dogbox

Morocco - My Next Target

763 posts in this topic

Andy

Im interested to find out about a small commercial unit within the site.
I have spoken to Fadesa direct about the same subject.

Is this your bag?

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[quote name='dogbox' post='403389' date='Jun 20 2006, 12:38 PM']
Andy

Im interested to find out about a small commercial unit within the site.
I have spoken to Fadesa direct about the same subject.

Is this your bag?
[/quote]

I will make a couple of calls and get back to you ASAP.

Watch this space!!!!!

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[quote name='dogbox' post='403389' date='Jun 20 2006, 12:38 PM']
Andy

Im interested to find out about a small commercial unit within the site.
I have spoken to Fadesa direct about the same subject.

Is this your bag?
[/quote]


Hi Dog Box

I have just been given a direct contact number by Property Logic for the lady to talk to with Fadesa in Morocco.

I will give her a call tomorrow and let you know how i get on.

Andy

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[quote name='dogbox' post='403389' date='Jun 20 2006, 12:38 PM']
Andy

Im interested to find out about a small commercial unit within the site.
I have spoken to Fadesa direct about the same subject.

Is this your bag?
[/quote]


Hi Dig Box,

The info that i have is as follows. Commercial units are available and they are rental / lease only at about 16 euros per sqm per month. Thats all they would tell me at the moment and have said that they would need to know more as to what kind of store you want to put there and what size you need + they prefer franchises.

Hope this helps

Andy

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[quote name='andy welland' post='403857' date='Jun 21 2006, 11:43 AM']
Hi Dig Box,

The info that i have is as follows. Commercial units are available and they are rental / lease only at about 16 euros per sqm per month. Thats all they would tell me at the moment and have said that they would need to know more as to what kind of store you want to put there and what size you need + they prefer franchises.

Hope this helps

Andy
[/quote]


Cheers

Ive heard the same. They want big international brands. Ah well, its good to know the developers are taking such pains to establish this as a premier resort.

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[quote name='dogbox' post='403867' date='Jun 21 2006, 10:58 AM']
Cheers

Ive heard the same. They want big international brands. Ah well, its good to know the developers are taking such pains to establish this as a premier resort.
[/quote]

You are so right, i am also glad that they are not just letting anyone take units there. This is just another factor in making La Saidia an exclusive resort.

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[quote name='dogbox' post='398161' date='Jun 12 2006, 04:43 PM']
Andy, Ive got my name down for a marina berth (purely as an investment), either 15m or 20m.

The agent Im dealing with tells me there are none left but has put me on a list if any should arrise.

Dont suupose you have one?
Andy, what about rent levels?

We use villas every year and always end up paying somewhere between £1000 - £2000 per week for detatched with pool, NOT ON A BEACH in a non chavvy resort in places such as Menorca. Smae for Sardinia and Greek islands such as Paxos.

When you think these villas will have the added benefit of being within walking distance of the beach and have the 3 golf courses, surely the rents will be reasonably strong?
[/quote]


Hi Dog Box,

I just got a personal message from you today regarding Marina births that we talked about some time ago at the time i posted the following reply.

Both Jardin de Fleur and Oasis are getting their marina births from Fadesa so if you contact them directly you might have a better chance of geting one. It might be that the agent you have been dealing with is only contacting JDF who only have 10m births left.

I dont know if this was an old message that has just come through but drop me a pm if you have any questions.

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[quote name='andy welland' post='403372' date='Jun 20 2006, 12:01 PM']
Hi fabs and everyone else,

Not much being said at the moment and I know the Port - Lixus info probably wasnt what everyone wanted to hear but if any of you are interested in the Emaar projects then hopefully we might have some news very soon.

All i can give you at the moment is a website where you can see an overview of there 5 projects so check out [url="http://www.emaar.com/morocco/"]http://www.emaar.com/morocco/[/url]

Some of you may have already seen it but if not its worth a look.

Hope this helps

I am also in La Saidia this friday so will i will take some new pictures for you all.

Andy
[/quote]

Just a bit of a general update for everyone, I have just got the first artist impressions on the Kerzner project at Mazagan which i have attached to this posting.

Also I was in La Saidia on Friday and was quite impressed as i have not been there for a few weeks. So here is a bit of an update....The King was visiting the site on the Saturday so there was lots of activity everywhere from Oujda airport all the way to Saidia. In the villages along the route they were painting everything from curbstones, walls and even the bottoms of the trees and generally having a really good tidy up. In the resort itself they have now started construction on 4 of the hotels and both the Barcelo hotel and the Magnum projects are well under way about 60 / 70% of the rough construction completed. The clubhouse for the golf course in phase 1 and the marina club are both taking shape. Also the Medina at the front of the comercial centre is well under way and from what i have been told the plan is that you will walk along the seafront towards the marina and then enter the Medina through a Moroccan archway which all sounds really nice. They have also started work on the bars and restaurants that will be alongside the marina, but this has only just begun.

Keep an eye on www.lejardindefleur.com as they will be launching a webcam within the next couple of weeks that will be situated on top of the Fadesa building. The great thing is that you will be able to control the camera and be able to see not just the progress of JDF but also other parts of the project.

Hope this helps.

Andy[attachment=3584:attachment][attachment=3585:attachment][attachment=3586:attachment][attachment=3587:attachment]

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[quote name='fws' post='406703' date='Jun 28 2006, 10:58 AM']
Thanks for the update Andy. Dogbox what did you do about the marina berth?
[/quote]

Im torn between the berth, another property in Saidia (a cheap appartment this time) or just investing in the shares of SPEYMILL DEUTSCHE IMMOBILIEN / other shares investing in German real estate!!!!!!!!!!

Re the berth, Im trying to find out how values increase say in 3 years despite the fact the initial 20 year lease will only have 17 years left??

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[quote name='dogbox' post='406727' date='Jun 28 2006, 10:34 AM']
.........Im trying to find out how values increase say in 3 years despite the fact the initial 20 year lease will only have 17 years left??
[/quote]


Why ??

So you can sell and run ??

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[quote name='BigLog' post='406858' date='Jun 28 2006, 03:35 PM']
Why ??

So you can sell and run ??
[/quote]


Hi Big Log,

Why else would he ask the question hahahahaha

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[quote name='andy welland' post='406671' date='Jun 28 2006, 10:19 AM']
Just a bit of a general update for everyone, I have just got the first artist impressions on the Kerzner project at Mazagan which i have attached to this posting.

Also I was in La Saidia on Friday and was quite impressed as i have not been there for a few weeks. So here is a bit of an update....The King was visiting the site on the Saturday so there was lots of activity everywhere from Oujda airport all the way to Saidia. In the villages along the route they were painting everything from curbstones, walls and even the bottoms of the trees and generally having a really good tidy up. In the resort itself they have now started construction on 4 of the hotels and both the Barcelo hotel and the Magnum projects are well under way about 60 / 70% of the rough construction completed. The clubhouse for the golf course in phase 1 and the marina club are both taking shape. Also the Medina at the front of the comercial centre is well under way and from what i have been told the plan is that you will walk along the seafront towards the marina and then enter the Medina through a Moroccan archway which all sounds really nice. They have also started work on the bars and restaurants that will be alongside the marina, but this has only just begun.

Keep an eye on www.lejardindefleur.com as they will be launching a webcam within the next couple of weeks that will be situated on top of the Fadesa building. The great thing is that you will be able to control the camera and be able to see not just the progress of JDF but also other parts of the project.

Hope this helps.

Andy[attachment=3584:attachment][attachment=3585:attachment][attachment=3586:attachment][attachment=3587:attachment]
[/quote]


Many thanks for that Andy, good to hear the Magnum apartments are coming on.

Sheila

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[quote name='andy welland' post='406863' date='Jun 28 2006, 03:49 PM']
Hi Big Log,

Why else would he ask the question hahahahaha
[/quote]


So basically no long-term intention.

Just cut and run, and sod the local economy.

How very noble.

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[quote name='BigLog' post='407143' date='Jun 29 2006, 09:34 AM']
So basically no long-term intention.

Just cut and run, and sod the local economy.

How very noble.
[/quote]


Hi Big Log,

First of all i am glad to see that yourself and others are still coming to the forum as it seemed to go quite for a little while, also unlike other chat sites this one seems to be keeping a level head about it and we are able to have an adult conversation with each other and post genuine views and opinions.

I didnt mean to sound as though i agreed with what Dog Box asked. It is just that if someone asked me that question then it would suggest that their intention was to sell it on after a couple of years.

I also think that it doesnt matter where in the World people buy, there will always be people that are buying for an investment to then flip it and move on.

Please put this into context though as this is the only posting on this forum that i have ever seen the question asked and to be honest i dont think that one person who wants to buy a marina birth and look at it as a quick / short term investment will have a dramatic effect on the local economy.

I think that in 3 years time there will be plenty of end user clients that would love to take on a marina birth that didnt have the opportunity, confidence or forsight to buy one now and that is why they will then pay a higher premium for that product, he also would have to offer it to Fadesa first who are going to be setting the minimum sales price anyway.

If you asked the question to everyone who has bought in La Saidia then i would guess that at least 80% of them if not more at this current moment in time will be looking to sell at some point in the future. It could be 3 years, 5 years, 10 years or even 20 but they will be looking to sell on.

The majority of people who buy abroad are not looking for a relocation they are either looking for a holiday home, rental property or pure investment.


Also please find attached some pictures from last Friday

Good to chat with you Big Log

Andy

[attachment=3593:attachment][attachment=3592:attachment][attachment=3591:attachment][attachment=3594:attachment]

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[quote name='andy welland' post='407192' date='Jun 29 2006, 10:47 AM']
Hi Big Log,

First of all i am glad to see that yourself and others are still coming to the forum as it seemed to go quite for a little while, also unlike other chat sites this one seems to be keeping a level head about it and we are able to have an adult conversation with each other and post genuine views and opinions.

I didnt mean to sound as though i agreed with what Dog Box asked. It is just that if someone asked me that question then it would suggest that their intention was to sell it on after a couple of years.

I also think that it doesnt matter where in the World people buy, there will always be people that are buying for an investment to then flip it and move on.

Please put this into context though as this is the only posting on this forum that i have ever seen the question asked and to be honest i dont think that one person who wants to buy a marina birth and look at it as a quick / short term investment will have a dramatic effect on the local economy.

I think that in 3 years time there will be plenty of end user clients that would love to take on a marina birth that didnt have the opportunity, confidence or forsight to buy one now and that is why they will then pay a higher premium for that product, he also would have to offer it to Fadesa first who are going to be setting the minimum sales price anyway.

If you asked the question to everyone who has bought in La Saidia then i would guess that at least 80% of them if not more at this current moment in time will be looking to sell at some point in the future. It could be 3 years, 5 years, 10 years or even 20 but they will be looking to sell on.

The majority of people who buy abroad are not looking for a relocation they are either looking for a holiday home, rental property or pure investment.
Also please find attached some pictures from last Friday

Good to chat with you Big Log

Andy

[attachment=3593:attachment][attachment=3592:attachment][attachment=3591:attachment][attachment=3594:attachment]
[/quote]



Hi Andy,

I don't believe that Dogbox is looking just to 'flip' the Marina. I'd guess that the villa will go as well.

So, I don't agree or see how this will aid the local economy one jot.

It is a well known phenomenon in the UK that outsiders flock to towns they have no real intentions of living in other than a couple of weeks a year and therefore pricing out the locals.

Why oh why must we British export this greed ??

From a very early age, I've had a very hard time accepting this. And some 20+ years later, still refuse to play this game.

I would also suspect, knowing Morocco the way I do, that there could be a certain amount of legislature in place to curb this type of Speculation as this has been seen in Marrakech.

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[quote name='BigLog' post='407143' date='Jun 29 2006, 10:34 AM']
So basically no long-term intention.

Just cut and run, and sod the local economy.

How very noble.
[/quote]


Not at all!

The locals in Saidia are currently being retrained. There are free courses for everything from buiding management, maintenance, horticulture, golf course maintenance, chefs, security, hotel staff (for the 8 large hotels) etc.

Others are gearing up thier business's in the Town of Saidia its - self. The ripple will affect local farmers, fishermen and of course the value of property and land owned by locals.

The fact some investors buy for the short term is irrelevant. Trade is the lifeblood and the best welfare programme available.

I may hold longterm but its always wise to know your exit route options in advance.

Traditional socialist notions of pouring aid into undeveloped parts of the world has produced no sustainable benefits. Africa is today poorer than it was 10 years ago!!!!!!!

Trade and commernce is the key. This is the only lasting way locals can empower thier lives and carve a sustaible lifestyle and to free themselves of aid dependancy.

Only a fool stuck in old fashioned 1970s white middle class thinking, will fail to realise the lot of Moroccans will vastly improve as a result of all this development.

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[quote name='dogbox' post='407210' date='Jun 29 2006, 11:10 AM']
Not at all!

The locals in Saidia are currently being retrained. There are free courses for everything from buiding management, maintenance, horticulture, golf course maintenance, chefs, security, hotel staff (for the 8 large hotels) etc.

Others are gearing up thier business's in the Town of Saidia its - self. The ripple will affect local farmers, fishermen and of course the value of property and land owned by locals.

The fact some investors buy for the short term is irrelevant. Trade is the lifeblood and the best welfare programme available.

I may hold longterm but its always wise to know your exit route options in advance.

Traditional socialist notions of pouring aid into undeveloped parts of the world has produced no sustainable benefits. Africa is today poorer than it was 10 years ago!!!!!!!

Trade and commernce is the key. This is the only lasting way locals can empower thier lives and carve a sustaible lifestyle and to free themselves of aid dependancy.

Only a fool stuck in old fashioned 1970s white middle class thinking, will fail to realise the lot of Moroccans will vastly improve as a result of all this development.
[/quote]


And ONLY a greedy fool stuck in the property hype groove will fail to realise that Moroccan's lives won't improve just because you've out-priced them out of their local market, in many ways, and not just in property.

How do you know the price of (e.g.) local produce will remain the same historically once you've arrived ? Could it not go up ridiculously due to the new local resident's deeper pockets ?? What, do farmers just grow more do they ?

And the other land owned by the locals, is mostly owned by the already affluent - so they'll only get richer. And what will they do ?? Give the poor ones a leg-up ?? No, make sure they *never* get up !

I didn't say pouring in Aid was the answer. Where did I say that ?

Where is YOUR BUSINESS MODEL that YOU are making. By buying a holiday home ?

And then what, flogging it off to the next Mug.

Locals learning to carry your Golf clubs will always remain at the bottom of society, don't kid yourself of that Dogbox. Edited by BigLog

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Hi Big Log.
I understand your standpoint and until recently my stance would have been somewhere between yours and that of DogBox. But I have found my views changing. Take this comparison - not an ideal comparison, but I'm sure you'll get my point:

I've been to Estonia twice in last few months. Their economy is doing well and both property & land are appreciating at a very high rate. There are a lot of Estonians that can see how to make money if they had £30k or so to start with, but they simply don't have that kind of money. (Average salary is about £5k p.a. Very low considering prices of new build property there.) They have been priced out of their local property market - as will be happening in Saidia. Yet they don't complain. Things are much better for them now than before. Many of them remember what it was like to not have food or a roof over their heads from the Soviet era. They would not change back. So while there are the negatives you have mentioned, the benefits can outweigh them. That's my view anyway - more akin to views of Dogbox and others.

Its certainly encouraging to here about courses designed to help locals grasp the opportunities that will come thier way.

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[quote name='BigLog' post='407224' date='Jun 29 2006, 12:39 PM']
And ONLY a greedy fool stuck in the property hype groove will fail to realise that Moroccan's lives won't improve just because you've out-priced them out of their local market, in many ways, and not just in property.

How do you know the price of (e.g.) local produce will remain the same historically once you've arrived ? Could it not go up ridiculously due to the new local resident's deeper pockets ?? What, do farmers just grow more do they ?

And the other land owned by the locals, is mostly owned by the already affluent - so they'll only get richer. And what will they do ?? Give the poor ones a leg-up ?? No, make sure they *never* get up !

I didn't say pouring in Aid was the answer. Where did I say that ?

Where is YOUR BUSINESS MODEL that YOU are making. By buying a holiday home ?

And then what, flogging it off to the next Mug.

Locals learning to carry your Golf clubs will always remain at the bottom of society, don't kid yourself of that Dogbox.
[/quote]


Tell that to the people of Corfu for example. The average person is vastly better off in financial terms than they were pre - tourism.

How about Bali? Do you really suggest the locals have not benefited?

What alternative plan to suggest to inflict on the Morocanns that have endured decades of poverty??


[quote name='BigLog' post='407248' date='Jun 29 2006, 01:24 PM']
I live in Morocco by the way.
[/quote]

I noticed you characterised the lot of Moroccans as 'golf bag carriers'. What about the local galleries and artists? How about the local Bank that need to employ more locals to service the much greater flow of money form Taxis and every other local business?

How about local builders being commisioned to extend locally owner restaraunts?

Then there will be all the local municipal services that need to expand to cope with a vast increase in road and other infrastructure useage.

The local electrician needed for all the electric signs. Tour guides to the desert. Ski challets and ski instructors in the nearby mountains.

Teachers needed for the influx of families

What is your alternative plan please given the poverty over the last few decades?

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Dogbox,

Just answer this question.

You've *never* been to Morocco.

Am I right or am I wrong ??

When ? Where ? How often ?

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[quote name='BigLog' post='407257' date='Jun 29 2006, 01:40 PM']
Dogbox,

Just answer this question.

You've *never* been to Morocco.

Am I right or am I wrong ??

When ? Where ? How often ?
[/quote]


My freind who is also purchasing in Saidia went a couple of weeks back and made a DVD of the visit. He is my eyes and ears.

My favorite hotel group is the 'Aman' chain. They opened in Morocco recently. They have a habit of spotting new trends before anyone else.

Something interesting is going on which sets Morocco apart; Unlike say Tunisia or Bulgaria or Greece or Egypt, from the outset most of the tourism investment is by large up market providers. This is highly unusual. Morocco represents a unique proposition.

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[quote name='dogbox' post='407262' date='Jun 29 2006, 12:51 PM']
My freind who is also purchasing in Saidia went a couple of weeks back and made a DVD of the visit. He is my eyes and ears.

My favorite hotel group is the 'Aman' chain. They opened in Morocco recently. They have a habit of spotting new trends before anyone else.

Something interesting is going on which sets Morocco apart; Unlike say Tunisia or Bulgaria or Greece or Egypt, from the outset most of the tourism investment is by large up market providers. This is highly unusual. Morocco represents a unique proposition.
[/quote]


Ah ! So there we have it.

Why is it Dogbox that you give me the impression that you can't admit to the word 'no' - that you've never, ever visited this country that you are hyping so much and telling everyone how beautiful it is ??!

Ho hum. okay - I think I'll just watch this all unfold.

In fact, I don't really know why I'm bothering.

You and I can touch base in 3 years time. And we'll see when you try to sell your villa and berth.

BTW, off topic, I see people on the Channel4 Forums are now citing bubbles bursting in Dubai. Now, how did I know that'd happen.........??

Finally, Dogbox, your string of predictions (that used to adorn your signature but you've taken off for some strange reason) - in particular the one about the FTSE hitting 6500 by the end of 2006 is looking a little off target. You seemed very proud of these predictions. Any reason why you took those predictions away ?? Edited by BigLog

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[quote name='BigLog' post='407271' date='Jun 29 2006, 02:09 PM']
Ah ! So there we have it.

Why is it Dogbox that you give me the impression that you can't admit to the word 'no' - that you've never, ever visited this country that you are hyping so much and telling everyone how beautiful it is ??!

Ho hum. okay - I think I'll just watch this all unfold.

In fact, I don't really know why I'm bothering.

You and I can touch base in 3 years time. And we'll see when you try to sell your villa and berth.

BTW, off topic, I see people on the Channel4 Forums are now citing bubbles bursting in Dubai. Now, how did I know that'd happen.........??

Finally, Dogbox, your string of predictions (that used to adorn your signature) in particular the one about the FTSE hitting 6500 by the end of 2006 is looking a little off target. Any reason why you took those predictions away ??
[/quote]

The FTSE prediction is looking shakey. The 'prices to rise by 8 - 10% by summer end' looks on though.

Dubai - anyone with a brain has been avoiding Dubai for about 4 years.

Again Im in good company if Saidia doesnt work out. Here's just a few of the companies investing on the iste, Hilton, Barcello, Fadesa (Spains 2nd biggest), Armani, Channel, Boss, Marie Eaux, Mango, Budha Bars, Aparthotels. The 2 supermarkets are a big Spannish chain called 'Carrefour' - I guess they expect a decent return and have done thier homework.

Other investments include Emaar (worlds biggest dev), the people (forget the name) behind Sun City and the One and Only brand, Ryan air and many more.
But hey, what do they know!

The world changes you know, Malaysia was third world 40 years ago. Now its the 16th richest.
Negative people said Ireland would remain the basket case of Europe as recently as 8 years ago!

Morocco has 6 Government sanctioned sites within Plan Azur. Saidia is the pinnacle dvelopment and will certainly become a world renowned destination.


EDIT TO ADD; You have lots to say on which investments you consider bad.
Id be interested to know which you would consider a good home for your hard earned? Edited by dogbox

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