Topher Bear

So What Was A Ftb Place In Years Gone By

99 posts in this topic

[quote]this thread is unbelievable.  I read the channel 4 forum quite a lot and ftbers are always told we're expecting too much and to buy a one bed and shut up cos everyone has it tough.[/quote]

wannabe is right. The thing is, even a mouldy one-bed hole is out of reach of most FTBs across the nation.

The high cost of living, especially housing, and a deksilled, McJob-heavy economy is severely impoverishing 20 and 30 somethings. In fact, a decade ago during the mass-downsizing era, sociologists were identifying a genration that do not witness the same abundance as their parents. The mid-90s saw the Tories improving the economy rapidly but the media endlessly pondered why there was no feel-good factor (hardly a mystery when companies were making huge profits and thanking workers with the sack).

I know I bang on about his stuff, but I do feel that the folk in highly-paid sinecures that can afford to post here all day don't realise just how badly off the younger generation are as a whole.

And if you want to be a Mum or a Dad, well, face poverty or forget it.

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[quote name='zzg113' date='Dec 11 2004, 06:09 PM']The Channel 4 Forum is full of w@nkers. Read the recent thread about someone not being able to move into their new house so wanting to stay in their old house for a bit. From the reactions of the people on there you'd think they'd suggested biting babies heads off and feeding them to the wolves. Bunch of c*nts. Even with 50% falls this generation of FTBs will not be able to buy as much house for their money as the baby-boomers.
[right][post="43556"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Well....... The big difference is the absence of wage inflation. If you look at my post 4 or 5 up, I really struggled to buy my first house, which really wasn't very nice. I could only have afforded a I bed flat in a better area, but chose a cheaper area and slightly bigger house. The big difference was that after yearly 20% wage increase (yes really) your huge mortgage became manageable, and you could think about trading up.

SO.... oldies like me are not far off the mark when they say it was hard to buy a house, however inflation helped. My elder brothers had to rent for 3 to 4 years, do without and save to get on the ladder.

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I think with globalisation, huge immigration and outsourcing, we will never see large-scale wage inflation again.

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[quote]The mid-90s saw the Tories improving the economy rapidly but the media endlessly pondered why there was no feel-good factor (hardly a mystery when companies were making huge profits and thanking workers with the sack).[/quote]


An improving economy does not= more jobs, or more well-paid jobs. Actually, an improving economy can sometimes mean less jobs, as firms increase profits by cutting costs (ie jobs). For every increase in productivity, there is one more job lost.

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[quote name='zzg113' date='Dec 11 2004, 06:21 PM']I think with globalisation, huge immigration and outsourcing, we will never see large-scale wage inflation again.
[right][post="43561"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Well I hope not. Whilst good for mortgagees it was a disaster for people on fixed incomes e.g. pensioners.

Having tackled inflation, the property market just needs to wake up to the fact that buying a house is now "long-term" loaded i.e. prices need to drop to levels that allow people to trade up throughout their lives.

For these reasons, prices simply have to fall - there is nothing to prop them up and cause future increases in values. The recent years' increase is simply a speculator fed bubble, which has to burst - it's not natural or real.

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[quote]The recent years' increase is simply a speculator fed bubble, which has to burst - it's not natural or real.[/quote]


Tell that to all the FTBs who panicked in recent years and bought for fear that they would be priced out forever. Tell them that the telephone-number-size mortgage on their bank statements every month isn't real.

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[quote name='zzg113' date='Dec 11 2004, 06:34 PM']Tell that to all the FTBs who panicked in recent years and bought for fear that they would be priced out forever. Tell them that the telephone-number-size mortgage on their bank statements every month isn't real.
[right][post="43567"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
I know all that. I meant the recent increases aren't aligned to wage inflation, as they were in the past. Ergo they will drop. Sensible people don't lie about their incomes to buy an unrealistically valued house - the one's who did were foolish.

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[quote name='muttley' date='Dec 11 2004, 11:39 AM']You say that you don't expect prices to fall significantly in your area,but they would have to rise in order for you to profit,unless you bought well BMV.
If you are so confidant that there will be no significant drop then what attracted you to this site?

Good luck with your plan.
[right][post="43444"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
I admit that the timing of our first purchase may not have been good, we should have bought sth when we moved to UK in 2000. However, you only know such things afterwards. In 2000 all my colleagues and many "experts" said that house prices are far too high and that they soon will come down. Four years later we decided that we don't want to rent any longer, and we were lucky enough to find a suitable flat in a nice area. We got it about 5-10% below market value because the vendors wanted to move quickly, and because the decoration was old and ugly - typically English with loads of strong colours and old, smelly carpets. I cannot understand how people can live with smelly carpets - and in one room they did not even remove the old carpet but put a new carpet on top of the old one. UGLY!. We removed every carpet, wallpaper and furniture and decorated the flat from scratch. Now everything is nice, new and bright. Owning and renting is a very big difference, and we are so happy that we no longer have to rent. This is worth the risk of buying at the wrong time. And I am not convinced that it really was the wrong time as such an opportunity (our flat) does not come often.

This site gives a good overview about positive and negative house price news, so I check it frequently. Bad news do not really concern me, because we would only sell if we can sell with a profit. However, our plan to move abroad does not depend on the value of our flat but only on job opportunities, as we did not overstretch ourselves at all with the purchase of our flat.

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[quote name='LION' date='Dec 11 2004, 10:26 PM']This site gives a good overview about positive and negative house price news, so I check it frequently. Bad news do not really concern me, because we would only sell if we can sell with a profit. However, our plan to move abroad does not depend on the value of our flat but only on job opportunities, as we did not overstretch ourselves at all with the purchase of our flat.
[right][post="43618"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

you clearly bought at the top of the market, will struggle to sell at a profit for several years to come, plus tied up what appears to be a very large amount of cash (to get a repayment mortgage to work out the same as rent in this market takes quite a low LTV ratio) into an asset with a good chance of short/medium term decline. your saving grace is the repayment aspect, and probably justifies being able to take a long term view with what you've got.

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[quote name='wannabe FTB' date='Dec 11 2004, 05:06 PM']this thread is unbelievable.  I read the channel 4 forum quite a lot and ftbers are always told we're expecting too much and to buy a one bed and shut up cos everyone has it tough.

When I buy I'd like to buy somewhere big enough to have a family, as my dream has always been to be a full time mum.  i don't see this happening as there is no way even with 30% drops we could buy on my husbands salary.
[right][post="43555"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

My parents first house was a three bed terraced, but that doesn't really do it much justice as it was (and still is) massive, my sisters purchased in the late 80's was a 2 bed terraced bought for £45K went down to about £32k in the crash and is now worth about £100K.

My first house bought in 2000 was a 4 bed detached, sounds a bit better than it was but it was pretty good.

I agree that I don't think people in general realise how bad it is for FTB's.

Its OK to talk about a 1 bed flat as a first rung on the ladder but thats if its a single person on a lower than average wage, if your a young couple I think you should be looking at a 2 bed terrace place. The problem is a 1 bed flat is beyond most peoples reach these days.

Its already been mentioned but I think wage inflation is one of the big problems, my salary for example has gone down over the last 4 years rather than up. The idea you can buy a one bed flat and then trade up just doesn't work any more.

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[quote]The idea you can buy a one bed flat and then trade up just doesn't work any more.[/quote]


In a low-inflation environment the property ladder is dead.

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Thanks for all the replies.

some very quick number crunching shows that no-one bought a 1 bed place to start, and a third bought 2 beds and two thirds bought 3 beds! so a couple in their late 20's early 30's CAN expect to buy a 3 bed place.

Interestingly during the 70's the trend was reversed with more 2 beds, and no-one has bought in the 90's. Are their really no OO out there who bought their first place in the 90's and is posting on this website? are they all not interested?...in fact none from 88 throught to 99.

sample size is small, but with 4 in the 60's, 6 in the 70's and 6 in the 80's, seems odd to have none in the 90's

keep 'em coming, looks like we've blown another property myth out of the water! :P

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[quote name='Topher Bear' date='Dec 12 2004, 12:40 AM']Thanks for all the replies.

some very quick number crunching shows that no-one bought a 1 bed place to start, and a third bought 2 beds and two thirds bought 3 beds!  so a couple in their late 20's early 30's CAN expect to buy a 3 bed place.

Interestingly during the 70's the trend was reversed with more 2 beds, and no-one has bought in the 90's.  Are their really no OO out there who bought their first place in the 90's and is posting on this website?  are they all not interested?...in fact none from 88 throught to 99.

sample size is small, but with 4 in the 60's, 6 in the 70's and 6 in the 80's, seems odd to have none in the 90's

keep 'em coming, looks like we've blown another property myth out of the water!  :P
[right][post="43666"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
I think some of the older generation just don't think about it, their attitude is that we had to struggle so anybody who complains wants it handed to them on a plate. What they don't consider is that many young people do expect to struggle but are just a little peeved that they have to struggle to by a tiny one bed flat rather than a 2 bed terrace.

I could buy a 2-3 bed terraced where I live but refuse to do so when they are 8x the average wage. I'm fortunate enough that me and my wife earn good money, not loads but well above average, but all we can really afford (still have some money free) is a one bed flat.

Another problem is that people are buying later and later in life, many of my friends are in their later 20's and early 30's and are still nowhere near buying property. The idea that their wages will increase as they progress up the career ladder is no longer relevant as many of them are well advanced before they buy that 1 bed flat.

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My parents were in married 1/4ers until I was 8 , there first house was a 3 bed semi with extension and a big garden.
Cant remember the cost but it was in .......... 70's , dont want to give my exact age away :D

Oh well stuff to do if I 'm going to sell the house , EA is round a week Monday for valuation.

l8rs :blink:

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[quote name='LION' date='Dec 11 2004, 10:26 PM']...

This site gives a good overview about positive and negative house price news, so I check it frequently. Bad news do not really concern me, because we would only sell if we can sell with a profit. However, our plan to move abroad does not depend on the value of our flat but only on job opportunities, as we did not overstretch ourselves at all with the purchase of our flat.
[right][post="43618"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Alarm bells.
You have bought at the top of the market. You seem like a rational minded, intelligent individual but you are displaying classic tendencies of vested interest denial!
There is a great possibility (in most peoples' on the site, a damn certainty), that your flat will be worth considerably less than you bought it for in 2/3 years time. Your intention of 'selling only if you can make a profit' may prove difficult. What do you do if you really want to move? Stay where you are on principal? Be prepared to sell at a loss - all is not lost, though; you'll buy somewhere else which is 30% cheaper than it is now!

There is a mode of thinking with so many folk at the moment (my property CAN'T go down in value!!!) and when the Spring bounce fails to materialise there will be a lot more pennies dropping... ;)

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[quote name='red' date='Dec 12 2004, 12:34 PM']Alarm bells.
You have bought at the top of the market. You seem like a rational minded, intelligent individual but you are displaying classic tendencies of vested interest denial![/quote]
We can move easily as our savings/salary allow us to let the property and make up for the difference between mortgage and rent easily. We could have bought a 350 k property (even without taking into account my wife's salary). However, because of justified concerns about the market situation we bought a 180 k property in need of refurbishment instead. After four years in rented accommodation renting was no option anymore for us - we wanted to start a family and have a place of our own. And 180 k was not small change for us, but not really a lot either.

I agree that these are difficult times for FTBers, and I dont know how any FTBer can afford to buy - well, anything really - in London without earning several times the average salary (as we do). I wish you all Good Luck with your property purchases, but don't be too disappointed if the prices do not fall as much as you hope. I generally think the British property market is mad and unfair, it is a bit like gambling, it is much better in Germany or Austria (where I come from), where property prices are stable and property is seen as what it should be: A place to live (for life) and not as an investment. The whole property ladder / FTBer thing is typically British - in Austria people normally save and then buy or build their first (and last) property in their life. My parents first property was a six bedroom three bathroom house in Austria which they built themselves on average salaries. And they still have it. No ladder required! My next property will also be a nice, detached house in Austria - after I have made enough money in Britain to buy such a property in Austria outright (this is the only reason why I still stay in this rainy country).

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Parents bought home on single wage earners salary 1967, cost £4,300, salary £1875. Valued at £240,000 Spring this year.

................................................................................
.........................

Call me a wild optimist but I predict a sharper fall than most people are predicting.

Why?

It's already happening. Prices are being slashed [b]now[/b]

Just wait until Spring when the FTB's [i]still[/i] haven't got the money. Gee, facy that! :rolleyes:

Watch the "closing down sale/price slash/total discount warehouse" fun

BRING IT ON!!!

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Bought our first property in 1975, 3 bed bungalow, in Bromley Kent (now apparently in South London!) for £10K.

My wife stayed at home and looked after the family, and I kept us and paid the mortgage, on a shop assistants wages.

I don't know how they dare talk about affordability today.

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[quote name='LION' date='Dec 12 2004, 07:17 PM']We can move easily as our savings/salary allow us to let the property and make up for the difference between mortgage and rent easily. We could have bought a 350 k property (even without taking into account my wife's salary). However, because of justified concerns about the market situation we bought a 180 k property in need of refurbishment instead. After four years in rented accommodation renting was no option anymore for us - we wanted to start a family and have a place of our own. And 180 k was not small change for us, but not really a lot either.

I agree that these are difficult times for FTBers, and I dont know how any FTBer can afford to buy - well, anything really - in London without earning several times the average salary (as we do). I wish you all Good Luck with your property purchases, but don't be too disappointed if the prices do not fall as much as you hope. I generally think the British property market is mad and unfair, it is a bit like gambling, it is much better in Germany or Austria (where I come from), where property prices are stable and property is seen as what it should be: A place to live (for life) and not as an investment. The whole property ladder / FTBer thing is typically British - in Austria people normally save and then buy or build their first (and last) property in their life. My parents first property was a six bedroom three bathroom house in Austria which they built themselves on average salaries. And they still have it. No ladder required! My next property will also be a nice, detached house in Austria - after I have made enough money in Britain to buy such a property in Austria outright (this is the only reason why I still stay in this rainy country).
[right][post="43789"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

I wish you the very best, LION - any cubs on the way, then?! ;)

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My parents bought their first property in 1963 a three bed-roomed bungalow in their mid-thirties I believe they paid £2,200 for it.

I bought my first property in 1987 a one bed-roomed flat at the age of 35 after renting for 18 years.

It cost me £31,000 I was earning £15,000 a year or £1,250 a month gross within 18 months interest rates were up to 15.5% and I was paying 50% of my net wages in mortgage payments. Other flats in the same building were not selling at £28,000 in 1992. I bought another one in 1996 for £40,000.

I sold both flats after renting them out for some years in 2002/2003 for £124,950 & 117,500.

Buying a first property has always been a stretch but I would not buy at current prices. It is just a matter of timing the only reason prices have got to these crazy levels is because many people are not prepared to wait for the inevitable correction.

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[quote name='zzg113' date='Dec 13 2004, 12:56 PM']f*ck, that must have been horrible.
[right][post="43966"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Well when I have to refer to that period of my life I call it the rock and roll years sounds better than the woodchip wall years. Still I was young

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[quote name='undeservingrich' date='Dec 14 2004, 10:30 AM']Well when I have to refer to that period of my life I call it the rock and roll years sounds better than the woodchip wall years. Still I was young
[right][post="44457"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


The simple truth is that this government more than any other in recent times have pulled up the ladder behind them. I find it unbelievable that even those of them who made it up from working class backgrounds (which isn't that many of them, but there are some) can impose tuition fees on a new generation that will condemn them to 5-10 years of poverty after graduation.

Being from a working class background myself and having graduated 5 years ago I am astonished at how many more barriers my sister (who is 7 years younger than me) faces to getting ahead.

I earn more than double the average london wage as does my girl friend and yet we would struggle to afford a two bedroom house in a decent area and our tax bill is huge. The massive injustice of exempting PPR's from capital gains tax has completely distorted the value of housing in comparison to other asset classes and has warped our entire economy but no political party would ever the b*ll*cks to reverse it as it would mean certain policitical suicide.

No doubt I will once again be derided as a bitter FTB, well actually yes I am bitter. I am sick to death of paying huge taxes from my hard earned salary while other people sit on the ar*ses and make a fortune from housing (people who got their houses at huge discounts under the right to buy scheme particularly p*ss me off) and pay no tax on it.

I would be grateful if someone to explain to me how this tax exemption can be regarded as fair when people already pay no tax on the "income" they get from their property (in saved rent).

Right then - rant over.

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[quote name='Cityfool' date='Dec 14 2004, 11:56 AM']The simple truth is that this government more than any other in recent times have pulled up the ladder behind them.  I find it unbelievable that even those of them who made it up from working class backgrounds (which isn't that many of them, but there are some) can impose tuition fees on a new generation that will condemn them to 5-10 years of poverty after graduation.

Being from a working class background myself and having graduated 5 years ago I am astonished at how many more barriers my sister (who is 7 years younger than me) faces to getting ahead. 

I earn more than double the average london wage as does my girl friend and yet we would struggle to afford a two bedroom house in a decent area and our tax bill is huge.  The massive injustice of exempting PPR's from capital gains tax has completely distorted the value of housing in comparison to other asset classes and has warped our entire economy but no political party would ever the b*ll*cks to reverse it as it would mean certain policitical suicide.

No doubt I will once again be derided as a bitter FTB, well actually yes I am bitter.  I am sick to death of paying huge taxes from my hard earned salary while other people sit on the ar*ses and make a fortune from housing (people who got their houses at huge discounts under the right to buy scheme particularly p*ss me off) and pay no tax on it.

I would be grateful if someone to explain to me how this tax exemption can be regarded as fair when people already pay no tax on the "income" they get from their property (in saved rent).

Right then - rant over.
[right][post="44485"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Your right no government is going to tax capital gains on PPRs.

So there is no point in ranting about the unfairness of it all.

It’s just a game learn the rules and play it.

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My parents bought a 3 storey end of terrace with cellar and garden in 1970 in Manchester for about £1k I think, no mortgage. My dad came to this country in the early 60s flogged his guts out doing the jobs the natives didin't want to do, scrimped & saved to start his own business in 1968.

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