Can I Stay One Or Two More Weeks

[nuki]

Hi all,

just got a letter from the firm managing the flat I'm renting from a private landlord. It includes this section 21 notice for June 8 and a renewal agreement at 3% increased rent (and £60 admin renewal fee ). The letter says this is a 'precaution against tenancies rolling onto periodic or tenants leaving without serving notice' and that I should call their office to discuss. They're giving me until May to sign the renewal OR sign the section 21 notice if intending to leave.

Tenancy agreement ends on June 9, my intention is to leave in June but not sure I can do exactly June 9, I might need to stay for 1-2 weeks extra, not more than that.

How should I go about this? Do I have to sign the section 21 notice? Do you believe it's a good idea to call them to explain that I am not renewing the agreement and want to leave, but I can't give them an exact date in June and might need to stay one or two extra weeks. And that I will do my best to tell them early May the exact date of the move.

And how much notice am I required to give them now that they send me this section 21 notice? Do I have to give any notice at all (by law?)

Many thanks!

[Ascii]

If you're leaving in June, don't sign the agreement and issue notice that you intend to leave one month after on 9th July. They haven't got a cat in hell's chance of making you leave before then via the courts as they can't even start proceedings until 10th July and I doubt a court would look kindly on proceedings started when you've notified intent of leaving for 9th July.

It probably makes sense not to do that until you're absolutely sure of your intentions though and leaving the option of a new lease as standing before a beak having said you will do something and not actually doing it won't be good. Quite often the s21 isn't even enforced; it just gives the LL the option of enforcing proceedings at any date after the s21 expiry is dated.

As well as that, s21 are very often issued incorrectly and are unusable in court. Have you checked to see if the deposit is protected? If not that's a flat refusal to enforce at court.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Ascii

[Ascii]

And how much notice am I required to give them now that they send me this section 21 notice? Do I have to give any notice at all (by law?)

Many thanks!

Missed this; normally a month on your part, two on the LL's. You don't have to give any notice if you leave at the end of the fixed term, if it rolls over by one day you're on a rolling contract though and one month's notice ending on a period date is required.

[zebbedee]

Hi all,

just got a letter from the firm managing the flat I'm renting from a private landlord. It includes this section 21 notice for June 8 and a renewal agreement at 3% increased rent (and £60 admin renewal fee ). The letter says this is a 'precaution against tenancies rolling onto periodic or tenants leaving without serving notice' and that I should call their office to discuss. They're giving me until May to sign the renewal OR sign the section 21 notice if intending to leave.

Tenancy agreement ends on June 9, my intention is to leave in June but not sure I can do exactly June 9, I might need to stay for 1-2 weeks extra, not more than that.

How should I go about this? Do I have to sign the section 21 notice? Do you believe it's a good idea to call them to explain that I am not renewing the agreement and want to leave, but I can't give them an exact date in June and might need to stay one or two extra weeks. And that I will do my best to tell them early May the exact date of the move.

And how much notice am I required to give them now that they send me this section 21 notice? Do I have to give any notice at all (by law?)

Many thanks!

There is nothing to sign with the s21 (they may ask for you to acknowledhe it but there is no need) a served notice is a served notice. I wouldn't bother telling them anything, if you are going to be leaving anywayt and not relying on them for anything then just go when you are ready but rent will need to be paid for a full month, they'll take it out of the deposit though and may try and screw more from the deposit so maybe leave them to do just that. They sound like right cocks of agents to send the s21 to try and force you to renew when you have a right to allow it to pass to statutory periodic and they would then have a tenant who they know rather than a void. Of course if you call they may be willing to negotiate you staying a week or two but I'd doubt it as they sound like cocks. When you say the agreement ends june 9th is that the last day or was that the first day as if it was the first day the agreement ends june 8th and it is a valid s21, if it actually ends on the 9th then the s21 is not a valid notice-IMHO-2 months notice goven but an incorrect date invalidates it??? (others will know for sure)

[nuki]

Thanks all.

The deposit is protected and the date the tenancy ends is June 8 actually, just checked the AST contract. My problem is that I intend to make an offer on a flat tomorrow (trying to buy). If it gets accepted, I believe there is sufficient time til June 9 to complete and move in. Owner of the flat I want to buy is willing to move out asap, he said 'as soon as you're ready to move in, and I mentioned June 1 already, and he said fine.

However, if for whatever reason I can't get the keys on time, obviously I want to have the option of extending by a couple of weeks. I am willing to give them as much notice as I can with the exact date, but I don't know if I can give them two months notice (I will aim for 1 full month notice). I'm a single mom with a child, it would be extremely difficult for me to rent short term, put furniture in storage, etc.

(If this offer doesn't get accepted, then I will move in a rental in a different area anyway, I don't want to remain here where I am, rent is too high and schools are of bad quality. Already started looking for rentals as well, so June 9 is completely doable in this scenario, no worries there).

They gave me until May 8 to return the signed renewal (it says section 21 notice will be revoked if I return the signed renewal). After this date, if I don't renew they will commence viewings.

ps. We are exemplary tenants, property is spotless clean (I'm a clean freak), nothing broken, walls and carpets are spotless, I intend to leave it all clean. Paid on time every single month. Is it THAT difficult to get them agree for two extra weeks with a 1-month notice?

Edited April 1, 2012 by anukis

[tim123]

Hi all,

just got a letter from the firm managing the flat I'm renting from a private landlord. It includes this section 21 notice for June 8 and a renewal agreement at 3% increased rent (and £60 admin renewal fee ). The letter says this is a 'precaution against tenancies rolling onto periodic or tenants leaving without serving notice' and that I should call their office to discuss. They're giving me until May to sign the renewal OR sign the section 21 notice if intending to leave.

Tenancy agreement ends on June 9, my intention is to leave in June but not sure I can do exactly June 9, I might need to stay for 1-2 weeks extra, not more than that.

How should I go about this? Do I have to sign the section 21 notice? Do you believe it's a good idea to call them to explain that I am not renewing the agreement and want to leave, but I can't give them an exact date in June and might need to stay one or two extra weeks. And that I will do my best to tell them early May the exact date of the move.

And how much notice am I required to give them now that they send me this section 21 notice? Do I have to give any notice at all (by law?)

Many thanks!

There are no circumstances under which you need to sign this form.

The only reason why you might phone them to discuss is politeness. You can decide for yourself if they deserve this.

If you want to move out on the termination date then you need to do nothing (except move out!)

If you want to move out after that date, the act of staying (in absence of you signing the new contract) is for a periodic tenancy to have been automatically created and you will now have to give the statutory periodic notice of one month, to end on a rental date.

So no, you can't chose some random day of the month to move out [1], it has to be the end of a rental period, and if it isn't the expiry date of a fixed term you DO have to give notice.

You can, of course, negotiate a new, very short, fixed term before the firts finishes. There is no legal impediement to this (only the agent's lack of understanding of the law)

tim

[1] obviously you can physically move out, what I mean by move out date is the day that you cease to be liable for the rent.

[nuki]

Thanks so if understand correctly it can't be two weeks, it has to be a full month extra, and I can give them 1-month notice? Am I correct here?

[Damocles]

If you leave before the fixed term ends there is no need to give any notice.

However, if you stay over, even by one day, a statutory periodic tenancy starts and you can only end that by giving notice to quit. That means, if you pay rent monthly, that you will be committed to at least another month; if you pay weekly then it will be four weeks. The really big snag is that you cannot give notice before the tenancy starts as section 5(5) of the Housing Act 1988 provides that a notice to quit given by a tenant before such a tenancy starts is of no effect. Giving notice on the first day of the periodic tenancy is (probably*) too late and so in effect you are committed to at least two months. If you want to stay for a short period, try and agree a further fixed term up to the date you want to leave, though note that the landlord does not have to agree to grant it. Until you have a clearer idea of when you will be leaving there is not a lot you can do.

*This depends on whether the day of service is included in the notice period and whether you you give notice ending the tenancy on the first or last day of a tenancy period.

[tim123]

They gave me until May 8 to return the signed renewal (it says section 21 notice will be revoked if I return the signed renewal). After this date, if I don't renew they will commence viewings.

No they won't because you will tell them that they can't.

Just to clarify the rules here. There is nothing that the agency can (legally) do to make you vacate the flat on the termination date, so even if you were to allow it, they would be foolish to try to sign a new tenant for the next day.

In order to remove you, they need to get a court order to enforce the S21 that they have issued. This will take around 4 weeks and (assuming everything is in order) the court will order a leaving date a couple of weeks later. So the earliest that they can legally force the property to be empty is 6 weeks after the termination date.

So you can play this system to your advantage. If you tell them (nearer the date) that you will not be leaving on the termination date, require them to seek the court order that the law demands, but that you will co-operate with them during this process, then you can stay a bit longer and not leave yourself open to stupid costs for the action. This is a perfectly normal action for e.g. someone seeking help from the council as they are not deemed homeless until the court has issued an order for eviction.

Of course they can always give you the 3/4 week AST that you seek and you will leave on the termination date of that!

tim

[nuki]

No they won't because you will tell them that they can't.

Just to clarify the rules here. There is nothing that the agency can (legally) do to make you vacate the flat on the termination date, so even if you were to allow it, they would be foolish to try to sign a new tenant for the next day.

In order to remove you, they need to get a court order to enforce the S21 that they have issued. This will take around 4 weeks and (assuming everything is in order) the court will order a leaving date a couple of weeks later. So the earliest that they can legally force the property to be empty is 6 weeks after the termination date.

So you can play this system to your advantage. If you tell them (nearer the date) that you will not be leaving on the termination date, require them to seek the court order that the law demands, but that you will co-operate with them during this process, then you can stay a bit longer and not leave yourself open to stupid costs for the action. This is a perfectly normal action for e.g. someone seeking help from the council as they are not deemed homeless until the court has issued an order for eviction.

Of course they can always give you the 3/4 week AST that you seek and you will leave on the termination date of that!

tim

Thanks, but - if they don't agree to the 3 weeks AST - from what a poster says above I understand that, if I stay for only one week after June 8, I'm in fact liable to pay two extra months rent because I can't give them 1-month notice until June 9 and that is already too late?

So it looks like the best course of action is to try hard to convince them to sign a very short AST and if they don't, try to get the solicitors and the lender to complete on time (well, IF my offer gets accepted).

[zebbedee]

Thanks, but - if they don't agree to the 3 weeks AST - from what a poster says above I understand that, if I stay for only one week after June 8, I'm in fact liable to pay two extra months rent because I can't give them 1-month notice until June 9 and that is already too late?

So it looks like the best course of action is to try hard to convince them to sign a very short AST and if they don't, try to get the solicitors and the lender to complete on time (well, IF my offer gets accepted).

You could call them and tell them that you will not be renewing the tenancy but that you would be willing to allow viewings for a short extension of the couple of weeks that you require. Make it clear that if they are unwilling to agree then viewings will not be permitted and the LL will then be exposed to a void period which is far more costly than simply being curtious on thier behalf. CC to the LL so that he is in the loop, a reasonable LL and a good tenant should be able to come to a mutually agreeable resolution.

Edit. If I'm not mistaken, (Tim, Damocles?), as the s21 notice has been issued if you were to stay there is nowt they can do, if you stay only 2 weeks and then leave you are merely complying with the LL wishes albeit a bit late. Or is this the arguement that has taken place before?

Edited April 1, 2012 by zebbedee

[Damocles]

Edit. If I'm not mistaken, (Tim, Damocles?), as the s21 notice has been issued if you were to stay there is nowt they can do, if you stay only 2 weeks and then leave you are merely complying with the LL wishes albeit a bit late. Or is this the arguement that has taken place before?

It has indeed been gone through. See this thread My position on the matter is summed up in the last two paragraphs of post number 228.

[xela57]

As you are buying a place you will need a solicitor, I assume you have chosen one yourself and not taken the one the estate agent pushes. The Solicitor is about the ONLY person who is on your side in the whole property buying thing and so, in my opinion, you defo want to choose your solicitor yourself and not take the estate agent's "pet" solicitor. The law society web site is a good place to start or a personal recommendation from a friend.

Your Solicitor will then be able to advise you on timescales and give you professional advice on your current rental contract. Purchasing always seems to take longer than everyone wants but it seems that that is just part of life.

The rest of this is waffle... the main point is that you will have a solicitor anyway so ask them and they can give the best advice on the rental stuff!

On a people note rather than a strictly law note the landlord and agents will probably be more reasonable if they think you are keeping them informed.

So when you have started the purchase proper then send them a letter acknowledging the AST end date and explaining that you will be moving to a property that you are purchasing but as yet you have no firm completion date but are aiming to complete by whenever you are aiming for. You could also (if your solicitor confirms this) tell them that you understand that if you are unable to move out on the AST end date that periodic tenancy will automatically exist. If you feel you could also afford the 3% rent increase you could acknowledge that you will pay rent at that higher rate from that day. That offer could be made along the lines of "Although lapsing onto a periodic tenancy would be unfortunate for all concerned should that have to happen I am willing to pay a monthly rent of ???pounds, that being a 3% increase on my current rent from the AST end date."

Also commit to keeping them informed.

If you have the landlord's address consider sending it to both the landlord and agent so the agent can't then bend the truth when they speak to the landlord.

Oh and keep a copy of all correspondence.

If I were you I would not allude to the letter you have received from them of acknowledge the S21 notice at all, but instead just tell them factually what you are trying to do.

Anyway good luck with the purchase!

[nuki]

Thank you very much all! I'll speak with the solicitor as well.

Now hopefully my offer gets accepted, that's a whole other story :-)

[RichB]

You can, of course, negotiate a new, very short, fixed term before the firts finishes. There is no legal impediement to this (only the agent's lack of understanding of the law desire to screw 2 days minimum wage earnings out of you.)

[Bloo Loo]

If you leave before the fixed term ends there is no need to give any notice.

However, if you stay over, even by one day, a statutory periodic tenancy starts and you can only end that by giving notice to quit. That means, if you pay rent monthly, that you will be committed to at least another month; if you pay weekly then it will be four weeks. The really big snag is that you cannot give notice before the tenancy starts as section 5(5) of the Housing Act 1988 provides that a notice to quit given by a tenant before such a tenancy starts is of no effect. Giving notice on the first day of the periodic tenancy is (probably*) too late and so in effect you are committed to at least two months. If you want to stay for a short period, try and agree a further fixed term up to the date you want to leave, though note that the landlord does not have to agree to grant it. Until you have a clearer idea of when you will be leaving there is not a lot you can do.

*This depends on whether the day of service is included in the notice period and whether you you give notice ending the tenancy on the first or last day of a tenancy period.

so, they issue a S21, properly, but if you overstay you are now on a periodic and have to give effectively 2 months notice.

Surely the S21 makes the new periodic void?...how else could they apply to a court for eviction?

The law is an ass

Either they REALLY want the property back on the date the S21 calls, or they dont.

[Damocles]

Surely the S21 makes the new periodic void?

Absolutely not! That would prejudice tenants. There is much in the HA 1988 that is obscure, but section 5 is crystal clear. When an assured tenancy comes to an end, if the tenant remains in possession a periodic tenancy arises.

...how else could they apply to a court for eviction?

Because of what is provided in section 21 HA 1988.

[Bloo Loo]

Absolutely not! That would prejudice tenants. There is much in the HA 1988 that is obscure, but section 5 is crystal clear. When an assured tenancy comes to an end, if the tenant remains in possession a periodic tenancy arises.

Because of what is provided in section 21 HA 1988.

stupid law...correct notice before end of tenancy...tenant stays and is on periodic tenancy, yet will still be evicted...so not really a periodic tenancy unless the eviction is 2 months from the start of the periodic.

stupid to call it a periodic when its an uncontracted tenancy, as the periodic notice procedure is different.

[Damocles]

stupid law...correct notice before end of tenancy...tenant stays and is on periodic tenancy, yet will still be evicted...so not really a periodic tenancy unless the eviction is 2 months from the start of the periodic.

stupid to call it a periodic when its an uncontracted tenancy, as the periodic notice procedure is different.

I am not sure I follow you here.

Section 5 benefits tenants.

I think part of the problem is that the HA was drafted on the basis that an assured tenancy (i.e. non-shorthold) would be the default with a special procedure needing to be followed to ensure that a tenancy was an assured shorthold tenancy. The position has since been reversed. Even so it has always been the case that an AST is a species of assured tenancy with all the rights that go with that type of tenancy subject to the landlord being able to obtain possession after giving notice. Do you think the position should be that when a fixed term assured tenancy comes to an end the tenant should have no right to continue in occupation?