, they're almost certainly in big negative equity and they freely admit they were fools.

They were fools but as with the licensing act 2003 the banks should have a legal responsibility to lend sensibly.

There is no question at all, the bankers.

People are stupid and should not be taken advantage of.

We may well have eaten together but the banks do not seem to be being held to account for their part, in fact it seems to be business as usual - back to pre 1997 days.

The banks are acting like a dog that just smelt it's own fart, a glance back with a puzzled look then carry on as if nothing happened.

So you are in fact saying we all contributed and not just the banks and politicians. Since the products they spend the money on also prey on people. Snapple phones, ABMW's and cruises around the world. They all sold the image of the life you should want and most also offered low or free credit to get it outside of the banking system. And since we all in some way supported this tripe we are all in it together.

Don't just focus on one element, being houses and mortgages, the whole lifestyle TV programming since childhood setup this predictable outcome and we all played a part in it. Thatcher was a major component with the yuppie get rich quick picture and everyone got greedy.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Redcellar