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scarlets79

The Problems With Atheism

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Oh really. How do you know that Jesus meant that for that man only? Is that your interpretaton or simply what you've been told?

Yes to this question my correct interpratation can eleborate jusk ask. Howeverr if Jesus had asked me to go and sell everythng I had and give it to the poor I would ask for his grace to inable me to do so.

How about the comand to turn the other cheek, give a man the shirt off your back if he demands your coat? Presumably these are meant for other people as well. The idea that Jesus's teachings can be presented in such a sanatized form is absurd.

No to this.

I find the inclination of fundamentalists to constantly tell others that they're condemned by unbelief (to the detriment of any other aspects of the Christian faith) to be a strangely pathalogical tendancy. I think it is an attempt to say to people that they are themselves now justified to god through their faith and that consequently others are not. Although this ignores some of the contempary difficulties that Pauline scholars have with the doctrine of jusification: e.g. http://www.thepaulpage.com/.

i will not have time at the mo to go and read paulines views but i will just stick to what the bible about being justified by faith in christ. Ephesians ch2 v 8 For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of not God.

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What utter rot!

I think that it's worth pointing out for starters that the woman put a fairly hefty amount of work into the field to make it do something useful rather than you who are simply buying up property to sponge off of the hard work of others. If you read the whole proverb it sounds like the woman is putting a fair amount of effort into setting up a business to produce a great deal of useful output rather than simply helping to inflate an asset bubble to steal wealth from other people. Let's read on:

Verse 19:

"In her hand she holds the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers"

Verse 22:

"She makes coverings for her bed; she is clothed in fine linen and purple"

Verse 24:

"She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes"

Verse 31:

"Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate"

Yes agreed. Very busy woman like most mothers today. She works hard for her family and the central message of this passage and also what is placed in high regard in the whole bibe is somene who works hard. Which I strive to do every day and also as the bible says whatever you do, do it with all thy might.

What a model of economic virtue! I wonder by how much she has increased the GDP of her village? How many people does she employ?

It dosent say how many people she employs but read about Abraham making his way to land which God had promised. It dosent mean that all christians will and should have loads of land and property but the same in reverse for those who do.

The bible has some excellent economic advice in it, actually:

Amen to the above have to agree

Proverbs 17:16

"Of what use is money in the hand of a fool,

since he has no desire to get wisdom?"

Amen and Amen

Proverbs 13:11

"Dishonest money dwindles away,

but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow."

Amen

I'd think about that one while you're building your little buy to let empire if I was you.

By the way, are you going to be borrowing any money to buy your little investment because the bible's not too keen on banking, you know:

Proverbs 22:26

"Do not be a man who strikes hands in pledge

or puts up security for debts"

Leviticus 25: 35-37

"If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest of any kind [a] from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit."

Deuteronomy23:19

"Do not charge your brother interest, whether on money or food or anything else that may earn interest."

Proverbs 22:7

"The rich rule over the poor,

and the borrower is servant to the lender."

John 2:15

"So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables."

Finally, can I ask whether you're at all concerned about Matthew 19:21-23:

"21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Will address the other qoutes later need to attend to my children

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i will not have time at the mo to go and read paulines views but i will just stick to what the bible about being justified by faith in christ. Ephesians ch2 v 8 For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of not God.

You are aware that "pauline" in this context means "pertaining to Paul" rather than the views of somebody called Pauline, don't you? Just checking.

What then is the nature of this faith that saves us all? How does having faith in Jesus lead to our salvation (I have my own answer to this question by the way and I'll happilly share it, I'd just like to know what you think first)?

Edit:

By the way, I notice that you have said "Amen" to this quote:

"Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow."

Presumably this means you agree with it. Could you please tell me how buy-to-let constitutes honest money?

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Another debating fallacy : petitio principii, or more commonly, begging the question. You are using an unproven event (the resurrection of Jesus) to prove the validity of christianity, which in itself, rests entirely on the ability of Jesus to survive the grave. Another term for this is a circular argument.

Unproven? Do explain.

Adj. 1. unproven - not proved; "unproved allegations"; "unproved assumptions" (see http://www.thefreedictionary.com/unproven )

It does not follow that christianity is valid, just because atheists have never beaten death. By asking rhetorical questions like this you are showing flawed logic. In debating circles this would be refered to as non sequitur.

debating fallacy #1: not answering the bloody question.

Why are you so unwilling to confirm that no atheist has beaten death?

It is not a debating fallacy to dismiss irrelevant questions in debate. Try to be a little more empathic when debating. You may wish to preach to me, but that is not the purpose of this debate. You should try to stick to one line of reasoning if we are ever to reach a satisfactory conclusion to this topic. Think what you would say if I asked you a new question in every reply that had no bearing on the argument at hand. What if I asked you whether Elton John had a hair transplant or how dangerous dust mites were? Do you think your question has any greater bearing on the argument in question? If it had I assure you I would have answered it, but I am not about to enter new lines of debate just to let you off the hook.

[PS : as a christian you should be aware of the etymology of "bloody" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody. If I believed in christian teaching, you wouldn't catch me using such profanity]

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You are aware that "pauline" in this context means "pertaining to Paul" rather than the views of somebody called Pauline, don't you? Just checking.

What then is the nature of this faith that saves us all? How does having faith in Jesus lead to our salvation (I have my own answer to this question by the way and I'll happilly share it, I'd just like to know what you think first)?

Edit:

By the way, I notice that you have said "Amen" to this quote:

"Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow."

Presumably this means you agree with it. Could you please tell me how buy-to-let constitutes honest money?

If Christ died for the sins of the world ,as the bible says,and forgivness of our sin is a free gift,by grace ,then our Faith in Gods grace saves us from our sin as this Faith is faith in the propititionary sacrifice of Gods son for us.The only thing we bring to God is our sin which was paid for by his Son.

and the buy to let thing yip i do think it is honest money as it is an agreement entered into by consenting parties .

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If Christ died for the sins of the world ,as the bible says,and forgivness of our sin is a free gift,by grace ,then our Faith in Gods grace saves us from our sin as this Faith is faith in the propititionary sacrifice of Gods son for us.The only thing we bring to God is our sin which was paid for by his Son.

and the buy to let thing yip i do think it is honest money as it is an agreement entered into by consenting parties .

If I buy weapons or slaves or drugs from somebody then that is an agreement entered into by 2 consenting parties. Is that honest money?

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If Christ died for the sins of the world ,as the bible says,and forgivness of our sin is a free gift,by grace ,then our Faith in Gods grace saves us from our sin as this Faith is faith in the propititionary sacrifice of Gods son for us.The only thing we bring to God is our sin which was paid for by his Son.

and the buy to let thing yip i do think it is honest money as it is an agreement entered into by consenting parties .

What is the nature of our sin and how does Jesus' sacrifice help to atone for it?

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If I buy weapons or slaves or drugs from somebody then that is an agreement entered into by 2 consenting parties. Is that honest money?

if the item your buying is legal and as far as you know can be used for honest useage then it is honest money.

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SLedge you were a chrisitan 10 days from this post not a very strong faith then was it ;)

..

You have not read my post properly. I was refering to scarlets who lapsed from procaliming the bible to be truth to claiming it was either true or it was not - hence my jibe that she had become agnostic

Im sorry i dont have the ame patience for you people as scarlet does

If you were truly sorry, you would acquire patience. If you were touched by your god, you would be patient:

“Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness” (Colossians 1:11).

all ill say is all the unbelife will be burnt out of you in hell,

John 8:15

You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.

John 12:47

And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

You sure about that stacey? Or are you passing judgement on me yourself? After all, Jesus says he is the judge and says he isn't, so it's up to interpretation (fancy a real god leaving things that ambiguous LOL). If you interpret something, that means you are using your judgement. That means it is YOU who are judging me. How do you feel your god will take that?

John 5:22, 27

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son

What the heck, just go usurp your own god. Knock yourself out stacey. LOL

i bit strong you might think but true all the same.

The problem is you have no REASON to believe this. Nor do I, so I choose not to believe. You may feel your words have some kind of effect on me. Perhaps you hope to "put the fear of god in me." I assure you, I have no fear of the god you believe in, because he does not exist. You might as well tell me the Incredible Hulk is about to crash through my roof.

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What is the nature of our sin and how does Jesus' sacrifice help to atone for it?

the nature of our sin is breaking Gods law ie the 10 commandments and jesus does not "help" to attone for them it is fully atoned for complete and utter atonement. AT ONE MENT, this means that they are deleted in the person of christ , at one ment we are at one with the the one who made atonement.

It had to be christ because christ was sinless and only an innocent God/Man Jesus could attone, ie a sinner cannot pay for the sins of someone else or his own. Thats why penance is of no effect. Only to satisify a person own self rightousness. Sins are what seperates us form God permanently thats why when Jesus was on the cross he said my father my father why hast thou forsaken me. All the sins of the world were on him the sinless sacrafice Jesus.

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if the item your buying is legal and as far as you know can be used for honest useage then it is honest money.

Stacey, you should answer the questions put to you earlier properly before you continue on other items

Also, you should realize that whilst you believe in God in earnest, your communication method / style is your own and represents you as an individual

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You have not read my post properly. I was refering to scarlets who lapsed from procaliming the bible to be truth to claiming it was either true or it was not - hence my jibe that she had become agnostic

If you were truly sorry, you would acquire patience. If you were touched by your god, you would be patient:

“Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness†(Colossians 1:11).

opps sorry my fault you were taking what scarlet said out context get you now ;)

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the nature of our sin is breaking Gods law ie the 10 commandments and jesus does not "help" to attone for them it is fully atoned for complete and utter atonement. AT ONE MENT, this means that they are deleted in the person of christ , at one ment we are at one with the the one who made atonement.

It had to be christ because christ was sinless and only an innocent God/Man Jesus could attone, ie a sinner cannot pay for the sins of someone else or his own. Thats why penance is of no effect. Only to satisify a person own self rightousness. Sins are what seperates us form God permanently thats why when Jesus was on the cross he said my father my father why hast thou forsaken me. All the sins of the world were on him the sinless sacrafice Jesus.

OK so sin is that which seperates from God - it is that which is contrary to God's law. God would therefore have to be without sin. What then is the nature of God?

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opps sorry my fault you were taking what scarlet said out context get you now ;)

Yes, very amusing I'm sure. As I'm certain you are aware, having finally read my posts, I was making banter wrt scarlets apparent agnosticism. However, I was making a serious point, which neither you nor scarlets seem interested in.

People will note that whilst I have addressed EVERY point you raised, you have not done me the same service. I will adjust my approach accordingly and insist you stick to the centarl premise. If you wish we proceed more informally, you shoud address the issues I raised in my response here http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...mp;#entry581580

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OK so sin is that which seperates from God - it is that which is contrary to God's law. God would therefore have to be without sin. What then is the nature of God?

How interesting that it's all gone quiet all of a sudden. I think a lot of christians struggle a little with this one which is rather ironic given the purpose of this thread.

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How interesting that it's all gone quiet all of a sudden. I think a lot of christians struggle a little with this one which is rather ironic given the purpose of this thread.

It may be it's because stacey is female. She's actually going against god by even trying to preach:

1 TIMOTHY 2

2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence

So that's religious transgressions in judgement and teaching, and she's only uttered a handful of sentences to me!

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Define honest usage.

Would you be willing to borrow money from a bank to fund your investment? Would you say that constitutes honest money?

Ok I read your thread re the lending money with all the scripture verses attached and i have to stand corrected that i was willing to borrow money to fund this project and i will now be very convicted about doing so. I suppose a mortgage is the same as renting tho as you are in debt to someone its either rent and pay someone elses mortgage or pay your own. All these things as christians have to be considered and I would only invest in something if i felt it was the right thing to do and belive me it will be thourghly exhausted before i even think about. Also if I had the readies to go and purchse i would defo buy abroad but i would firstly give of my tithes and offerings of any monies I would have.

So anyway does this mean that im not saved no it means I have been rebuked by you and does this mean i will go to hell no it means that God uses all means to make all men consider him in every single thing they do, I serve a wonderful saviour and if it means me having to back out of this to hounor God then praise him for his mighty works and i will be praying for you and ask God to give me a love for you people on here as scarlet has shown. God Bless You all will be praying for each and every one of you that i have spoken to on here. Just came on in the first place to show Scarlet she wasn't on her own. ;)

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How interesting that it's all gone quiet all of a sudden. I think a lot of christians struggle a little with this one which is rather ironic given the purpose of this thread.

Gods chief attribute is holiness.

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Gods chief attribute is holiness.

Wrong answer: Holiness is the state of being holy, that is, set apart for the worship or service of God or gods. It is most usually ascribed to people, but can be and often is ascribed to objects, times, or places. The word holy is related to the word whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy

Do you have another answer, or does your being christian mean you must stick with this, whether right or wrong? ;-)

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Stacey,

First of all, hats off for re-thinking your decision like that. To re-examine your ideas in such a manner, and to have the courage and integrity to say so on a forum like this not an easy thing to do.

If you don't mind, I'd like to carry on with the second strand of our discussion a little longer as it's starting to go somewhere interesting.

Would you be so kind as to explain to me what exactly you mean by holiness?

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Would you be so kind as to explain to me what exactly you mean by holiness?

What's the point? Stacey's idea of what holy means is obviously at odds with convention. In all probability any words she uses to tell you what she meant by "holiness" might equally break with convention - ie, she migt as well explain "holiness" in martian, for what good it will do your understanding of her perspective!

For me the alarm bells are ringing. You could be about to waste a whole lot of time!

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Atheism is an intellectual position. What reasons do you have for holding that position? Your reasons are based upon logic, and/or evidence or lack of it.

Perhaps it is for these reasons that God considers atheists make good conversation.

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Ok I read your thread re the lending money with all the scripture verses attached and i have to stand corrected that i was willing to borrow money to fund this project and i will now be very convicted about doing so. ...

So anyway does this mean that im not saved no it means I have been rebuked by you ..

Stacey, you seem to be labouring under the delusion that IAA20SGMOOH (Why choose such a name ???!!!!! :-) ) is trying to make you understand you are not saved by virtue of your lack of scriptural knowledge on borrowing. He is in fact trying to make you understand you are not saved PERIOD. Indeed, if you had a greater scritural knowledge you would understand this, because you would realise that scripture is not th word of god .

Has is not yet occured to you that the ministers and preachers who have taught you, might have decided to omit other aspects of scripture from their preaching? Have you ever imagined how empty the churches would be if the sin of mortgage was preached every Sunday? Have you ever imagined how empty the churches would be if preachers discussed the miriad of contradictions present in the bible? Have you ever wondered whether you should read the bible properly before believing?

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