Morocco...prices Plumet.

[agtisch]

please dont all fall out, (like, you know, properly fall out)....i love these exchanges!

[BigLog]

It was clear from the quote within my post that BigLog was spelling monitor.

Who cares what you think ?

You're just as much a VI as Dogbox, I don't see vested interest behaviour in anything Catara or JoN say/have said.

Dogbox compares Sardinia, which he states (thanks to HIS recent experience/visit there) as being like in a 3rd world country, yet; 1) vehemently rejects ANY TRUTHS that anyone else says about the 3rd world country he is ACTUALLY BUYING into (one that he has NEVER been to) and 2) makes a long DUMB comparison list about a place that hasn't even been built yet (and is very far from completion).

I think Euroscooby, you are the Dull one.

[dogbox]

Dogbox, welcome back! The forum was getting too quiet.

None of us know how the property market will play out in Morocco and Saidia (or anywhere else for that matter).

But what the past year has thrown up are some of the risks that off-plan property investors need to think about when they invest.

On the plus side, property prices have generally increased around the world despite the predictions of a crash.

More recently, though, prices have begun to fall in some countries and Morocco will not be immune to this.

Also, interest rates have risen, shares have wobbled a lot and the US credit crunch may still cause a lot more problems.

At Saidia, there have been significant building delays and confusion around rental arrangements.

Two other key factors during this time are the lack of interest being earned on deposits and lack of bank guarantees.

I've had a look at the prices on the golf villas this week and anyone who reserved at the June 2006 prices wanting to get out now would suffer a loss (after expenses).

Dogbox, given that there isn't really a secondary market yet and won't be for a number of years, when you originally invested would you have been happy with the current state of affairs overall?

I did'nt really expect a secondary market yet, so no worries (although I reckon I could flip my £168 villa for cica £210,000.

Building delays - GREAT, I've only parted with 20% and have been buying for over a year. Always delays with new projects so to be expected anyway.

Shares wobbling, credit crunch - just the fabric of life and not something to deter me - throughout history there are always issues but in the end you have to take action or you do nothing. Read the other day about some American lady that owns a $5bn portfolio of US property ("taxes are for the little people" - that lady), no doubt she bought during the OPEC crisis, Vietnam war, early 1980s and 1990 property crashes, DOT COME bust, Y2K, Iraq Iran wars, Iraq desert storm 1991, lots of stock market wobbles, AIDs, WW3 prospect, and on and on. All just noise really that investors have to see through.

I look for value and prospects, the noise will come and go.

Value is outstanding but wont be fully realised until end users are using the site.

So yes I'm very happy with the investment.

[BigLog]

I did'nt really expect a secondary market yet, so no worries (although I reckon I could flip my £168 villa for cica £210,000.

So yes I'm very happy with the investment.

Truth at last ?? Still trust this Liar/Joker/Ramper ??

[dogbox]

and 2) makes a long DUMB comparison list about a place that hasn't even been built yet (and is very far from completion).

Whether it's a new business investment or an offplan property it is surely valid to extrapolate some sense of comparitive value?

I make evidence based value judgements. I have'nt been to the moon but I've a fair idea what it's like. I have'nt been to the Great Barrier Reef, but again I think I could make a pretty good call.

To expand your argument I should wait until the place is built, but the problem is I would not have been able to secure the particular property for the price I did.

Comparing my recent experience as an end user in Sardinia is sound. The experience of talking with other holiday makers (ie end users) further under - pinned the attractiveness of a project like Saidia.

Biglog the issue you deride me over constantly is my failure to visit so far.

[BigLog]

Whether it's a new business investment or an offplan property it is surely valid to extrapolate some sense of comparitive value?

I make evidence based value judgements. I have'nt been to the moon but I've a fair idea what it's like. I have'nt been to the Great Barrier Reef, but again I think I could make a pretty good call.

To expand your argument I should wait until the place is built, but the problem is I would not have been able to secure the particular property for the price I did.

Comparing my recent experience as an end user in Sardinia is sound. The experience of talking with other holiday makers (ie end users) further under - pinned the attractiveness of a project like Saidia.

Biglog the issue you deride me over constantly is my failure to visit so far.

Are you acting at being thick, or does it come naturally ? Seriously.

I'm sorry for the insult, but you are insulting me with this awful nonsense about the Moon (people been there, taken pictures, written about it etc), The Great Barrier Reef (people been there, taken pictures, written about it etc) with your Saidia Villa, which doesn't exist, you've never been there - therefore you MUST STOP talking about it as though it DOES.

DON'T talk about SAIDIA Marina being the BIGGEST/BEST, as it DOES NOT EXIST (IN FULL) YET (how many boats are moored there at the moment ??).

DON'T talk about SAIDIA HOTELS, GOLF COURSES and their QUALITY, because THEY DON'T YET EXIST and you CANNOT therefore COMPARE something which EXISTS (e.g. Sardinia, or spanish golf courses) with something which DOES NOT.

DON'T COMPARE COSTS with Sardinia (or other places) with costs for YOUR VILLA in Saidia as YOUR VILLA ISN'T BUILT AND FINISHED YET.

DO compare YOUR Sardinia Villa with OTHER EXISTING (not new build) Saidia Villas. I think you'll find Saidia cheaper, but then I KNOW where I'd rather go.

The issues I deride you under is that you talk about a place you do not know at all well, and I was always sure you always intended to flip (no one, except the very rich buy holiday homes in countries they've never visited - NO ONE).

Now, let's wait for The Soup Dragon and Euroscooby to come to your rescue.......

Edited August 29, 2007 by BigLog

[The Soup Dragon]

Euroscooby. If, as you say, we have seen the end of the off-plan investors in Saidia then why do you expect the next wave to come in when the properties are still being built? (This is still off-plan.) Also, why do they make less money? If nobody buys between now and then will prices not be the same or lower for them?

I can see the points you are trying to make and agree, just pointing out the contradictions made.

[euroscooby]

Euroscooby. If, as you say, we have seen the end of the off-plan investors in Saidia then why do you expect the next wave to come in when the properties are still being built? (This is still off-plan.) Also, why do they make less money? If nobody buys between now and then will prices not be the same or lower for them?

I can see the points you are trying to make and agree, just pointing out the contradictions made.

At last a serious debate.

Well my view is that by Spring 2008 the Barcelo Hotel (5 star) will be complete and getting up to speed. The first phase of FADESA apartments will be finished and the commercial centre/beach bars will begin to open for Summer 2008. In addition the marina will begin to fill.

As always those without the 'brass balls' to buy off-plan (and yes it is an investment risk) will have a clearer idea of what the finished article will look like. They often pay more at this point. The developer can raise prices as the new buyer has something tangible to look at and see its not all one big scam!

Of course depending on the knock on of the credit crunch it may mean that price increases do not occur at this point.

[dogbox]

No plans to flip, read it again, I said if I wanted I suspect I could make a modest increase.

Why do you not find truth in all my utterances with regard to 'robust rental expectations'. Why pick up the one mention of flip? Why not cease on my talk of rentals as evidence that I intend to 'hold'?

Like those that have religious faith you seem to pick and choose paragraphs to suit (ignore the one where Moses invites his Men to "lay with the women children that hath not known a Man, but kill thier mothers" or where God turns Lots innocent wife into a pillar of salt for momentarily turning to watch a fireworks display, yet thinks nothing bad of Lot for sleeping with his own young daughters, on the basis he had twice had a little to much to drink !!)

Sorry for the tangent there, I merely seek to illuminate the difficulty in debate with someone of a closed fixed mind that ignores much evidence.

For example you imply that because Man has been to the moon I can take from that to pass a fair judgement of what the moon is like, BUT I CANT TO SOME EXTENT USE MY BUSINESS PARTNERS OWN VISIT OF SAIDIA TOGETHER WITH THE DVD HE FILMED! Or the visit another few people have made that I know.

You say only rich people buy sight unseen - total nonsense. I've followed foriegn real estate investing for 5 years and it is common for people to buy unseen. What's to see - as you say it's a building site.

The marina looks pretty much finnished to me. YOU CRY "BUT THERE ARE'NT ANY BOATS". I know this is a difficult one to grasp Biglog, but had you considered that the boats wont come until the restaurants etc are open? Tricky one that.

[dogbox]

Euroscooby

I have a few points to raise with Property Logic such as;

Will a washing line be installed for all those damp salty towels?

Any individual safes?

Will pool lights switch off automatically at say midnight (unless over ridden in which case they remain on for 30 minutes at a time)?

Hibiscus villas - will the roof be well insulated / designed to reflect the Suns heat?

What about sliding mosquito grills to allow open windows in the evening?

Some planting of semi mature large trees / shrubs for shade in each owners garden?

Any option to pay more for a larger pool?

I'm trying to establish whether I should write this merely on my behalf or as a joint effort to benefit us all in which case I would make the correspondance reflect group - think.

[BigLog]

Just returned from 2 weeks in Sardinia which bought the value Saidia represents into sharp focus.

Firstly the villa we stayed in was 2.5x more expensive than Saidia.

Oh, so now Morocco is much cheaper ??

2.5x what exactly ?? You never stopped wailing about how much villas were going per week for in Morocco - wasn't it $22,000 ??

Southern Sardinia is very scruffy, almost third world in apperance apart from parts of the capital.

And Morocco is what ?? Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

So lets consider the limitations of the Sardinian villa:

1) No golf anywhere in the area let alone 3 onsite courses

2) No facilities - just one grubby tiny genral stoe

3) Cramped - packed beaches

4) Gridlocked roads featruing lots of Itlaian road rage. Took 30 minutes to drive 1 mile from the villa to the main road due to the supposed 'up market' area featuring single width dirt tracks

5) No marina, let alone the largest marina in the Med

6) A ghost town outside summer - the total opposite of the Saidia positioning as a year round attraction

7) The guests all said there was too little to do especially for kids

8) No aircon

9) No clubhouse

10) A couple of ok restaurants (Saidia will have at least 20 set around the sparkling marina)

11) No sports facilities - Saidia will have Olympic pools, a small football stadium, many gyms, spas, water parks and swimming lagoons

12) Unattractive in the main. The beaches were quite nice (but packed) yet the touristic property is surrounded by scrub, not the green vistas that Saidia will be swathed in

Honestly I dont mean to come accross as a ranter laugh.gif , but an awful lot of people have seriously miss judged the uniquness and value of Saidia.

I'm confident the rentals will be robust and year round and produce far better yields that most of the 'lock up and leave ghost towns' one sees accross Europe.

1) You can't compare this because the 3 onsite courses haven't been built yet - your friend's DVD won't show this (it'll just show a building site)

2) You can't compare this because the facilities haven't been built yet - your friend's DVD won't show this (it'll just show a building site)

3) Compared to what ?? Did your friend video the entire Saidia beach ?? For the entire year ? Probably not, so you aren't exactly an expert on beaches in Saidia.

4) You haven't been to Morocco so neither you nor your friend would hardly be experts on Moroccan driving/road rage and the width's of their roads. The new road from Casablanca to Marrakesh is already proving not wide enough and that was opened a few months back. I'll give you ONE statistic in Morocco; almost ALL cars have dents in them (that's how good their driving is).

5) Not finished yet though is it Dogbox. Better to say "It will have the largest marina in the med when completed". You must stop confusing present tense with future.

6) Glad you put in the word 'positioning' - almost future tense there. Historically, Saidia is the same, ghost town outside summer. And Summer is NOT 365days a year in Saidia as your friend's dvd visit has you believe.

7) What will (note the word 'will') there be in Saidia when it's finished ?? Is it there now ??

8) This is a quality issue, in Morocco they fit the cheapest they can get away with (probably not picked up in your friend's dvd tour). Ford cars also come with Air-con as standard. Not the same as the air-con in my Merc though.

9) Where is the Clubhouse in Saidia ? On paper.

10) Sounds nice. Can't wait to see it when it's finished. But then by the time they are all finished, will Sardinia still be the same ??

11) Either this will be many many years away, or it'll be done very hurriedly, either way, you'll lose.

[agtisch]

im literally going red with embarassment for you mate.

[The Soup Dragon]

Euroscooby. It wasn’t meant as a debate. I was agreeing with the points you were trying to put across. Your response to my post echos what myself, Dogbox and many others have been saying for over a year. I just highlighted what I see as two contradictions.

[Jonkers]

Euroscooby

I have a few points to raise with Property Logic such as;

Will a washing line be installed for all those damp salty towels?

Any individual safes?

Will pool lights switch off automatically at say midnight (unless over ridden in which case they remain on for 30 minutes at a time)?

Hibiscus villas - will the roof be well insulated / designed to reflect the Suns heat?

What about sliding mosquito grills to allow open windows in the evening?

Some planting of semi mature large trees / shrubs for shade in each owners garden?

Any option to pay more for a larger pool?

I'm trying to establish whether I should write this merely on my behalf or as a joint effort to benefit us all in which case I would make the correspondance reflect group - think.

Some of these are issues that have already been dealt with by Popcorn who runs the Owners Group and regularly puts Qs to PL. Suggest you make contact either by PM here or on the saidia forum. By collectively joining forces we become a much stronger group for negotiation. I've joined and have been amazed at the amount of work being done. and very professionally organised.

[soldintime]

I loved south west Sardinia. The beaches were so quiet, it reminded me a lot of Australia. This was in September last year. I was particularly impressed with a city called Iglesias. A catalan town in Sardinia 10 minutes drive form a fantastic beach. I looked into buying an old apartment on the main square in the historical town centre with 2 balconies overlooking the square with its cofeeshops. The price €45,000 only. This town only 50 minutes drive from the airport and capital Cagliari.

Good things:

* Italian speaking only - I am getting submerged into another culture and way of life.

* Lots of old character, non of the artifically created mod cons.

* No other loud foreigners going on Holiday.

* Good Italian food.

* 2:30 hours flight.

* Not discovered by Holiday porn programs.

This is my type of holiday. Why go to an area that has nothing cultural going?

I love morocco, FEZ, meknes, marakech, the atlas mountains, moroccan food (pigeon pastries with Cinamon). But you will not see me in cultureless resort with Western mod cons. I am not saying it is good or bad investment. However different people want different things.

[dogbox]

I loved south west Sardinia. The beaches were so quiet, it reminded me a lot of Australia. This was in September last year. I was particularly impressed with a city called Iglesias. A catalan town in Sardinia 10 minutes drive form a fantastic beach. I looked into buying an old apartment on the main square in the historical town centre with 2 balconies overlooking the square with its cofeeshops. The price €45,000 only. This town only 50 minutes drive from the airport and capital Cagliari.

Good things:

* Italian speaking only - I am getting submerged into another culture and way of life.

* Lots of old character, non of the artifically created mod cons.

* No other loud foreigners going on Holiday.

* Good Italian food.

* 2:30 hours flight.

* Not discovered by Holiday porn programs.

This is my type of holiday. Why go to an area that has nothing cultural going?

I love morocco, FEZ, meknes, marakech, the atlas mountains, moroccan food (pigeon pastries with Cinamon). But you will not see me in cultureless resort with Western mod cons. I am not saying it is good or bad investment. However different people want different things.

We were in the South East which we found very very scruffy and grim, although the beaches and water were very good but packed.

In the Mail on Sunday property supplement there was a double page spread on Brits buying in Southern Sardinia paying £300,000 (not euros) for a run down property.

I'm all for culture and old world charm but the parts of Sardinia we saw were, well, depressing, not at all magical or atmosperic. Perhaps the South West has more charm?

I here you on the cultureless western style Moroccan resorts, however although not my 'perfect' notion of a holiday it is never the less an attractive proposition for a different sort of holiday - facility laden, green pleasure zone with sparkling marina and lots of activities. The market for such a concept will be significant to say the least.

[dogbox]

7) What will (note the word 'will') there be in Saidia when it's finished ?? Is it there now ??

11) Either this will be many many years away, or it'll be done very hurriedly, either way, you'll lose.

You imply just because it is'nt built yet we should'nt invest.

You keep reminding me nothing is finished.... and...................... and what?

If we follow your argument then no one should invest in anything not built. Why?

Reason dictates your stance is an emotive unmoveable position regardless of the evidence.

[euroscooby]

Who cares what you think ?

You're just as much a VI as Dogbox, I don't see vested interest behaviour in anything Catara or JoN say/have said.

Dogbox compares Sardinia, which he states (thanks to HIS recent experience/visit there) as being like in a 3rd world country, yet; 1) vehemently rejects ANY TRUTHS that anyone else says about the 3rd world country he is ACTUALLY BUYING into (one that he has NEVER been to) and 2) makes a long DUMB comparison list about a place that hasn't even been built yet (and is very far from completion).

I think Euroscooby, you are the Dull one.

Maybe true that no one cares what I think but what a strange attitude to take when we all operate here on a forum. Just because I do not agree with you.

Yes I have a VI, I have never denied it, I just like to see a well balanced debate. Having a VI does not make my view invalid.

Given that you are very anti-Saidia (as anti as dogbox is pro!) and feel that Morocco will be worse off with such a development I have concluded you have a VI.

Let us be clear, in any discussion in life we all have a VI of some sort, however minor it maybe.

As you say the nature of the forum means anyone can say any old rubbish. You have clearly stated why you feel the whole project is doomed, but of course not knowing where you really live or if you really own your own Moroccan company and really treat your staff well we have to take your comments with the same pinch of salt as everyone else's.

FWIW I believe your position and the issues you have raised have been a useful debate. However your ongoing spat with dogbox over who has and who has not been to Saidia etc has been rather dreary and has I am afraid somewhat clouded my judgement of your judgement.

I suspect you to be an honourable man who has worked in Morocco and developed a successful business, I suspect that it has been very hard work. I also suspect that watching 'investors' flocking to your adopted country to make a 'quick buck' through flipping is galling.

That I believe is your VI. It is an understandable VI. It is nonetheless something that will always colour your comments.

As for personal insults; well you have thrown much at Dogbox, now it seems I am beginning to get the benefit.

Edited August 30, 2007 by euroscooby

[Fromage Frais]

Hi folks,

What about now then in Morocco.

Surely the threat of revolution (moroccans have a larger wealth divide than Tunisians for example) will kill the property market.

[righttoleech]

Hi folks,

What about now then in Morocco.

Surely the threat of revolution (moroccans have a larger wealth divide than Tunisians for example) will kill the property market.

Some VIs are ramping Morocco. Meltdown time for savvy investors.

[Fromage Frais]

Surely ramping is impossible.

My wife is strangely quiet after moaning about buying a 250,000£ house in tunis......

I always said to her 25-50k ok 250,000 is just to higher risk.

I expect the homes to get liquidated now as the revolution in Tunisia confirmed what myself and other investors thought...that the VIPs in Tunisia had access to near 0 rate loans and could extend and pretend as long as they liked (well until the people got pissed off with houses 10x-30x wages).

Morocco sounds like the same deal with extra poverty so once libya goes i expect them to be in the next wave with jordan/syria.

[mpprh]

Surely ramping is impossible.

My wife is strangely quiet after moaning about buying a 250,000£ house in tunis......

I always said to her 25-50k ok 250,000 is just to higher risk.

I expect the homes to get liquidated now as the revolution in Tunisia confirmed what myself and other investors thought...that the VIPs in Tunisia had access to near 0 rate loans and could extend and pretend as long as they liked (well until the people got pissed off with houses 10x-30x wages).

Morocco sounds like the same deal with extra poverty so once libya goes i expect them to be in the next wave with jordan/syria.

doesn't help.

Peter

[Midnight rider]

Surely ramping is impossible.

My wife is strangely quiet after moaning about buying a 250,000£ house in tunis......

I always said to her 25-50k ok 250,000 is just to higher risk.

I expect the homes to get liquidated now as the revolution in Tunisia confirmed what myself and other investors thought...that the VIPs in Tunisia had access to near 0 rate loans and could extend and pretend as long as they liked (well until the people got pissed off with houses 10x-30x wages).

Morocco sounds like the same deal with extra poverty so once libya goes i expect them to be in the next wave with jordan/syria.

What a load of old ********!

You obviously have never stepped foot in Morocco yet you feel able to spout such crap.

Morocco is a very different place to Tunisia, with a very progressive and focused economy.

The majority of the population are also very much behind the King and the current policies.

I know where I'd rather live!

[Agentimmo]

What a load of old ********!

You obviously have never stepped foot in Morocco yet you feel able to spout such crap.

Morocco is a very different place to Tunisia, with a very progressive and focused economy.

The majority of the population are also very much behind the King and the current policies.

I know where I'd rather live!

That majority have no access to guns, obviously...............

[picnic]

The majority of the population are also very much behind the King and the current policies.

I suggest you try saying that to the Plolitzario and other disenfranchised citizens and see what reaction you get.

The market there is an accident waiting to happen....the French have lost interest as well.

Take 10pence in the pound while you still can.