RockyBalboa

James Clow

124 posts in this topic

Has anyone else bought a James Clow apartment?

Where are you all?

Please join in the discussion on the Titanic Quarter forum.

.....so I'm the only prize plonker who bought one of these am I?????.........where are you all?

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.....so I'm the only prize plonker who bought one of these am I?????.........where are you all?

Looks like you'll have the place to yourself ;)

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.....so I'm the only prize plonker who bought one of these am I?????.........where are you all?

afraid not i know of one other and myself that bought one of these apartments and believe me i am very worried about the whole thing. doest look like a mortgage can be got and we got a letter wrote to carson and mcdowell tellin them this and the are the least bit interested sayin thats its not really their concern and if yo didnt complete action would be taken and if action is taken i am screwed . if you and any others are willing to meet to disscuss this please let me know to get a time and a place sorted out. someone has to know something about something.

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afraid not i know of one other and myself that bought one of these apartments and believe me i am very worried about the whole thing. doest look like a mortgage can be got and we got a letter wrote to carson and mcdowell tellin them this and the are the least bit interested sayin thats its not really their concern and if yo didnt complete action would be taken and if action is taken i am screwed . if you and any others are willing to meet to disscuss this please let me know to get a time and a place sorted out. someone has to know something about something.

Hi, just replied to you on the other thread aswell. Don't panic. I'm sure the solicitor has to say something like that..they're not going to make it easy are they. The fact is that the apartments are going to be valued at considerably less (50% less?) than what we have to pay for them. Surely if it goes to court someone will take pity on us. I know they need to make a profit but when they planned these apartments way back in 2003(or before) they had no idea how high the market would climb....I bet they envisaged getting a lot less for them than they actually did so I can't imagine it would hurt them too much to knock 100k or so off the price! (in fact I seem to remember that on the day i queued up to buy one of these that when they had all sold they released another batch then and there at higher prices...they had no idea they would make so much and I bet they would still be well in profit if they sold at 2005 prices). So if they take us all to court hopefully the judge will recognise they could have a healthy profit if they agree to renegotiate and sell to us at a price that will not ruin us completely/force us to go bankrupt etc. Am I being too optimistic?

Someone I have been emailing who also bought in James Clow suggested hiring a hotshot solicitor as a group..i thought this may be a good idea. Am waiting to hear back from him.

I want to meet up but in London for work at the mo. When were you thinking of?

Edited by NICKYSTAR

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Surely if it goes to court someone will take pity on us. I know they need to make a profit but when they planned these apartments way back in 2003(or before) they had no idea how high the market would climb....I bet they envisaged getting a lot less for them than they actually did so I can't imagine it would hurt them too much to knock 100k or so off the price! (in fact I seem to remember that on the day i queued up to buy one of these that when they had all sold they released another batch then and there at higher prices...they had no idea they would make so much and I bet they would still be well in profit if they sold at 2005 prices). So if they take us all to court hopefully the judge will recognise they could have a healthy profit if they agree to renegotiate and sell to us at a price that will not ruin us completely/force us to go bankrupt etc. Am I being too optimistic?

I think you are being too optimistic and too simplistic. Your scenario is more of an arbitration one than one of contractual law. That's not to say that the developer will try to enforce the contract (in fact, this would likely be self-defeating where the defaulting buyer cannot complete). If the developer does try to enforce the contract in such cases, the best scenario would be that the court views the loss of the deposit as reasonable damages for the contractual default.

I would imagine that it would hurt the developer significantly to discount units to agreed buyers by an average of £100k per unit, since many developers will have projected cashflow on the basis of these sales which will have been used to fund (via bank lending) further projects.

I do genuinely have sympathy for the position that the forumers who've purchased units in James Clow / Titantic / Obel etc find themselves in but I agree with the view expressed in the other similar thread that its time for you guys to stop the theorising and start talking to the developer as its only postponing the inevitable and is in no-ones' interest (yours or the developers) in the long-run.

Edited by Ulidia

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I think you are being too optimistic and too simplistic. Your scenario is more of an arbitration one than one of contractual law. That's not to say that the developer will try to enforce the contract (in fact, this would likely be self-defeating where the defaulting buyer cannot complete). If the developer does try to enforce the contract in such cases, the best scenario would be that the court views the loss of the deposit as reasonable damages for the contractual default.

I would imagine that it would hurt the developer significantly to discount units to agreed buyers by an average of £100k per unit, since many developers will have projected cashflow on the basis of these sales which will have been used to fund (via bank lending) further projects.

I do genuinely have sympathy for the position that the forumers who've purchased units in James Clow / Titantic / Obel etc find themselves in but I agree with the view expressed in the other similar thread that its time for you guys to stop the theorising and start talking to the developer as its only postponing the inevitable and is in no-ones' interest (yours or the developers) in the long-run.

Hi U,

yes I realise that was highly optimistic/sarcastic..just putting it out for discussion. I think it is however realistic to estimate that a flat bought for 250k in 2007 may be valued at around 150k by the lenders at the moment...a very depressing thought. I did think that we should be gearing up to talk to the developer however after hearing from the poster (michaelmack) who did contact them i'm not so sure anymore. Might just bury my head in the sand and try to enjoy life until I have to face the music...

Edited by NICKYSTAR

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I think it is however realistic to estimate that a flat bought for 250k in 2007 may be valued at around 150k by the lenders at the moment...a very depressing thought.

They were never "worth" 250k, impo off plan flats that were marketed at these prices at the peak will soon be changing hands for less than 100k

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They were never "worth" 250k, impo off plan flats that were marketed at these prices at the peak will soon be changing hands for less than 100k

Ok...now I'm gonna have nightmares!!!!

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I think it is however realistic to estimate that a flat bought for 250k in 2007 may be valued at around 150k by the lenders at the moment...a very depressing thought.

I'd agree with you regarding the likely fall in the assessed value vis-a-vis purchase price at peak. In fact, given the fall in house prices over the last 12 months, together with likely continued falls in house prices during 2009 and the particular sensitivity of lenders to new build apartments in today's environment, it could be worse than that upon completion.

Add to that the significantly higher deposits required for mortgages (especially BTL mortgages, which will be required by many of the James Clow purchasers) and its a daunting situation for all involved - contracted purchasers, employees of the developer and so on.

Genuinely hope it all works out but, IMO, I'd talk to the developer sooner rather than later.

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Genuinely hope it all works out but, IMO, I'd talk to the developer sooner rather than later.

but what if their response is the same as their response to michaelmack: 'not our concern..if you don't complete we come after you'.. What is the way forward if you recieve an unconditional FO like that?

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Genuinely hope it all works out but, IMO, I'd talk to the developer sooner rather than later.

but what if their response is the same as their response to michaelmack: 'not our concern..if you don't complete we come after you'.. What is the way forward if you recieve an unconditional FO like that?

when ever you get back from london drop me a wee line and let me know when you wanna meet, do you know anymore jame clow victims the more the merrier

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Genuinely hope it all works out but, IMO, I'd talk to the developer sooner rather than later.

but what if their response is the same as their response to michaelmack: 'not our concern..if you don't complete we come after you'.. What is the way forward if you recieve an unconditional FO like that?

Well, its somewhat unchartered territory, given that the 10% deposit itself was likely sufficient to secure a mortgage on new-build apartments until recent times. There's differing legal opinion as to the likely approach a court would take so, for all the theoretical scenarios discussed on this thread, its important that you get independent legal advice sooner rather than later.

Developers will be well aware that many buyers will have difficulty completing and I'm sure that they are taking appropriate advice to ensure that their own interests are protected. Whether the strategy is one of "I'll see you in court" or a more concessionary approach is, I imagine, dependent upon each developer and their own circumstances (and the stance adopted by their own bankers).

However, whilst I'm not a developer, I'd be pretty sure that a developer would look less favourably upon a buyer who buried their head in the sand until completion, rather that a buyer who gave reasonable notice of potential difficulties at the earliest possible opportunity.

Actions:

a ) take legal advice;

b ) subject to the legal advice, commence dialogue with the developer at the earliest possible opportunity.

Edited by Ulidia

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Like I said elsewhere, the whole thing is a mess. I appreciate that it is unfortunate that you guys are the ones left with your hands up but it is indicative of the ridiculous system that was in operation - i.e. buyers on mass making legal agreements based on finances they just do not have. This should be the action of an idiot, not the norm!

You guys no doubt see this as a terrible thing for you but the fact that so many now occupy this untennable position means that it is bigger than you - there is the chance that you may well decimate local property development and bring about even more widespread job losses in the construction sector. If you cannot pay and the developer cannot take a 40+% hit then it is inevitable.

Overall I suspect that the massive scale of the problem means that the buyers will come out ok.

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Like I said elsewhere, the whole thing is a mess. I appreciate that it is unfortunate that you guys are the ones left with your hands up but it is indicative of the ridiculous system that was in operation - i.e. buyers on mass making legal agreements based on finances they just do not have. This should be the action of an idiot, not the norm!

You guys no doubt see this as a terrible thing for you but the fact that so many now occupy this untennable position means that it is bigger than you - there is the chance that you may well decimate local property development and bring about even more widespread job losses in the construction sector. If you cannot pay and the developer cannot take a 40+% hit then it is inevitable.

Overall I suspect that the massive scale of the problem means that the buyers will come out ok.

i reaaly hope you ae right as this is one of the biggest stresses i have ever had the thought of losing everything i have over putting a feckin deposit down is beyond me

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If you've purchased on the James Clow development you'd probably be interested in having a look at this site:

http://www.jamesclow.info - It's not a case of people not wanting to complete - it's simply not going to be technically possible. The very nature of that development leans towards the majority being prospective owner occupiers.

Put very simply - if the developer decided to knock 50k off every apartment tomorrow - the vast majority would still have serious difficulty completing.

Neither the developer nor the purchaser are in the market for a long and protracted court case which cannot end successfully for either party.

As the months progress, developers, banks and purchasers are starting to realise that the answer is one that is palatable and workable to all.

Any developer on any project can threaten to take you or I to court - but if they can successfully sue - they'd also need to be happy with a payback of £150 monthly for the next kazillion years.

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As the months progress, developers, banks and purchasers are starting to realise that the answer is one that is palatable and workable to all.

Yes of course but you have already stated the problem.

Put very simply - if the developer decided to knock 50k off every apartment tomorrow - the vast majority would still have serious difficulty completing.

There is only so far the developers can go. I think that you are right - however the discounts will be paid for by those in the construction industry who will lose jobs. TBH the one that I think will be a disaster is Titanic. People will get their reductions but the money wont be there to complete the greater development and this wonderful idea that they bought into will be destroyed by the stupidity of the buyers.

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If you've purchased on the James Clow development you'd probably be interested in having a look at this site:

http://www.jamesclow.info - It's not a case of people not wanting to complete - it's simply not going to be technically possible. The very nature of that development leans towards the majority being prospective owner occupiers.

Put very simply - if the developer decided to knock 50k off every apartment tomorrow - the vast majority would still have serious difficulty completing.

Neither the developer nor the purchaser are in the market for a long and protracted court case which cannot end successfully for either party.

As the months progress, developers, banks and purchasers are starting to realise that the answer is one that is palatable and workable to all.

Any developer on any project can threaten to take you or I to court - but if they can successfully sue - they'd also need to be happy with a payback of £150 monthly for the next kazillion years.

Hi,

as regards the james clow site, do you know who set it up? How do we know its not the developers themselves?

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Hi,

as regards the james clow site, do you know who set it up? How do we know its not the developers themselves?

Nickystar you've been reading HPC to long , paranoia setting in ;)

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Nickystar you've been reading HPC to long , paranoia setting in ;)

You're so right. I need to relax. Off wine for January which hasn't helped. Keep having court room nightmares!

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well nicky one of the guys who bought in james clow will be in london next week if you wanna meet

It's Rocky now....

is it someone from housepricecrash?

I'd be happy to meet up for a chat...might feel a bit funny about meeting strange man on my own though. How long they over for?

Edited by RockyBalboa

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It's Rocky now....

is it someone from housepricecrash?

I'd be happy to meet up for a chat...might feel a bit funny about meeting strange man on my own though. How long they over for?

just for the day will chat to him to find oout what day

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Hi,

as regards the james clow site, do you know who set it up? How do we know its not the developers themselves?

Could they - or why would they be bothered? http://www.jamesclow.info was set up because there needs to be a central platform for James Clow purchasers only. We're all in the same predicament and I'd much rather we all bang 20 collective heads together than do it separately. :unsure: Get in all in the same place and it makes it easier and more comfortable for everybody.

Apart from that - it's not intended as a catalyst for mass action of any sort - there's no hidden agenda - it's good to talk - simple as. Everyone needs to stop talking about having difficulty completing and accept that it's just not gonna happen ... how can it? If any one of you was financially sound enough to complete then you probably wouldn't have bought there in the first place! Any professional investor worth his/her salt vacated the market long before James Clow arrived. You will only stop worrying yourself sick when you finally work out that this is bigger than all of us - developers included.

To answer your question, someone set it up anonymously on behalf of several people they had spoken to - including one or two on this thread. It's entirely feasible that that someone might even have been me? How's that for paranoia :ph34r:;)

Now get yourself over there if you've purchased and we'll see about getting you some counseling :P

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Everyone needs to stop talking about having difficulty completing and accept that it's just not gonna happen ... how can it? If any one of you was financially sound enough to complete then you probably wouldn't have bought there in the first place!

Don't admit that to a judge. 'Your circumstances have changed', would be better I think.

Look at it, for one minute, from the Developers point of view. They are now aware that this is happening. They surely know that they are going to have to try and force the majority of completions. If the bank would let them off the hook and the orginial land owner would give them the money back, they in turn would allow everyone out and pigs will fly. But here's the point

They have to complete the building because they are contractually obligated to do so via the 100's of legally binding contracts they have with all the purchasers. They cannot stop (unless the bank stops them). Therefore a judge will take the contract as a two way enforceable contract. I cannot see him 'setting it aside' as that would set a precedent that would render any contract in the future not worth the paper it is wrote on.

However this leaves the old adage 'you can't get blood from stone' and that will work if you have no assists(car, home, savings, future inheritance, etc.) or income above the minimum wage. If you have a good job with 'disposable income' well -that will do nicely thank you.

Remember it wont be the developer who will be seeking this. It will be his lender, the bank in the background. They have all been bailed out and now know they are untouchable. Like all money lenders they want it back.

If you are in this situation get independent legal advice right away (not just the Solicitor you used to enter the contract). Don't bury your head in the sand. This is not America where you post the keys back (Jingle mail) the law is different here.

Some developers/lenders are going to discover what 'Specific performance' really means (£80 per month)

However some investors will also discover the consequences of not fulfilling their legal promises.

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