Altrincham/hale/halebarns

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

If it's the one I think you're referring to, price has just been cut again.

The market is so brittle imo. We'd really start to see things with more supply onto the market, from sellers who have real motivation to sell.

Wow, not seen that with the right move app but yes, down to £230k, thanks.

As I think I said before, viewed in in Jan/Feb '11 to rent. "Accidental" landlords, moved south for work. Was originally for sale for £300K back then, can't even get £250k.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-37946693.html

Is £175k a cheeky enough offer or too much?

[manchester50]

They've changed from 270 >250 > offers in excess of 230.

I've seen this a lot recently. This is how I interpret it:

"Haven't sold so drop from 270 to 250 but don't really want to take less than that. I'm getting offers of 15%+ below that! i.e. <225. Mr Agent, there is no way I am selling it for nothing, make these nasty low offers go away. Ok, well you haven't had offers at 250 so you may need to be a little bit flexible, but we can say offers over 230 to avoid the 200s,210s etc. Ok."

I might be wrong but have seen this pattern a lot recently, with the "offers in excess of" words creeping in after the vendor feels they've cut enough.

No harm in a punt though.

[Nomadd]

They've changed from 270 >250 > offers in excess of 230.

I've seen this a lot recently. This is how I interpret it:

"Haven't sold so drop from 270 to 250 but don't really want to take less than that. I'm getting offers of 15%+ below that! i.e. <225. Mr Agent, there is no way I am selling it for nothing, make these nasty low offers go away. Ok, well you haven't had offers at 250 so you may need to be a little bit flexible, but we can say offers over 230 to avoid the 200s,210s etc. Ok."

I might be wrong but have seen this pattern a lot recently, with the "offers in excess of" words creeping in after the vendor feels they've cut enough.

No harm in a punt though.

Yeah, seen this a lot lately. Also stuff with "bracketed" prices - i.e. "Offers of £xxx to £yyy", where even the lower "£xxx" figure is still way too high; it's a kind of "well here are my expectations", let's hope you can match up with them. All a bit mad and pathetic, especially as you see the property stuck on the market months later, and then the price chopped once again.

I'll go with my earlier comments here - which Venger hinted at above - that we are really into a "fear" phase now; Olympics "good news" is over, and it's back to the real - messy - world we find ourselves in. I think buying a house now - unless you have a very, very cheeky offer accepted - would be a big mistake. All the pressure seems to be negative now, and I think the next year or two will be harsh. But, for those looking to buy, I still think vendors are living in "everything is OK(ish) land", and those cheeky offers are likely to be futile. I'm sitting on the sidelines until reality is clearly staring them in the face, and that'll take another year at least IMHO. EDIT: For example, just read HP is chopping an extra 2,000 people, making the total cut 29,000 by 2014; so far, only 3,800 have been let go, so a hell of lot of people yet to find the unemployment queue over the next year or two. Just once example of many.

As ever, YMMV.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Nomadd

[R K]

http://www.rightmove...y-37946693.html

Is £175k a cheeky enough offer or too much?

Depends on how much you like/want it.

If you're seriously interested then you'd probably want to try and build a rappor with vendor and get him on the hook. Once he's on the hook you can try and squeeze him, feed him hard luck story, knock him down on survey etc etc.

If you don't give a sh1t and are perfectly prepared to move onto the next house then it doesn't make any difference and the agent will know you have steel ******.

Depends also what you can afford, how long you want/expect to stay there and what price you want at the Land Registry when you come to sell it on. Bearing in mind that you'll have someone like you coming along at that time squeezing your nuts down from 270 to 250 to 230 to 175 too in all probability.

Plus, it's far far easier and more relaxing buying a house when prices are falling than when they're rising. You really really really do not want to be buying when prices are rising. If you think this is stressful.............

Edited September 11, 2012 by Red Knight

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Depends on how much you like/want it.

Not that much.

Its been rented out for at least a year which is not a good sign.

It is in all but name a 2 bed house (3rd bed would be best used by extending the bathroom

The garden is split by the usual terraced right of way. Except its not just a path for the neighbours, its a driveway. 2 Small kids?

I'm throwing prices round to get some feedback

If you're seriously interested then you'd probably want to try and build a rappor with vendor and get him on the hook. Once he's on the hook you can try and squeeze him, feed him hard luck story, knock him down on survey etc etc.

If you don't give a sh1t and are perfectly prepared to move onto the next house then it doesn't make any difference and the agent will know you have steel ******.

Don't give a shit - every £10k paid is a year of my working life. I'd rather that were shorter than "Darling, they've got an Aga! We must have this house!"

Depends also what you can afford, how long you want/expect to stay there and what price you want at the Land Registry when you come to sell it on. Bearing in mind that you'll have someone like you coming along at that time squeezing your nuts down from 270 to 250 to 230 to 175 too in all probability.

I'll stay there 2 or 3 years while prices rise again and use my equity to move to somewhere bigger and dearer. By the time I'm 40, I'll have climbed the ladder and own somewhere nice on South Downs Road.

No ladder fallacy here. One house, one transaction. end of. After that who knows what the future brings.

Can you clarify what you mean by "what price you want at the Land Registry when you come to sell it on"?

Plus, it's far far easier and more relaxing buying a house when prices are falling than when they're rising. You really really really do not want to be buying when prices are rising. If you think this is stressful.............

I expect it to be stressful when I remember that I'm in chronic negative equity with a 120% Together mortgage on a shared ownership flat in Ardwick...

Edited September 11, 2012 by SeeYouNextTuesday

[manchester50]

I'm not sure why I'm adding to this thread as I'm digressing....but I have seen a few more repos recently. Not a flood of course, but we have looked at two that were of interest.

One of them is this one. Look at the price history and the text update two days ago. The 490k offer has fallen through. Regardless of the pros and cons of that particular house, this example hugely demonstrates the width of gap between EA/vendor valuations (initially 750) and what the lender feels is an acceptable sale price (490)

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-32729291.html?premiumA=true

[Venger]

I'll go with my earlier comments here - which Venger hinted at above - that we are really into a "fear" phase now; Olympics "good news" is over, and it's back to the real - messy - world we find ourselves in. I think buying a house now - unless you have a very, very cheeky offer accepted - would be a big mistake. All the pressure seems to be negative now, and I think the next year or two will be harsh. But, for those looking to buy, I still think vendors are living in "everything is OK(ish) land", and those cheeky offers are likely to be futile.

I'm not sure we're in any fear phase when, as you admit, most owners, perhaps a bit less so for vendors, are living in everything is OK land.

Still some way to go for any fear phase, but I hope it's not a slow 10 year playout for house prices as some on the main forum, (and M50) have suggested it could be. It's looking that way, unless market forces VI policymakers can't control emerge.

I'm slightly surprised SYNT contemplates such a lower than asking offer, but don't disagree with £175,000 being a fair offer for that house. I just didn't think you would be so..realistic to consider such an offer.

As I remember it the top end if your budget is quite a lot higher, but obviously you're not willing to pay that for just any house which meets some of your requirements (no driveway). Perhaps falling asking prices make you hungrier to get even better value.

And the new asking is offers over, which to me suggests the EA have encouraged them thinking they might get more viewings and perhaps an offer above that.

Sadly I think there will be others offers on the table before the owner ever accepts £175,000 but could be wrong. If we had more supply from others sellers in a bind and needing to sell, it might be different. Yet their number seem limited for the moment. Could be worth making an offer provided it's a house you'd be satisfied living in.

As Nomadd knows I made my first (ever) offer earlier this year offering rapid completion, but it was declined. In fairness their EA was totally professional and very pleasant and understanding with me, despite my very offer well below the asking price. She accepted my reasons (place needed totally gutting and reworking) and forwarded the offer. I sensed understanding and sympathy from the EA to the challenges for buyers are up against. Also I did offer to pay the sellers EA fees at the rate applicable on the original asking price. I thought that might motivate the EA towards getting vendor to accept.

I don't know the full circumstances but there was a hint that the seller was either not living in the property, in hands of executors, or even the bank. Also I thought they needed a quick sale but that's proven not to be the case. So I went for it with a low offer on the change circumstances may all come together, but didn't that occasion. It's still for sale (and empty I think) but I did felt very good for making my first offer at what I considered its value to me. I'd do the same again if I see signs of distress, although ideally don't want to seek opportunities for value but wait until the deals start coming to me.

[R K]

Not that much.

Its been rented out for at least a year which is not a good sign.

It is in all but name a 2 bed house (3rd bed would be best used by extending the bathroom

The garden is split by the usual terraced right of way. Except its not just a path for the neighbours, its a driveway. 2 Small kids?

I'm throwing prices round to get some feedback

Don't give a shit - every £10k paid is a year of my working life. I'd rather that were shorter than "Darling, they've got an Aga! We must have this house!"

I'll stay there 2 or 3 years while prices rise again and use my equity to move to somewhere bigger and dearer. By the time I'm 40, I'll have climbed the ladder and own somewhere nice on South Downs Road.

No ladder fallacy here. One house, one transaction. end of. After that who knows what the future brings.

Can you clarify what you mean by "what price you want at the Land Registry when you come to sell it on"?

I expect it to be stressful when I remember that I'm in chronic negative equity with a 120% Together mortgage on a shared ownership flat in Ardwick...

In which case you have nothing to lose.

Land Registry - Well, your next buyer (assuming there is one) will do exactly what you're doing now. He/she will go to the land registry, check how much you paid in 2012/3/4 etc etc.

This isn't the top of the market, that's patently obvious. We're in a similar place to 82/3, 93/4 and so on, where there's plenty of supply, fewer buyers, little competition, tight credit, pessimistic surveyors etc etc. When that changes it makes it far more tricky negotiating prices down, and it becomes a far less relaxed experience. Try putting in offers £50k below in a rising market.........

[Nomadd]

As I remember it the top end if your budget is quite a lot higher, but obviously you're not willing to pay that for just any house which meets some of your requirements (no driveway). Perhaps falling asking prices make you hungrier to get even better value.

Correct. I see pretty graphs like this one: http://www.home.co.uk/search/price_info.htm?property=2976735690

And I can see pretty graphs like that one continuing over the next few years. I'm not prepared to catch a falling knife. And I think any talk of "rising prices" over the next few years is pure la-la land. Hence, with my cheap rental, I will calmly wait and watch.

[R K]

I'm not sure why I'm adding to this thread as I'm digressing....but I have seen a few more repos recently. Not a flood of course, but we have looked at two that were of interest.

One of them is this one. Look at the price history and the text update two days ago. The 490k offer has fallen through. Regardless of the pros and cons of that particular house, this example hugely demonstrates the width of gap between EA/vendor valuations (initially 750) and what the lender feels is an acceptable sale price (490)

http://www.rightmove...l?premiumA=true

Tarp is an unusual place. Drive to the nearest train station. 20 mins to nearest supermarket (Winsford or Chester), ditto cinemas, fair old drag to the M56 and scouse airport. Oulton Park traffic, etc etc.

Have friends in the centre and surrounding areas and the attraction baffles me personally. Prices even more so! Clearly some people do love all that Hunt and Hunters stuff. Each to their own.

1 development just completed and 2 quite large developments on the books (1 of which being disputed) very active nimby group developing a locally agreed development plan and so on.......

That said, some appealing countryside and Chester reasonably accessible if that appeals.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Land Registry - Well, your next buyer (assuming there is one) will do exactly what you're doing now. He/she will go to the land registry, check how much you paid in 2012/3/4 etc etc.

What's your slant? What are you getting at?

[R K]

What's your slant? What are you getting at?

? swings today become roundabouts tomorrow

One time you're a buyer another time you're a seller. Nothing more profound than that I'm afraid.

[R K]

Off the market? For rent? Waiting for the Autumn bounce?

Good spot. I noticed it was listed for rental as well as sale a couple of weeks back but now it's disappeared from both listings.

As it happens I also noticed there were two very shiney BMWs on the front drive this morning, so it's occupied. Whether that's a sale, rental or developer I'm afraid I can't say.

[manchester50]

Tarp is an unusual place. Drive to the nearest train station. 20 mins to nearest supermarket (Winsford or Chester), ditto cinemas, fair old drag to the M56 and scouse airport. Oulton Park traffic, etc etc.

Have friends in the centre and surrounding areas and the attraction baffles me personally. Prices even more so! Clearly some people do love all that Hunt and Hunters stuff. Each to their own.

1 development just completed and 2 quite large developments on the books (1 of which being disputed) very active nimby group developing a locally agreed development plan and so on.......

That said, some appealing countryside and Chester reasonably accessible if that appeals.

Tarp's unusual for the North West. We've looked at places in about a dozen villages in west Cheshire and the area does appeal due to it being so much less built up than South Manc down to Wilmslow. It's further to drive to many faclities than the block south of Manc down to Macc, the non-electrified Manc to Chester trainline moves at a snail's pace, and the traffic can clog up (into Chester and towards the M56). However, if you want an attractive village of that sort of size with that level of facilities (inc decent primary & secondary) then there aren't many alternatives - at least in the NW ; when I lived in the South there were loads across Hamp/Surrey/Berkshire/Oxfordshire. The NW is better at good cities, tiny Cheshire villages and decent suburbs.

The main downer of the area for me is that I'd always be driving down to Crewe to pick the train up to London.

Out of interest, where do you live now?

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

? swings today become roundabouts tomorrow

One time you're a buyer another time you're a seller. Nothing more profound than that I'm afraid.

What would you suggest then? I consider any position other than "I will be screwed by my buyer on selling" to be illogical, therefore I should screw my vendor. For a second (and why I asked) you almost sounded like you were trying to say don't go too low, you'll upset the stats which will make it harder to re-sell. And it's corollary, paying more now would get you more back in the future. Not what I would have expected you to say

Personal question, you have sprogs, did you rent when they were very small, did you live in a nice area at that time?

Not that I think for one second that this vendor would countenance 25% off their 2006 purchase price.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

I'm slightly surprised SYNT contemplates such a lower than asking offer, but don't disagree with £175,000 being a fair offer for that house. I just didn't think you would be so..realistic to consider such an offer.

As I remember it the top end if your budget is quite a lot higher, but obviously you're not willing to pay that for just any house which meets some of your requirements (no driveway). Perhaps falling asking prices make you hungrier to get even better value.

why surprised? In an uncertain world I'm looking for utility not investment leverage.

When (my wife and) I bought first time round, 2005, we borrowed under £100k on basic earnings of £45k, OTE was 10-15% more, even put down a 10% deposit (could have put down more). In that market, that's the least risky/stretched purchase I've ever heard of. Could easily have borrowed £150k + at 95-100% LTV but didn't.

[Venger]

why surprised? In an uncertain world I'm looking for utility not investment leverage.

When (my wife and) I bought first time round, 2005, we borrowed under £100k on basic earnings of £45k, OTE was 10-15% more, even put down a 10% deposit (could have put down more). In that market, that's the least risky/stretched purchase I've ever heard of. Could easily have borrowed £150k + at 95-100% LTV but didn't.

Well I admit to not having looked at the floorplan for that house which has been reduced, which you say is not a proper 3-bed house.

Utility, I understand and agree with that principle in buying, for it's my view too. Except we're both looking to buy in better areas, so it's not purely utility, but competing against others, and what they are prepared and able to pay for houses.

My surprise stemmed from believing you were wiling to pay a certain amount for a house which meets your requirements, even if you suspect it has further to fall in the future. I just thought you had a level in which you were prepared to go in at, so you and your wife have housing stability (an end to many different rentals, and moves forced on you by landlords selling up) and to get your children into the preferred schools you have in mind. It's a reasonable position. It's not like your aspirations are for a 4 bed detached requiring lots of mortgage debt, but just up from an entry level home that you can be settled in and be a family base for years. So I didn't think you'd be too concerned with seeking maximum value if a house comes up which meets your requirements and finally falls into the zone of what you're prepared to pay.

Building a rapport with an owners I suggest is more appropriate for higher value homes. More so in a rising market where buyers charm it up, believing there really is lots of competition, and the seller laps it all up in their position of power. Also perhaps working with a stubborn older seller to get them to see reality in this market.

Yet that tactic is just not applicable to the lower end of the Hale market where the current owners are likely to be younger, having less leeway on what they can reduce it to, and where a more competitive market exists for basic homes in the better areas. Similarly no rapport tactics are going to work with a reluctant landlord who is renting elsewhere.

I'm not sure I understand RK entirely but the roundabouts are easier to get off when you're carrying less mortgage debt, and having bought a modest sized entry house in a good area.

Land Registry - Well, your next buyer (assuming there is one) will do exactly what you're doing now. He/she will go to the land registry, check how much you paid in 2012/3/4 etc etc.

This isn't the top of the market, that's patently obvious. We're in a similar place to 82/3, 93/4 and so on, where there's plenty of supply, fewer buyers, little competition, tight credit, pessimistic surveyors etc etc. When that changes it makes it far more tricky negotiating prices down, and it becomes a far less relaxed experience. Try putting in offers £50k below in a rising market.........

Supply is very low imo, suppressed with stimulus policy, but hopefully set to increase. I don't think we're in any danger of a sudden switch to a sustainable rising market for ages. We've already seen an artificial boost in prices from QE and other emergency stimulus, and I await to see what happens when that if forced to stop or tapers off, or sellers still need to sell, and stimulus losing traction. I didn't put offers in of £50K below in a rising market, but suffered that rising market whilst continuing to save, so as to take advantage of falling prices, and lower offers. It's my time now, and now getting ever trickier for sellers. Sellers should be doing their best to seek rapport with buyers and upsizers, not buyers in need of doing the charming.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Venger

[R K]

Similarly no rapport tactics are going to work with a reluctant landlord who is renting elsewhere.

Supply is very low imo

Friends who were very 'reluctant landlords' waited 12 months for their 1 and only buyer to sort out his personal life. He built a good rapport with them, they took him at his word, waited and exchanged last month. They're now buying in the area they want. So disagree with you completely I'm afraid.

Supply isn't low now. You want to compare it with, say, 1989. Complete nonsense I'm afraid, sorry.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Friends who were very 'reluctant landlords' waited 12 months for their 1 and only buyer to sort out his personal life. He built a good rapport with them, they took him at his word, waited and exchanged last month. They're now buying in the area they want. So disagree with you completely I'm afraid.

Supply isn't low now. You want to compare it with, say, 1989. Complete nonsense I'm afraid, sorry.

I don't disagree on "rapport"

Was tempted to try such an angle on a probate sale but again I was thinking >25% off the eventual market price so no point and...

I was recently offered (informally) a decent tree road house not wildly dissimilar to the one on the main road you're discussing at £250k. Modernised properties are being marketed for £350k but the guy wasn't likable, 250k is a bit rich for me for a house needing a lot of work...

Edited September 12, 2012 by SeeYouNextTuesday

[manchester50]

Supply isn't low now. You want to compare it with, say, 1989. Complete nonsense I'm afraid, sorry.

It may not be low compared with 1989 (I don't have the numbers so won't comment), but in my RM 'drawn' search area the numbers are well down on last year and 2010. My search area is far wider than most of you will cover, and the avg number of properties listed in 2010 was ~120 daily. This has dropped gradually since, with the last month being the lowest I've seen with ~70 going on per day.

The last few days have seen a few more so I am hoping to see more listings during September and into early October.

[Venger]

Friends who were very 'reluctant landlords' waited 12 months for their 1 and only buyer to sort out his personal life. He built a good rapport with them, they took him at his word, waited and exchanged last month. They're now buying in the area they want. So disagree with you completely I'm afraid.

Supply isn't low now. You want to compare it with, say, 1989. Complete nonsense I'm afraid, sorry.

I think you're looking at an exception there.

Their 1 and only buyer? The 1 buyer willing to meet them on the price they wanted. I suggest they'd have snapped the hand off any other buyer offering them quicker completion than a year, but it sounds like there weren't any prepared to meet them on the price they wanted.

Sounds like it was that buyer doing the sellers a favour to allow them to escape with the price they were seeking. Rather than the sellers having been charmed and having done the the buyer a favour by waiting.

Buyers have the power.

Obviously probate sales are different, but buyers there still have the power. They're just likely to find it easier to deal with executors who have less emotional attachment, don't want to hold onto a house for months/years, become landlords, and where a lower offer is more palatable when the proceeds of sale are sometimes being split 2 or 3 ways anyway. (I'll stick to my views on supply being lower than historic norms, but hopefully set to rise in coming months.)

[Venger]

I'm not sure why I'm adding to this thread as I'm digressing....but I have seen a few more repos recently. Not a flood of course, but we have looked at two that were of interest.

One of them is this one. Look at the price history and the text update two days ago. The 490k offer has fallen through. Regardless of the pros and cons of that particular house, this example hugely demonstrates the width of gap between EA/vendor valuations (initially 750) and what the lender feels is an acceptable sale price (490)

http://www.rightmove...l?premiumA=true

Thanks for that info. Repos towards the higher end, although in the sticks.

If there's any rapport tactics it's more likely to work with sellers of higher end homes, but relying less on their generosity and more on the fact the market is in a vulnerable position. I suspect it won't be long till we see more repos at the mid to higher end in Hale and Bowdon.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Venger

[Nomadd]

Supply isn't low now. [snip]

I agree.

In the last week or two, my search of the wider Altrincham area (inc. Hale, Bowdon, Hale Barns, etc.) has shown a high number of properties hitting the market, many which were prior SSTC. Also a hell of a lot of price chops and re-listings. Admittedly this is in the £500k+ territory, but even so, I think supply to getting pretty high now. I also think that trend will continue. The Sold prices are now testing new lows, so it will be interesting to see how much further that is pushed by this extra flood of properties.

[Democorruptcy]

Tarp's unusual for the North West. We've looked at places in about a dozen villages in west Cheshire and the area does appeal due to it being so much less built up than South Manc down to Wilmslow. It's further to drive to many faclities than the block south of Manc down to Macc, the non-electrified Manc to Chester trainline moves at a snail's pace, and the traffic can clog up (into Chester and towards the M56). However, if you want an attractive village of that sort of size with that level of facilities (inc decent primary & secondary) then there aren't many alternatives - at least in the NW ; when I lived in the South there were loads across Hamp/Surrey/Berkshire/Oxfordshire. The NW is better at good cities, tiny Cheshire villages and decent suburbs.

The main downer of the area for me is that I'd always be driving down to Crewe to pick the train up to London.

Out of interest, where do you live now?

As we are talking about Cheshire villages outside the normal area, what do you think about this one?

It's academic because it went under offer like a hotcake immediately it came on in August for £550k

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-38848523.html

Looks like it might have had a new roof:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=the+sandstone,+Nantwich+Road,+Chester+CH3+9JH&hl=en&ll=53.076922,-2.749178&spn=0.000026,0.032938&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=13.283564,39.331055&hq=the+sandstone,+Nantwich+Road,&hnear=Chester+CH3+9JH,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.076694,-2.753638&panoid=87jOWR1020VfHg0FXRytag&cbp=12,300.17,,0,0

I stumbled across the for sale sign after getting lost up Bickerton Hill again and searching for a pub. When I got home and checked the price I was surprised it was so much and more surprised it had sold so quickly.