What Will Be The New Labour Spin On

[MarkG]

Property has and always will rise.

Tell that to the Japanese. Or the people who spent years in negative equity in the last crash. Or the people whose houses were reposessed in the last crash. Or the people who saw their neighbourhood infested with chav-scum that brought the value of their property down to zero.

"Property has and always will rise" is a fantasy pushed by people who want to make money selling property, not a law of nature.

Property is one of the best purchases one can make in ones life

Why? A house is a place to live... the _less_ I have to pay for it, the better.

I would challenge anyone to show how property has not risen from the year 1946 to the present day.

A time of massive wage inflation, when my parents' mortage was inflated away from a large fraction of their salary to, basically, nothing. That's not likely to happen to current buyers, as much as they hope it will.

not only can you utilise it you can also profit from it.

Sure, provided you don't mind living in a cardboard box after you sell it. The only people who benefit from an increase in the value of their house are the ones who sell up and move to a much cheaper area. The rest suffer horribly if they want to trade up to a better house in the area where they live.

There is no other single purchase that produces such wealth

What 'wealth' does a house produce?

[Randall Herbert]

Property is not a Gamble at all, its a plain fact that housing is a scarce resource and a resource in demand. On those points houses will always rise and as such there will be winners and losers.

Bricks and Mortar are all that the economy of this nation is built on, its greatest money generating asset is the construction industry and the property market.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If its not a gamble? how can there be losers as well as winners?

Housing never was scarce and certainly isnt today. Anyone seen a EA recently with an empty window?

The economy of this nation is currently built upon hot air, spin and huge quantities of personal debt. Nice solid foundations in other words.

D- Laurejon. Dont waste our time with mindless drivel like this.

[FernandoMorientes]

And your evidence for government corruption and greed is...? The Labour government has its faults, but it's not as corrupt as the Tory government, which wasn't very corrupt itself. The UK is one of the least corrupt countries on the planet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Manifesto "New Labour" the most effective since the Vikings....featuring rape, pillage, murder!

1/ Iraq WMD (where are they....LIES)

2/ The creation of mass jobs for the public sector (what do they do)?

3/ Stealth tax (ahhh it pays for the lemmings above, paid for by the lemmings who voted for NL)!

4/ BTL (Go Cherie go)

5/ Immigration (LIES)

6/ NHS (more LIES)

7/ Crime (Yep they are good at that even murdered the weapons inspector)!

8/ Mandelson, Campell, Brown, Blunkett (its not even his)

9/ Socialism (what socialism exactly what does "new labour" stand for....)???

10/ The biggest of the lot....BLAIR!

Good luck to the knuckle scraping public who will be off to the polls to tick a box for "new labour"

[VacantPossession]

Property has and always will rise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the main yes that is true. But you forget a vital part of that equation. For each property rise for those that have owned for a long time, that also makes it more expensive for those yet to buy. So the "profit" at the top is always offset by the increased liability at the bottom.

A bit like public school bullying really. The new boy is mercilessly treated by the "prefect", and then grows to be a prefect himself and bullies the next new boy in line.

Of course this gives an illusion to those at the top of the pyramid that there is real profit, and indeed there is if you cash it in. But this is DIRECTLY paid for by the higher price for those joining the Pyramid at the bottom.

Where it goes wrong is that the top of the Pyramid people become too greedy and the bottom lot can't afford to climb on. This is where your theory that property is always going "up" collapses, because when this point is reached the pyramid falls down. It has nothing much to do with immigration (a popular myth here), or even interest rates. It is a matter of the price being unsustainable.

If you think this kind of cycle is desirable, logical or constructive in a democratic society then I disagree. We need to take property out of that cycle, if only to encourage people to invest in real industry, not a "pretend" industry where in the end no-one gains.

VP

[Control Freak]

Manifesto "New Labour" the most effective since the Vikings....featuring rape, pillage, murder!

1/ Iraq    WMD (where are they....LIES)

2/ The creation of mass jobs for the public sector (what do they do)?

3/ Stealth tax (ahhh it pays for the lemmings above, paid for by the lemmings who voted for NL)!

4/ BTL (Go Cherie go)

5/ Immigration (LIES)

6/ NHS (more LIES)

7/ Crime (Yep they are good at that even murdered the weapons inspector)!

8/  Mandelson, Campell, Brown, Blunkett (its not even his)

9/ Socialism (what socialism exactly what does "new labour" stand for....)???

10/ The biggest of the lot....BLAIR!

Good luck to the knuckle scraping public who will be off to the polls to tick a box for "new labour"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that you forgot about Bernie Ecclestones million quid; the Hinduja brothers passport fiasco; Extreme right-wing Home Secretaries (more so than the tories ever were); Gordon Brown selling off our gold reserve at the bottom of the market and then buying Euros with the proceedings at a crap rate also; The numerous sleazy affairs of cabinet ministers - Cook, Blunkett, Davies; Expanding unelected quangos....... I could go on..........

[TWOPEY]

By asking the original question can I assume that you think Labour will win the election? I am not so sure anymore.

Interestingly Stuart Wheeler the founder of IG Index the spread betting firm is so convinced the Tories will win he has set up an account with his own company and is taking bets from all comers that the Tories will win by 50 seat margin.

Apparently he is some sort of legendary gambler who rarely loses.

Are you sure this is for a general election ?

Do you have a link to the story ?

Is this bet open to everyone ?

I'd be really grateful if you could reply - Cheers

[TWOPEY]

Re above

S'OK - I've found the story....

Got the worng end of the stick there for a second... Oh well..

[laurejon]

The labour party is headed up by a confirmed war criminal.

That in itself it enough for me to say "You must be joking" when I see his name at the ballot box.

However given that most Evil people are maybe not all bad I look deeper and what do I find.

Students lied to over fees.

Public Lied to over Immigration

Public Lied to over the Health Service

Public Lied to over the Transport Services

Public Lied to over other parties policies

Now if I were sitting in the Jury at a trial how would I find the defendent.

Its a resounding Guilty!!!!!!!.

There is absolutely no comparison with Tony Blair and the Conservatives when they were in office, and the only time that you will wake up and realise that is when you are in prison having been taken from your home without charges and without the opportunity to defend yourself in a court of law.

Democracy has now been deleted by the Labour Party and I for one refuse to sign up to it.

[laurejon]

Opps I forgot

Public lied to over Council Tax

Public Lied to over Income Tax

Public Lied to over NI contributions

Shall we go on ?.

[laurejon]

In the main yes that is true. But you forget a vital part of that equation. For each property rise for those that have owned for a long time, that also makes it more expensive for those yet to buy. So the "profit" at the top is always offset by the increased liability at the bottom.

A bit like public school bullying really. The new boy is mercilessly treated by the "prefect", and then grows to be a prefect himself and bullies the next new boy in line.

Of course this gives an illusion to those at the top of the pyramid that there is real profit, and indeed there is if you cash it in. But this is DIRECTLY paid for by the higher price for those joining the Pyramid at the bottom.

Where it goes wrong is that the top of the Pyramid people become too greedy and the bottom lot can't afford to climb on. This is where your theory that property is always going "up" collapses, because when this point is reached the pyramid falls down. It has nothing much to do with immigration (a popular myth here), or even interest rates. It is a matter of the price being unsustainable.

If you think this kind of cycle is desirable, logical or constructive in a democratic society then I disagree. We need to take property out of that cycle, if only to encourage people to invest in real industry, not a "pretend" industry where in the end no-one gains.

I am well aware of the fact that someones gain in the property market is someones loss.

However that is life and nothing is fair.

I dont think its fair that I pay nearly 2K per month in taxes and Ni to find I dont have a dentist, or I wait a year to get into hospital.

I dont think its fair that students pay for education yet pay it again in taxation throughout their working lives.

I dont think its fair that thousands of Iraqi civilians have been murdered by New Labour yet the British Public will vote them in again.

But can we do about it, well nothing at all they have the popular vote and we live in a democracy.

What we have to do is make the best of a bad thing, and if that means making money at someone elses expense then so be it. Employers have been doing it for years, why can we not go it alone and do it for oursleves.

As for property does not always rise, well it surely does.

As for houseprice affordability we are now seeing wage inflation of 4% and that over time will increase. Sure something will have to give at some stage but its a way off yet.

High interest rates, coupled with unemployment on a grand scale are the only factors I work on in predicting a crash and that today looks even further from reality.

[OnlyMe]

Laurejon, just in case you missed any out

Blair: NHS dentistry for all

BLAIR PROMISES AN END TO COUNCIL CORRUPTION

Blair promises maximum 18-week hospital wait

Blair promises 'ubiquitous Internet' by 2005 - silicon.com

Blair promises total broadband coverage by 2008

Blair promises memorable Olympic games

Blair promises postwar Iraq will be run by Iraqis

Blair promises inquiry on intelligence, but insists Saddam

Blair Promises Full Inquiry Into British Arms ...

Blair promises inquiry into Kelly

Blair promises to publish Iraq evidence

Blair promises to empower regions

Blair promises tight rein in third term - Management Consultancy

Blair promises more radical reform of public services

Blair promises record investment in schools and hospitals

Blair promises 5,000 more police

Blair promises one PC for every five kids - vnunet.com

Blair promises tight rein in third term

Blair finds a place for science in third term promises

[Randall Herbert]

Opps I forgot

Public lied to over Council Tax

Public Lied to over Income Tax

Public Lied to over NI contributions

Shall we go on ?.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes lets go on and on and on.... :-)

Phoney Bliar is really pissed at the house of Lords for not supporting his new (ridiculous) anti terrorism bill and it is likely to get kicked right back into the Commons again soon with yet another rejection. Should we expect the tanks to roll out to Heathrow again soon or will he be forced to take more 'serious' measures to convince us of our imminent (45minute? ) demise this time?

Tanks? Surely it was only the Eastern block who used tanks as a show of strength to supress their peoples?

[MarkG]

they have the popular vote

No they don't. If I remember correctly, only about 25% of eligible voters voted for NuLab... yet they got a huge majority. I believe that nearly 50% of eligible voters didn't vote at all, because there was nothing they could do to change the results.

and we live in a democracy

No we don't. We live in an antiquated and corrupt serial tyranny where votes outside marginal constituencies are basically worthless.

Democracy is a horrible form of government, but it would certainly be better than what we have.

[Guest muttley]

You may be being a bit harsh on New Labour.Remember Tony's "Tough on crime,tough on the causes of crime"?

Well,today,in response to public concern over the spiralling increase in knife-related crime New Labour got tough.

They have proposed that the legal age for buying a knife be raised from 16 to 18.

I'm just going to check the back door.

[gone west]

I'm just going to check the back door.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Said the bishop to the vicker.

Oh I am on a roll today! Somebody stop me...

[VacantPossession]

I am well aware of the fact that someones gain in the property market is someones loss.

However that is life and nothing is fair.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well in that case you can't have it both ways Laurejon. By your logic then your disgust at Blair being a "war criminal" is "thats life" and again by your own standards "nothing is fair". In that case let's all go round doing exactly what WE like and stuff the consequences. I don't think you agree with that. Yet somehow with property it's a case of "that's how it is". Do you not see a little inconsistency there?

VP

[laurejon]

Well in that case you can't have it both ways Laurejon. By your logic then your disgust at Blair being a "war criminal" is "thats life" and again by your own standards "nothing is fair". In that case let's all go round doing exactly what WE like and stuff the consequences. I don't think you agree with that. Yet somehow with property it's a case of "that's how it is". Do you not see a little inconsistency there?

There is a stark contrast between killing women and children and buying a house form under the feet of a FTB'er or a struggling couple.

Another point with BTL'ers would be that if they purchased then knocked them down they would indeed be depriving people of housing. The fact is they are providing a service and from reading the posts on the board from those that rent a very good service as the renters are convinced they are on a good deal.

So in effect everyone is happy.

Just out of interest, do you believe TB to be a War Criminal ?.

[VacantPossession]

Laurejon, just in case you missed any out  

Blair: NHS dentistry for all

BLAIR PROMISES AN END TO COUNCIL CORRUPTION

Blair promises maximum 18-week hospital wait

Blair promises 'ubiquitous Internet' by 2005 - silicon.com

Blair promises total broadband coverage by 2008

Blair promises memorable Olympic games

Blair promises postwar Iraq will be run by Iraqis

Blair promises inquiry on intelligence, but insists Saddam

Blair Promises Full Inquiry Into British Arms ...

Blair promises inquiry into Kelly

Blair promises to publish Iraq evidence

Blair promises to empower regions

Blair promises tight rein in third term - Management Consultancy

Blair promises more radical reform of public services

Blair promises record investment in schools and hospitals

Blair promises 5,000 more police

Blair promises one PC for every five kids - vnunet.com

Blair promises tight rein in third term

Blair finds a place for science in third term promises

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only one argument with all that:

"Blair promises one PC for every five kids - vnunet.com"

Yes, pity it isn't "Blair promises 10 books for every kid". Computers for schools is the biggest red herring in the history of education. The notion that computers make kids in Hackney more "cultured", more "knowledgeable", more "capable" or more "educated" represents the worst policy of modern educational history. Most poor families do not lack a computer; they lack books, which is why functional illiteracy is on the rise. Everyone thinks computers solve it. They make it worse. And I own 4 computers. But happily I also own several hundred books.

VP

[VacantPossession]

Just out of interest, do you believe TB  to be a War Criminal ?.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think there is a case to answer. However I do not think Blair is a war criminal in the sense that Stalin was. I think his motive was sincerely held, and that he did not seek to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people. Yet his policy, with the agreement of many others, did lead to that, so in conclusion, yes I think he is an indictable war criminal....as is Bush.

VP

[laurejon]

I agree with you Computers are completely overated and offer a fraction of the learning opportunities.

I have thousands of CBT disks (Computer Based Training) and yet time and time again find books by far the best way to learn.

In fact Computers have created slaves, jobs staring into a screen all day browsing usless information.

[VacantPossession]

I agree with you Computers are completely overated and offer a fraction of the learning opportunities.

I have thousands of CBT disks (Computer Based Training) and yet time and time again find books by far the best way to learn.

In fact Computers have created slaves, jobs staring into a screen all day browsing usless information.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well at least we agree on one thing!

VP

[laurejon]

When I first started in the IT business I can remember my partner who also worked in IT telling me that she had lost her creative ability. Prior to retraining she had be involved in the fashion business as a buyer working for a number of large companies in London.

And several years later I think she is right. Many people that I work with tell me the same thing. In fact one particular person I work with used to write science fiction novels for a hobby. In conversation last week he said he tried and couldnt get two pages together.

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

I'd agree that computers as learning tools are pretty daft, particularly the pointless use of IT in schools (electronic white boards???), or the kind of naff Level One computer training laid on my companies.

Beyond that, I think you people are using the wrong computer if you believe it's a barrier to creativity.

Get a bleeding Mac, for gawdsake.

They only cost 339 quid nowadays.

[apom]

Any predictions on how Tony, Gordon, Ttwo fat Jags etc will present the unavoidable inevitability of the latest houseprice crash to the nation when they can't hide their dirty deed any longer?

I seem to recall Two Fat Jags stating last year that "of course we inherited the housing market bubble from the Tories" over a year ago now.

Might have to kill more than just a weapons inspector to get out of this one? :angry:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The way I look at it.. okay the bubble was artificially created so that people would spend the country out of the recession.. granted this spending was against percieved values of homes and unfortunatly the country has gone 500 billion more into debt (personal) since labour got in.. its now a trillion.. but it doubled in this governments term.

That is very serious.

I am a professional I can't afford any sort of home.. that is a common cry here..

You can't because of governmental decisions..

also now you can't because of dodgy mortgages.

Everyone knows that all bright investors left the show over a year ago..

Now my friends you are competing against Fraudulent mortages.. and you can't compete against that..

It is illegal..

so get it stopped. Its fraud (Self Cert used inproperly)

The police have to investigate fraud. if they don't they are complicit to a fraud..

Which is a crime..

They own properties, they are profiting from a fraud that they are complicit to.

So approach the police, ask them to put a stop to this. If they don't, mention the above, and insist. if they still refuse then you are legally obliged to place the police under citizens arrest.. (good luck with that one.. granted)

but as strange as this sounds, this fraud is hurting you and can be stopped.

The above is true.. it is the law..

[Spoony]

I think they will blame the crash on the economy slowing, due to rising oil prices. And they will probably make the annoucement on a day when there is something else big happening in the news. Typical Labour PR trick, remember Sept 11th, Jo Moore and her "Good day to bury bad news"

?

Laurejon, just in case you missed any out

Blair: NHS dentistry for all

BLAIR PROMISES AN END TO COUNCIL CORRUPTION

Blair promises maximum 18-week hospital wait

Blair promises 'ubiquitous Internet' by 2005 - silicon.com

Blair promises total broadband coverage by 2008

Blair promises memorable Olympic games

Blair promises postwar Iraq will be run by Iraqis

Blair promises inquiry on intelligence, but insists Saddam

Blair Promises Full Inquiry Into British Arms ...

Blair promises inquiry into Kelly

Blair promises to publish Iraq evidence

Blair promises to empower regions

Blair promises tight rein in third term - Management Consultancy

Blair promises more radical reform of public services

Blair promises record investment in schools and hospitals

Blair promises 5,000 more police

Blair promises one PC for every five kids - vnunet.com

Blair promises tight rein in third term

Blair finds a place for science in third term promises

I will add to this from my perspective. I can remember most of new labours pre-election manifesto promises. About the only thing that they have managed to deliver from that is the Fox hunting ban. And that was years too late, plus it is not even a total ban and not enforced. Hunts still go on.

Lets see now, "Education, education education", said Mr Blair. What do we have? Class sizes are higher still, we have teachers being made redundant, kids who can't read or write properly as they go to their secondary schools.

We have the NHS that they pledged to sort out. MRSA rife, and waiting lists up, up up - down a bit recently but no real improvement compared to before Labour came to power. Specluation that they are about to lay off lots of NHS staff.

Blair said, "Tough on crime and the causes of crime". Guess what, violent crime rising and rising since they got in, to the point where I don't feel like going out drinking anymore. Too dodgy. Every week there seems to be a shooting, stabbing, rape, mugging in my city or close by. I have never felt more unsafe to be walking around at night. I felt much safer walking around New York. So that tells you something about here now.

And no wonder crime is rising when there is no deterrent. Especially hooded feral youths who are given a few hours community service instead of jail. Muggers, and killers go effectively scot free. Meanwhile motorists who go a few mph over the limit are locked up and so are pensioners over £35 of unpaid council tax. Its costing more to send them to jail. How crazy is this? This country is out of control. There are so many asylum seekers all over the place creaming off our taxes. Income (sorry NI) tax up. Another broken Labour promise on taxes.

Council tax has never been higher, and my councils services standards have never been poorer. Way above inflation rises every year since Labour got in. Tax up, value for money, down. God, if the poll tax protesters could have seen how things would be now they would have packed up and gone home, paid the tax and said 'bargain'.

Meanwhile we will have to work until we are at least 70, thanks to Gordon Browns multi million stealth tax raid on Pensions.

Congestion charges, Pay as you drive plans to further fleece the motorist.

I could go on another 5 pages but I haven't got the time. However the latest addition to the list of Labour great ideas is to put lives at risk by having regional call centres for the fire service. Great. They say that the new technology will give the same great service that we currently get with the local call centres. Is that the same technology that they use at the Police when I ring my 'local' number to report a crime in my area but the operator is 40 miles away and does not know anything about my City???

Somebody give me a reason to stay in this rapidly declining, overpriced country because I can't think of any.

Edited October 11, 2005 by Spoony