The Eagle Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) US and Europe have been made redundant, the former superpowers are no longer needed.Soon India will give handouts to the UK... Edited March 30, 2012 by awake_eagle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Competition? Is that allowed in the free market? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeryMeanReversion Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 US and Europe have been made redundant, the former superpowers are no longer needed. The US still has most of the real reserve currency ..... weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The US still has most of the real reserve currency ..... weapons. I don't know, China has a few of them too! The BRICs can do what they want, while they are still dependant on the developed countries as their export market, they will end up dancing to our tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) I don't know, China has a few of them too! The BRICs can do what they want, while they are still dependant on the developed countries as their export market, they will end up dancing to our tune. Precisely!, always amazes me that anyone commenting on the rise of the BRICS and so called "Tiger economies" always ignores where the money came from in the first place, if we stop buying, or bring the manufacturing and services home they would collapse back into obscurity. Many people in these countries have known severe economic hardship in their lifetimes, I doubt they will become the kind of consumers who will replace demand from the West in sufficient number to keep the factories running, they will be more inclined to put the money in the bank or invest it Edited March 30, 2012 by madpenguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R K Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Priceless. They'll be at war with each other before we're taking Rouble's or Yuan in payment for anything. Reading Putin's propoganda is bad for your mental health (unless he's paying you of course) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia O'Keeffe Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Precisely!, always amazes me that anyone commenting on the rise of the BRICS and so called "Tiger economies" always ignores where the money came from in the first place, if we stop buying, or bring the manufacturing and services home they would collapse back into obscurity. Many people in these countries have known severe economic hardship in their lifetimes, I doubt they will become the kind of consumers who will replace demand from the West in sufficient number to keep the factories running, they will be more inclined to put the money in the bank or invest it ahh the usual hubris, we're great we are. the numbers are pretty clear and have been for years, both educationally and wealth wise, the middle classes in the BRICS are growing, in the west they are shrinking from a combination of deflation/stagflation, theres bitching on this site every day about how its not fair, as their middle classes grow it will naturally create internal demand as it has in every other country in History, as they fall in the west it will eventually reduce external demand and trade will somewhat relatively balance as far as it can outside of free markets, at some point in the future as will wealth, what will always determine who is successful and who falls by the wayside in both the West and Brics has bugger all to do with whats happened in the past but everything to do with what happens going forward and whats been happening, the wealthiest countries as ever will be those that are least corrupt and strike a reasonable internal wealth disparity balance. As far as I can see it’s the corruption in the west that has rocketed in the last decade and continues at a rate of knots which is why the political disharmony is rocketing their, in some of the secondary/tertiary countries it has/is falling, in some it remains the same Edited March 30, 2012 by Georgia O'Keeffe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Reading Putin's propoganda is bad for your mental health No worse than reading the propaganda of Camoron or Obama (or any of the Euro fools for that matter). Indeed, in many ways, Putin talks a lot more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 ahh the usual hubris, we're great we are. the numbers are pretty clear and have been for years, both educationally and wealth wise, the middle classes in the BRICS are growing, in the west they are shrinking from a combination of deflation/stagflation, theres bitching on this site every day about how its not fair, as their middle classes grow it will create internal demand, as they fall in the west it will eventually reduce external demand and trade will somewhat relatively balance at some point in the future as will wealth, what will determine who is successful and who falls by the wayside in both the West and Brics has bugger all to do with whats happened in the past but everything to do with what happens going forward and whats been happening, the wealthiest countries as ever will be those that are least corrupt and strike a reasonable internal wealth disparity / economic rent balance. As far as I can see it’s the corruption in the west that has rocketed in the last decade and continues at a rate of knots, in some of the secondary/tertiary countries it has fallen, in some it remains the same And of course Russia, India and China are paragons of virtue with no corruption of any kind whatsoever China and Russia may have a chance, India..unless they change radically will slide back into obscurity, having more poverty than any other country (including Africa) is no basis for establishing an economic powerhouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia O'Keeffe Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) And of course Russia, India and China are paragons of virtue with no corruption of any kind whatsoever China and Russia may have a chance, India..unless they change radically will slide back into obscurity, having more poverty than any other country (including Africa) is no basis for establishing an economic powerhouse Which is why i highlighted the wealthiest countries will be those that have a reasonable gini and lowest corruption and stated some places its reducing, some its unchanged and some it been rocketing (most notably the West). Im not picking winners and losers, im just stating the ultimate reality Edited March 30, 2012 by Georgia O'Keeffe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Which is why i highlighted the wealthiest countries will be those that have a reasonable gini and lowest corruption and stated some places its reducing, some its unchanged and some it been rocketing (most notably the West). Im not picking winners and losers, im just stating the ultimate reality If you suggest that economic success is somehow linked to low corruption I would suggest you are ignoring several thousand years of human history, and would also suggest you never get a job in either sales or politics Corruption in one persons dictionary could be called expediency in anothers. Look at any great economic empire and tell me corruption didn't play a big part in it's development, the recent Wikileaks papers on how the US operates show this clearly. The British Empire virtually ran on bribes to local potentates and warlords Edited March 30, 2012 by madpenguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 If you suggest that economic success is somehow linked to low corruption I would suggest you are ignoring several thousand years of human history, and would also suggest you never get a job in either sales or politics Corruption in one persons dictionary could be called expediency in anothers. Look at any great economic empire and tell me corruption didn't play a big part in it's development, the recent Wikileaks papers on how the US operates show this clearly. The British Empire virtually ran on bribes to local potentates and warlords I would say complacency, sense of entitlement and hubris are they key to determine who are the winners and losers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) I would say complacency, sense of entitlement and hubris are they key to determine who are the winners and losers. Winning means you actually do, or produce something in the first place which other people want, of course resting on your laurels will lead to failure. Most of the products originating from the East were developed in the West, being a cheap source of labour doesn't guarantee economic success, and in any case inflation in the BRICS is starting to erode the low wage cost advantages, certainly in countries like India this is already happening The rising cost of oil will also make shipping products round the world less sensible as time goes on. The growth of advanced automation will also almost certainly hurt economies reliant on plentiful cheap labour in time, I heard a Government minister recently saying that some manufacturing was already returning to the UK, it wasn't bringing many jobs however as it was heavily automated. Robots don't need wages, or ask for time off, they only need maintenance Edited March 30, 2012 by madpenguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I don't know, China has a few of them too! Not a military expert but the last time I saw figures for the Chinese they had surprisingly weak forces with respect to the global theatre. OK, they had huge numbers of infantry and tanks but next to no way of projecting their power other than rolling over their borders to invade neighbouring countries. Bad news for their neighbours, not much for us to worry about. Their navy wasn't much to shout about either but most importantly, relatively few nukes and again no way to deliver them over long distances. Of course all this can be rectified and they have the money and productive capacity to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Winning means you actually do, or produce something in the first place which other people want, of course resting on your laurels will lead to failure. Most of the products originating from the East were developed in the West, being a cheap source of labour doesn't guarantee economic success, and in any case inflation in the BRICS is starting to erode the low wage cost advantages, certainly in countries like India this is already happening The rising cost of oil will also make shipping products round the world less sensible as time goes on. The growth of advanced automation will also almost certainly hurt economies reliant on plentiful cheap labour in time, I heard a Government minister recently saying that some manufacturing was already returning to the UK, it wasn't bringing many jobs however as it was heavily automated. Robots don't need wages, or ask for time off, they only need maintenance I've often worried why the West doesn't just push ahead full steam with automation. I guess it's still cheaper to exploit third world denizens in abject poverty and ship the goods halfway around the planet than it is to tool up assembly lines full of robots here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) I've often worried why the West doesn't just push ahead full steam with automation. I guess it's still cheaper to exploit third world denizens in abject poverty and ship the goods halfway around the planet than it is to tool up assembly lines full of robots here. I think it's because the technology hasn't been quite at the point they need it until recently, ironically scandals (whether real or imagined) at companies like Foxcon will mean that companies will have to reduce competitiveness, by introducing better working conditions (not saying this is a bad thing, just that the reason many companies went east in the first place was laxer employee protection, if regulation is the same in China as in the US or UK it removes another incentive for companies to offshore, and wages in the East are rising). Ironically capitalism and globalisation's gift to the world may well be socialism, when most work is either offshored to the cheapest wage areas or automated it's either that or mass genocide of some kind, or a Charles Dickens style world of poverty, starvation and crime for those without jobs. Don't think they will go the genocide route, industry needs consumers even if they are on minimum wage. Edited March 30, 2012 by madpenguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) I think it's because the technology hasn't been quite at the point they need it until recently, ironically scandals (whether real or imagined) at companies like Foxcon will mean that companies will have to reduce competitiveness, by introducing better working conditions (not saying this is a bad thing, just that the reason many companies went east in the first place was laxer employee protection, if regulation is the same in China as in the US or UK it removes another incentive for companies to offshore, and wages in the East are rising). Ironically capitalism and globalisation's gift to the world may well be socialism, when most work is either offshored to the cheapest wage areas or automated it's either that or mass genocide of some kind, or a Charles Dickens style world of poverty, starvation and crime for those without jobs. Don't think they will go the genocide route, industry needs consumers even if they are on minimum wage. Indeed. Unemployment (especially amongst the young) is as high as ever, yet we’re swimming in superfluous goods as productivity increases exponentially regardless. Demand is still needed though for this to work, so as a side effect I expect to see the continued increase in drill and fill in jobs to artificially create it. Only thanks to the deficit hysteria, this burden will all be on the private sector. Edited March 30, 2012 by PopGun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwatkins Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 ahh the usual hubris, we're great we are. the numbers are pretty clear and have been for years, both educationally and wealth wise, the middle classes in the BRICS are growing, in the west they are shrinking from a combination of deflation/stagflation, theres bitching on this site every day about how its not fair, as their middle classes grow it will naturally create internal demand as it has in every other country in History, as they fall in the west it will eventually reduce external demand and trade will somewhat relatively balance as far as it can outside of free markets, at some point in the future as will wealth, what will always determine who is successful and who falls by the wayside in both the West and Brics has bugger all to do with whats happened in the past but everything to do with what happens going forward and whats been happening, the wealthiest countries as ever will be those that are least corrupt and strike a reasonable internal wealth disparity balance. As far as I can see it’s the corruption in the west that has rocketed in the last decade and continues at a rate of knots which is why the political disharmony is rocketing their, in some of the secondary/tertiary countries it has/is falling, in some it remains the same Go ahead and write off the US. Me? I wouldn't bet on anybody beating the US economically within the next three decades. Industry is coming back in the US and development of natural gas and oil shale technology will soon have OPEC pretty much redundant as far as Uncle Sam is concerned. I see it first hand in the US, not from some barmy self-serving conference of the upstarts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwatkins Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Winning means you actually do, or produce something in the first place which other people want, of course resting on your laurels will lead to failure. Most of the products originating from the East were developed in the West, being a cheap source of labour doesn't guarantee economic success, and in any case inflation in the BRICS is starting to erode the low wage cost advantages, certainly in countries like India this is already happening The rising cost of oil will also make shipping products round the world less sensible as time goes on. The growth of advanced automation will also almost certainly hurt economies reliant on plentiful cheap labour in time, I heard a Government minister recently saying that some manufacturing was already returning to the UK, it wasn't bringing many jobs however as it was heavily automated. Robots don't need wages, or ask for time off, they only need maintenance Problem is though that I understand they are tight asses with their money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Problem is though that I understand they are tight asses with their money. As I said in a later post: "Ironically capitalism and globalisation's gift to the world may well be socialism, when most work is either offshored to the cheapest wage areas or automated it's either that or mass genocide of some kind, or a Charles Dickens style world of poverty, starvation and crime for those without jobs Don't think they will go the genocide route, industry needs consumers even if they are on minimum wage. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Democorruptcy Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Which is why i highlighted the wealthiest countries will be those that have a reasonable gini and lowest corruption Which countries will be part of this utopia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The BRICS are probably fed up of bailing out the Euro Zone. As for the US they have the economic, political and social fundamentals to be last man standing Any other analysis is just left wing fantasy thinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Not a military expert but the last time I saw figures for the Chinese they had surprisingly weak forces with respect to the global theatre. OK, they had huge numbers of infantry and tanks but next to no way of projecting their power other than rolling over their borders to invade neighbouring countries. Bad news for their neighbours, not much for us to worry about. Their navy wasn't much to shout about either but most importantly, relatively few nukes and again no way to deliver them over long distances. Of course all this can be rectified and they have the money and productive capacity to do so. I understand the general idea of what you're saying but they aren't an entirely primitive force just relying on infantry numbers. https:// upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/China_Xichang_Satellite_Center_-_Tianlian_I-01_Launch.jpg Their navy might not be that strong but they have nuclear ballistic missile submarines etc. Edited March 30, 2012 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Just watched Naill Fergusons 3 part series on China Which just reinforced my view that China is heading for serious trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Just watched Naill Fergusons 3 part series on China Which just reinforced my view that China is heading for serious trouble. Please tell me which major state is not heading for serious trouble of one form or another.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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