Middle Class Exit

[Marina]

But you think it's OK to migrate and increase some other country's immigation!

You don't make sense.  Except that it seems quite clear that _you_ don't like immigrants.  How you judge that "...lots of people..." agree with you, you don't explain.

p

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Have you ever paused for a second and considered how thick you are? Try reading what I actually wrote. I didn't say I did not like immigrants. It is my observation that lots of other people don't like high levels of immigration - which is not the same thing. Er, if this wasn't the case, how come Michael Howard has received so much support for simply saying 'we will put controls on immigration - like Australia'.

Another observation I would make is that, sometimes, I feel like a stranger in my own country. When a relative was ill, at death's door and in hospital recently I couldn't help noticing that the staff in the NHS were from every country in the world - except England. Is this right? Is this wrong? Does it matter? I don't know but instinctively I found myself muttering at a time of crisis 'is there anyone English left in England?'. Does that make me a bad person?

You always get politically correct tossers that pick up on the wrong thing. My point was that if this country is so great, how come so many people are planning to leave? I think they are fed up with all the things I put in my original post and, to repeat what I said, many are fed-up with high levels of immigration.

What's really wrong is this mad modern world - people working 90 hour weeks to pay huge mortgages - worried about education, the NHS, pensions, the future for their children, crime, the rise of the moron chav culture. Let me give you an example:

I live in a town that has been voted in some survey or other 'the second most pleasant place to live in England'. Okay, so we have big houses here and there is lots of money about the place. Middle-class suburban dream.

A couple of weeks ago at 6.30pm on a Friday evening my wife and I decided to go down the local Indian restaurant (run by immgrants!) for a meal. A few shops along is a cash machine. We wanted some cash (so we could leave a tip for the immigrants!) so we went to the cash machine. There were two white (looked English to me) young men at the cash machine. When we were about 5 yards from the machine one of the men turned round and puked on the floor. They were clearly drunk. The other one got his money, they turned, stepped over the puke and walked off as if nothing had happened.

The one who puked made no attempt to do it privately, he didn't move along the wall and puke down into the corner between the wall and the floor, he just turned around and puked all over the pavement. I guess I was lucky I was 5 yards away or I would have got covered. Then what? A fight and I no doubt would have been kicked half to death in front of my wife. As it was I got in my car in disgust and went to another machine.

Is this your idea of good old England? Something very wrong has happened in the last 20 years - which is why so many people want to leave - they want to live somewhere civilized.

[JustYield]

A few shops along is a cash machine. We wanted some cash (so we could leave a tip for the immigrants!) so we went to the cash machine. There were two white (looked English to me) young men at the cash machine. When we were about 5 yards from the machine one of the men turned round and puked on the floor.

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Puking-up all over a perfectly good begging spot. How inconsiderate.

[Marina]

Puking-up all over a perfectly good begging spot.  How inconsiderate.

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A good point. But, because this is such a 'nice' area, we don't have beggars. But we do have young men that puke all over the pavement without a thought for anyone else. Think I'd prefer a few beggars.

[JustYield]

A good point. But, because this is such a 'nice' area, we don't have beggars. But we do have young men that puke all over the pavement without a thought for anyone else. Think I'd prefer a few beggars.

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Careful what you wish for!

I had a chat recently with one of the regulars at the cashpoint in Angel, Islington (another nice area!). Unfortunately for him it was just after the tsunami disaster sometime in January, and I was not very sympathetic to his plight.

When I first ignored him he made a sarcastic comment under his breath, loud enough for me to hear - he wanted a reaction. I kneeled down next to him and asked him about his situation. He'd recently lost his mother and then lost the roof over his head. He was in this 30s I guess. He was coherent, looked reasonably strong and healthy (given his situation) but he'd totally given up, lost all self-respect and had resorted to begging. He said that in this country there is no way out [when you're in his situation].

I asked him if he was aware of the scale of the suffering following the tsunami and the surge of generous, charitable giving that followed. He was dimly aware of it but saw no connection, he just assumed I was ungenerous, selfish and mean. As I was about to walk away he muttered something about "You'd prefer it if I mug someone tonight then, would you?" I told him not to be so stupid and to have some self respect. Was I wrong?

[Apologies to anyone who was mugged that night in Islington.]

[Marina]

Careful what you wish for!

I had a chat recently with one of the regulars at the cashpoint in Angel, Islington (another nice area!).  Unfortunately for him it was just after the tsunami disaster sometime in January, and I was not very sympathetic to his plight. 

When I first ignored him he made a sarcastic comment under his breath, loud enough for me to hear - he wanted a reaction.  I kneeled down next to him and asked him about his situation.  He'd recently lost his mother and then lost the roof over his head.  He was in this 30s I guess.  He was coherent, looked reasonably strong and healthy (given his situation) but he'd totally given up, lost all self-respect and had resorted to begging.  He said that in this country there is no way out [when you're in his situation].

I asked him if he was aware of the scale of the suffering following the tsunami and the surge of generous, charitable giving that followed.  He was dimly aware of it but saw no connection, he just assumed I was ungenerous, selfish and mean.  As I was about to walk away he muttered something about "You'd prefer it if I mug someone tonight then, would you?"  I told him not to be so stupid and to have some self respect.  Was I wrong?

[Apologies to anyone who was mugged that night in Islington.]

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Unfortunately there have always been beggars and people on hard times who cannot cope. Nothing new there, that wouldn't make me want to leave this country. There are people that try to help people like this - so although there is some failure in society - there are some parts of society that try to repair the damage and help.

The deterioration in standards, the lack of common decency, the sheer bad bloody manners of turning round and puking on the pavement in front of someone, and then casually stepping over it and wandering off - well, words almost fail me. Not even a 'sorry mate' - nothing. How long before people simply drop their strides and s*it on the pavement when they feel like it?

[dogbox]

The one who puked made no attempt to do it privately,

Is this your idea of good old England? Something very wrong has happened in the last 20 years - which is why so many people want to leave - they want to live somewhere civilized.

Marina, agree with a lot of what u say about the rise of the chav, I too find it extremely depressing.

I think they have always been there, but now they have money (thanks to re - distribution) and are much more visible.

The 'me me, I have rights culture' also manifests itself by way of chavs asserting thier right to do as they wish and be inconsiderate. Have u seen the H P sauce advert!!!!

I detest monied chavs. Think Chigwell Essex housewives. Thier ignorance of anything other than consumption, Hello mags, MaCdonalds and football is truly appauling.

Chavs see 'being hard' as top of thier list. Even though I am not easily intimidated and can look after myself, I have absolutely no desire to fight anyone. Ive nothing to prove. A chav on the other hand will not 'turn the other cheak'. For them this is weakness. This creates masses of tension in society. For example, chav parents threatening teachers for highlighting child behavioral problems.

Ive argued with a freind that the overwhelming prevalence of the uncultured un - educated violent ignorant chav is unique to UK. She argu'es its the same in other European nations, but I find it hard to believe other nations suffer anything like the scale of problem we do.

[zzg113]

How long before people simply drop their strides and s*it on the pavement

I have already seen this more than once (in London). Also, men and women pissing in the street is commonplace.

He said that in this country there is no way out [when you're in his situation].

He was right (especially with today's high house prices).

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=583&id=91532005

[George]

Ive seen some teenage girls pissing in the street, un-fooking-believable!!! What's with people pissing in the streets? eww. English culture is predominately shite, ruled by football, the Sun, ten pint Rambo's and sunbed queens, avin it large innit. What a ***** place it has become. It's not the worst place on Earth but for a 1st world economy it is pretty shit. Friend once got attacked for walking through a park by 10+? chavs around the age of 13, some were only 4ft tall yet were willing to attack via run up kicks to his head. In Pakistan those kids would receive lashes.

[Ignorant Steve]

I got beaten up once.

2 blokes set on me and kicked my head in. Fractured jaw and 3 weeks of pounding headaches.

Mind you I was drunk and very lairy - probably deserved it on reflection.

[Marina]

Marina, agree with a lot of what u say about the rise of the chav, I too find it extremely depressing.

I think they have always been there, but now they have money (thanks to re - distribution) and are much more visible.

The 'me me, I have rights culture' also manifests itself by way of chavs asserting thier right to do as they wish and be inconsiderate. Have u seen the H P sauce advert!!!!

I detest monied chavs. Think Chigwell Essex housewives. Thier ignorance of anything other than consumption, Hello mags, MaCdonalds and football is truly appauling.

Chavs see 'being hard' as top of thier list. Even though I am not easily intimidated and can look after myself, I have absolutely no desire to fight anyone. Ive nothing to prove. A chav on the other hand will not 'turn the other cheak'. For them this is weakness. This creates masses of tension in society. For example, chav parents threatening teachers for highlighting child behavioral problems.

Ive argued with a freind that the overwhelming prevalence of the uncultured un - educated violent ignorant chav is unique to UK. She argu'es its the same in other European nations, but I find it hard to believe other nations suffer anything like the scale of problem we do.

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Bu@ger me, you've gone and ruined everything by writing another load of stuff I completely agree with.

[Marina]

Now I'm even more depressed about this country than normal. I don't normally come across all the appalling people described on here.

I saw a few on the telly last night - a program about people being told how to cure their kid's behaviour problems.

These programs make me feel uncomfortable - I don't want to exist in the same world as these people.

And before you say it, I'd rather shoot them than myself.

[Timmy Manson]

Ive argued with a freind that the overwhelming prevalence of the uncultured un - educated violent ignorant chav is unique to UK. She argu'es its the same in other European nations, but I find it hard to believe other nations suffer anything like the scale of problem we do.

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I can only speak from my experiences in Italy, France, Spain, and Germany. But in none of these countries have I encountered or seen anything like the appalling degradation of behavior that is commonplace in the UK.

[Marina]

I got beaten up once.

2 blokes set on me and kicked my head in. Fractured jaw and 3 weeks of pounding headaches.

Mind you I was drunk and very lairy - probably deserved it on reflection.

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There is something very liberating in acknowledging you deserved a good kicking.

[88Crash]

It's not the worst place on Earth but for a 1st world economy it is pretty shit.

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Thats the bit that I find hard to accept.

I spend a lot of time in South Africa and they certainly have some serious crime problems, but then you just have to shrug your shoulders and say

"What do you expect -its Africa"

Can't make the same excuse for the 4th richest country in the world!

[Mr Tickle]

I'm sorry but I must confess

I have both pissed and thrown up in the street.

I also sat in a bush in someones garden, kind of looked like a chair in the dark.

And people only pee in the street because its better than peeing themselves, you know if you've got to go .... well you know.

But I've yet to take a dump in the street, I shall hold my head high

[Jake]

I left the UK in 92, so I'm wondering when the "chav" thing started? As far as I remember it wasn't there when I left. "Naff" was the term.

So I honestly ask, What is a Chav?

[Timmy Manson]

So I honestly ask, What is a Chav?

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Defined as 'Coucil House And Violent', probably something of a misnomer as

most of the council houses were sold in the eighties

[Grime- skint wouldbe ftb]

I'm sorry but I must confess 

I have both pissed and thrown up in the street.

Ha ha, youve just reminded me! I'm not making this up to garner approval from the HousePriceCrash groovy kids or anything, this is 100% true.

I once pissed through the letterbox of an Estate Agents

AND it was one on Islington Green

must've been about 1991 now I think about it...

aah, the good ol days

[RichM]

Chav = shell suit wearer = kappa slappa = pikey = towney = rat boy

In a way they are offensive terms directed at a sub-group of the white working class, i.e. the generally lawless, anti-social attitude, probably welfare-dependent, definitely consumerist, underclass. Listen to "Same old thing" by the Streets, it's a good summary.

While the term is now widely used in the meedjah, I have yet to see a good explanation of how the WWC ended up in such a state... Probably a mix of welfarism/entitlement culture/"not my fault it's 'cos I'm deprived" defeatism/collapse of the CoE and sexual morality/a splash of cheap consumer goods...

Some would blame Thatcher, but that's another argument!

[JustYield]

Chav (n):

"Emerging British subculture which is quickly becoming an epidemic. Chavs can be found the length and breadth of the country, hanging around any junk food outlet, off licence or just hanging around the streets, where they pass the time by vandalising property, drinking cheap cider, shouting abuse at passers by and terrorising old people.

Appearance: Chavs have a strict dress code. Designer labels are everything, although knocked off/fake items are almost de-rigeur. Typically, the male chav will wear a Nickelson or Schott hooded top, baggy tracksuit trousers, white designer trainers, and a baseball cap by burberry or Nike. The female chav (chavette) will have peroxide blonde hair scrunched so tight into a pony tail with colourful scrunchies that her forehead stretches. She will wear a dark blue tracksuit with white stripes, an enormous puffa jacket, hoop earrings, and white trainers. Female chavs are forbidden from wearing socks, and all chavs must wear as much fake gold jewellery as they can fit on their bodies. Mobiles are an added status symbol, and when equipped, the chav must shout into it in the most anti-social way possible, using at least one expletive and the word "innit" per second. Every other word in between should be unrecognisable to non-chavs."

Chavettes were known as Kappa-slappers for a while.

Q. What's a chavette's favourite wine?

A. "Ke-ev, ya goin' take me t' Lakeside or wot?"

[Michael]

Bu@ger me, you've gone and ruined everything by writing another load of stuff I completely agree with.

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yes, old Dogbox may be wrong when it comes to houses but always hits the nail on the head when it comes to chavs?...............did you read about the ghastly chav child 's birthday party he went to at the playbarn!.........one of the best posts yet!

[Michael]

I can only speak from my experiences in Italy, France, Spain, and Germany. But in none of these countries have I encountered or seen anything like the appalling degradation of behavior that is commonplace in the UK.

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yes, low class people exist everywhere but only in Britain is their low classness celebrated in a brash way.........

[Timmy Manson]

yes, low class people exist everywhere but only in Britain is their low classness celebrated in a brash way.........

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It's the overt celebration of the most appalling behavior, the pride that the offenders take in there behavior, and the general apathy of society in general towards it that is amazing.

Oh and the attitiude that the offender can't be to blame for there behavior.

[Wishful Thinking]

Can't say there are as many about in Cornwall. Don't think they can afford designer wear here...

First thing I heard about Chav's was on this messageboard! Never knew they existed. At first I thought it was just a dig at flashy working class people, now I know it's not quite as simple as that. I blame the rise of reality shows on TV... and the cult of the loudmouth and the "I want to be famous for 10 minutes, although I've got absolutely nothing interesting to say or do". Just look at the rise of Lizzie what's her name from wife swap. She seems to be on every reality show on TV lately, celebrity bashes etc.

[JBFTB]

It's the overt celebration of the most appalling behavior, the pride that the offenders take in there behavior, and the general apathy of society in general towards it that is amazing.

Oh and the attitiude that the offender can't be to blame for there behavior.

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Yep, see this far far too much these days. Saw it on the road this morning. I was in the outside lane, behind some obnoxious chavette in her blue chavmobile (Saxo or something with gigantic spoiler). Proceeded across the roundabout and watched her change lane, cutting right in front of the car in the inside lane. The guy blasts her. Her response? She turns and gives him the finger, as if how dare he blow his horn at her after she almost collided with him? It's exactly that kind of "pride-in-being-a-total-sh1t-and-adding-insult-to-injury-because-I-enjoy-it" attitude that personifies chavs to my mind.