DOW falls 1100 points

[winkie]

5 hours ago, ftb_fml said:

Totally agree with this. I think people have always been greedy and shallow; the problem being that now more than ever it's being shamelessly fuelled and capitalised upon by the establishment. Brainwashed consumers perpetually binging on disposible tat provides their pointless, vacuous existance with a brief, shallow sense of meaning, achievement, satisfaction and status.. until it quickly fades away in the shadow of the next debt-fuelled consumer crutch required to keep up with the Jones' and validate their existance.

The mechanism ticks many boxes - it keeps people working, placated, distracted, indebted.. while continuing to feed the ponzi economy.

Those who lose out are ultimate the environment through resource / energy consumption and waste and pollution, while the consumer has to run ever-faster in their hamster wheel to keep on spending.

Sadly we live in a society that's increasingly alienating us from the things that truely matter - friends, family, meaningful interactions, nature, exercise and replacing them with shallow sources of instant gratifcation which ultimately only serve to make us more disfunctional and alienated.

The whole situation is increasingly unsustainable and will come to an end sooner or later - bit it for economic, environmental or social reasons.

As someone who abhors most of the goals of our horrible society, this can't come soon enough

All the best things life are free......we have been manipulated by big business to believe that what you buy is what will make us happy.......like exercise equipment and gym membership, when walking and exercising is free, fancy creams and procedures to make ourselves more beautiful, a smile costs nothing , obsessed with aging.....obsessed with cleanliness..... obsessed in projecting an image of the 'perfect' life, job, home, partner, children etc.....when perfection doesn't exist.

Like everything.....whatever is held can be taken away/lost/removed just as quickly without notice......nothing we hold is ours to keep forever.

Edited April 5, 2018 by winkie

[Pop321]

10 hours ago, ftb_fml said:

Totally agree with this. I think people have always been greedy and shallow; the problem being that now more than ever it's being shamelessly fuelled and capitalised upon by the establishment. Brainwashed consumers perpetually binging on disposible tat provides their pointless, vacuous existance with a brief, shallow sense of meaning, achievement, satisfaction and status.. until it quickly fades away in the shadow of the next debt-fuelled consumer crutch required to keep up with the Jones' and validate their existance.

The mechanism ticks many boxes - it keeps people working, placated, distracted, indebted.. while continuing to feed the ponzi economy.

Those who lose out are ultimate the environment through resource / energy consumption and waste and pollution, while the consumer has to run ever-faster in their hamster wheel to keep on spending.

Sadly we live in a society that's increasingly alienating us from the things that truely matter - friends, family, meaningful interactions, nature, exercise and replacing them with shallow sources of instant gratifcation which ultimately only serve to make us more disfunctional and alienated.

The whole situation is increasingly unsustainable and will come to an end sooner or later - bit it for economic, environmental or social reasons.

As someone who abhors most of the goals of our horrible society, this can't come soon enough

This completely. 

Not suggesting this spending and instant gratification is restricted to any generation but I noticed something over Easter which worried me. I have 3 young nieces (20 to 26) who when we discuss wealth, spending and life generally they don't even understand the point you are making....like a drug addict might look bemuse when told they have a problem. 

They ask why I don't spend my money....buy a Ferrari or a bigger TV. I explain I am spending my money this year on the thing that everyone told me money couldn't buy.....time. I retire modestly at 50. 

I have vices and spend on unnecessary things (cheap travel the main one) but they are conscious decisions....not zombie spending. And my purchases are relatively modest and I measure them in time ie how long did this purchase cost me to earn. 

The whole economy is built on fuelling demand for iwatches, big screen TVs, cars on credit and working like crazy. It is awful....even those out enjoying a stroll in the country are often 'fitting it in' inbetween other activities and purchases. 

People can make the decision to live like this, it's a free world....my worry is some don't recognise it or consider there are other ways of living.  Like the drug addict who snarls and smirks at anyone who suggests life without the drug might be better. 

I am not sure I see the end....the government needs the the population to earn and spend. These little battery hens pay the bills. 

The DOW and FTSE probably needs it too. 

I hope you are right and there is change and people challenge what they really want and how they really want to live. 

Thx for a great post. ?

[winkie]

24 minutes ago, Pop321 said:

This completely. 

Not suggesting this spending and instant gratification is restricted to any generation but I noticed something over Easter which worried me. I have 3 young nieces (20 to 26) who when we discuss wealth, spending and life generally they don't even understand the point you are making....like a drug addict might look bemuse when told they have a problem. 

They ask why I don't spend my money....buy a Ferrari or a bigger TV. I explain I am spending my money this year on the thing that everyone told me money couldn't buy.....time. I retire modestly at 50. 

I have vices and spend on unnecessary things (cheap travel the main one) but they are conscious decisions....not zombie spending. And my purchases are relatively modest and I measure them in time ie how long did this purchase cost me to earn. 

The whole economy is built on fuelling demand for iwatches, big screen TVs, cars on credit and working like crazy. It is awful....even those out enjoying a stroll in the country are often 'fitting it in' inbetween other activities and purchases. 

People can make the decision to live like this, it's a free world....my worry is some don't recognise it or consider there are other ways of living.  Like the drug addict who snarls and smirks at anyone who suggests life without the drug might be better. 

I am not sure I see the end....the government needs the the population to earn and spend. These little battery hens pay the bills. 

The DOW and FTSE probably needs it too. 

I hope you are right and there is change and people challenge what they really want and how they really want to live. 

Thx for a great post. ?

Yours is a good post also.

[crashmonitor]

10 hours ago, GreenDevil said:

You've got to "Buy the Dip!"

Yep ig pointing to a 100 point rise on the FTSE 100 today...we'll see. 

[Fence]

4 minutes ago, winkie said:

Yours is a good post also.

Indeed.  He/she scrubs up well!  Yeh, I'm not alone and, in this regard at least, not mad.  I just keep thinking of the ponzi Roman Empire.

[Maximus Skepticus]

If it goes up...it's still going down.....endless BS from years of lies

 

[Fence]

2 hours ago, Maximus Skepticus said:

If it goes up...it's still going down.....endless BS from years of lies

Nice guy.  Must be Durhamborn's (deflation thread) insider!

[Pop321]

18 hours ago, winkie said:

All the best things life are free......we have been manipulated by big business to believe that what you buy is what will make us happy.......like exercise equipment and gym membership, when walking and exercising is free, fancy creams and procedures to make ourselves more beautiful, a smile costs nothing , obsessed with aging.....obsessed with cleanliness..... obsessed in projecting an image of the 'perfect' life, job, home, partner, children etc.....when perfection doesn't exist.

Like everything.....whatever is held can be taken away/lost/removed just as quickly without notice......nothing we hold is ours to keep forever.

 

12 hours ago, winkie said:

Yours is a good post also.

No.....yours was a good post too ??. Cheers Mr Wink  

I think an increasing awareness of alternative options. And what is refreshing is some young 'uns as well.  

The DOW and FTSE company components have changed radically over the last 30 years and they will change again. Maybe those that cater for the less 'material' needs will be those that succeed. And no....I can't even think of an example. 

[Kosmin]

41 minutes ago, Pop321 said:

 

No.....yours was a good post too ??. Cheers Mr Wink  

I think an increasing awareness of alternative options. And what is refreshing is some young 'uns as well.  

The DOW and FTSE company components have changed radically over the last 30 years and they will change again. Maybe those that cater for the less 'material' needs will be those that succeed. And no....I can't even think of an example. 

I'm not sure "material" is the right place to focus. The trend in recent decades has been from material things to experiences. People don't strive to accumulate as much as previous generations (in part because people live in smaller homes and move more often), but their experiences often seem to be as much about showing off as more traditional forms of conspicuous consumption.

[scottbeard]

13 hours ago, Kosmin said:

I'm not sure "material" is the right place to focus. The trend in recent decades has been from material things to experiences. People don't strive to accumulate as much as previous generations (in part because people live in smaller homes and move more often), but their experiences often seem to be as much about showing off as more traditional forms of conspicuous consumption.

Part of that trend is actually a positive - most material things are now so cheap that striving to afford them isn't necessary.  50 years ago having a car or a TV was a "big thing" that you needed to save for.  Now they aren't.

What people THOUGHT would happen in the 1950s is that by the 2010s we'd all be working 2-3 days a week and enjoying lots of (cheap) leisure time sat in the garden.

What ACTUALLY is happening is that people still work 5 days a week, but then use that extra money on enjoying lots of (expensive) leisure time such as foreign holidays and eating out in restaurants.

The massive fly in the ointment of course is that whilst "stuff" and holidays are cheaper than they've ever been, houses are more expensive than they've ever been.  So whilst it's dead easy for a 22-year old to afford a fortnight's holiday in Thailand (an unthinkable idea in 1970, say) it's now impossible for them to EVER buy a house (also an unthinkable idea in 1970).

[Kosmin]

32 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

What people THOUGHT would happen in the 1950s is that by the 2010s we'd all be working 2-3 days a week and enjoying lots of (cheap) leisure time sat in the garden.

I think these estimates neglected cost disease (we get more and more productive at producing goods, but most services which rely on labour are not more productive, so these become relatively more expensive) and positional goods (a lot of people compete for scarce goods - e.g. house by the sea or river, or with a view...)

Also in a lot of jobs it's not feasible to ease off. If productivity doubles a factory worker may be able to do a shorter shift for the same standard of living, but in most jobs you have to be available to clients or others in your organisation much of the time. There just isn't a way for these people to work less.

In addition to all of this there is a culture of working to spend more and more, rather than working to achieve a comfortable level and then getting more secure and retiring early.

[scottbeard]

8 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

Also in a lot of jobs it's not feasible to ease off. If productivity doubles a factory worker may be able to do a shorter shift for the same standard of living, but in most jobs you have to be available to clients or others in your organisation much of the time. There just isn't a way for these people to work less.

But that's just a reflection of the society we have created for ourselves: we could design a workplace where two people share a professional job just as two people can share an assembly line job: any inefficiencies of having to share information between them is offset against a reduction in "key man" risk.

If I turn up at my GP Surgery I don't care which doctor sees me as long as they can fix what's wrong - if they've never seen me before does it matter?  There should be my notes on the system.  Any other nuances I can fill them in on.  The same approach could be workable for lawyers, accountants ,IT workers,  marketing managers etc if we set their workplaces up better.

[ThePrufeshanul]

"If I turn up at my GP Surgery I don't care which doctor sees me as long as they can fix what's wrong - if they've never seen me before does it matter?  There should be my notes on the system."

Hi there, no offence, but as a doctor myself I can tell you this is a complete misunderstanding of how medicine works. 

What you're suggesting has actually been tried and implemented on a national scale and has proven to be grossly inefficient. Unfortunately there is  widespread and mistaken belief that you can treat everything in life like a McDonalds drive through. You can't - not unless you are happy with much lower standards of care that costs much more. 

When you go to the doctor complaining of back pain from work or hallucinations caused by the stress of a relative dying or that you need counselling and guidance after being given a diagnosis that is completely different from your neighbour saying the same things. The only way to tell is by knowing the patient well - there is no other way to determine whether your pain is worse than his or whether it is likely to exist at all. Just having notes on a system is relatively useless since it results in both of you getting investigated with expensive scans and put on courses of medications until the notes say you are OK again.

In many ways that is the whole point of needing doctors in the first place rather than just googling your symptoms and having your medications posted to you.

[janch]

2 hours ago, ThePrufeshanul said:

"If I turn up at my GP Surgery I don't care which doctor sees me as long as they can fix what's wrong - if they've never seen me before does it matter?  There should be my notes on the system."

Hi there, no offence, but as a doctor myself I can tell you this is a complete misunderstanding of how medicine works. 

What you're suggesting has actually been tried and implemented on a national scale and has proven to be grossly inefficient. Unfortunately there is  widespread and mistaken belief that you can treat everything in life like a McDonalds drive through. You can't - not unless you are happy with much lower standards of care that costs much more. 

When you go to the doctor complaining of back pain from work or hallucinations caused by the stress of a relative dying or that you need counselling and guidance after being given a diagnosis that is completely different from your neighbour saying the same things. The only way to tell is by knowing the patient well - there is no other way to determine whether your pain is worse than his or whether it is likely to exist at all. Just having notes on a system is relatively useless since it results in both of you getting investigated with expensive scans and put on courses of medications until the notes say you are OK again.

In many ways that is the whole point of needing doctors in the first place rather than just googling your symptoms and having your medications posted to you.

Unfortunately this isn't how it works in real life any more.  Most GPs seem to have so many patients that it would be impossible to know them all.

[ThePrufeshanul]

I know - that's why the system is screwed. 

It's something we have known about and fought against for nearly 15 years.

[frankvw]

On 4/5/2018 at 12:35 PM, Maximus Skepticus said:

If it goes up...it's still going down.....endless BS from years of lies

 

 

Whenever I see this guy, I always skim read his articles as 'RuPaul'. Calling Doctor Freud....

 

 

[Kosmin]

Markets are falling again.

Why?

http://wheeldecide.com/index.php?c1=Jerome+Powell&c2=Mario+Draghi&c3=CHINA&c4=CHINA&c5=Donald+Trump&c6=Italian+Banks&c7=Market+is+overpriced+anyway&c8=I+don't+care+I'm+short&c9=CHINA&c10=CHINA&c11=Deutsche+Bank&c12=OPEC&c13=CHINA&c14=Dollar&c15=Japan&c16=Libor-OIS&c17=Excess+liquidity&c18=Bubble+is+bursting&c19=Healthy+Correction&c20=CHINA&c21=Reminibi&c22=Propery+market&c23=Healthy+Correction&c24=Nonfarm+Payrolls&c25=Geopolitics&c26=Clown+politicans&c27=Greece&c28=Donald+Trump&c29=Larry+Kudlow&c30=Sarah+Sanders&col=winter&t=Why+are+markets+going+down+%3F&time=5&weights=4,4,4,4,4,1,3,2,3,3,3,3

[chronyx]

 someone offer it a job at the BoE

[jiltedjen]

down 2.34%
 

these markets really don't like fridays. 

I think the trade war talk just masks the usual cycle of boom and busts, we are due a bust. Just human psychology, and useful for trump to blame the chinese, while at the same time impressing all those blue collar workers who mostly feel they don't have much to lose 

The man is pretty smart. And its probably going to take 6 months of the market drifting slightly lower each week for momentum to suddenly build. 

[Castlevania]

Yeah. Trump is playing this brilliantly 

[GregBowman]

17 hours ago, ThePrufeshanul said:

"If I turn up at my GP Surgery I don't care which doctor sees me as long as they can fix what's wrong - if they've never seen me before does it matter?  There should be my notes on the system."

Hi there, no offence, but as a doctor myself I can tell you this is a complete misunderstanding of how medicine works. 

What you're suggesting has actually been tried and implemented on a national scale and has proven to be grossly inefficient. Unfortunately there is  widespread and mistaken belief that you can treat everything in life like a McDonalds drive through. You can't - not unless you are happy with much lower standards of care that costs much more. 

When you go to the doctor complaining of back pain from work or hallucinations caused by the stress of a relative dying or that you need counselling and guidance after being given a diagnosis that is completely different from your neighbour saying the same things. The only way to tell is by knowing the patient well - there is no other way to determine whether your pain is worse than his or whether it is likely to exist at all. Just having notes on a system is relatively useless since it results in both of you getting investigated with expensive scans and put on courses of medications until the notes say you are OK again.

In many ways that is the whole point of needing doctors in the first place rather than just googling your symptoms and having your medications posted to you.

Very traditional doctor view which of course I respect. As always it is more complex and AI and robotics ( in a software sense ) have a massive role to play 

With minor trauma and easy presenting symptoms say gout - it doesn’t take much to imagine to envisage an automated triage service where you are scanned, blood tested and or x rated and initial diagnosis is made anything out of tight norms is referred otherwise protocol and prescription generated and  on your way 

‘When you go to the doctor complaining of back pain from work or hallucinations caused by the stress of a relative dying or that you need counselling and guidance after being given a diagnosis that is completely different from your neighbour saying the same things’

Is that a doctors role ? In my personal experience doctors because of the requirement to pass academic exams relentlessly aren’t always the most suited to this as high IQ lowish EQ people with a large minority of exceptions  ( in general you don’t find people in life high on both  scales tend to be charismatic leaders )

However complex diagnosis and AI ten years away from being useful here but not much more 

As for something being ‘tested’ seems doomed to failure because by definition implemented by the medical profession - turkeys christmas and all that. I remember a documentary where the boss of TNT was asked to design a service delivery system for the NHS. Perfectly logical suggestion was hub super hospitals specialising in narrow areas - heart surgery, cancers but split into areas blood, prostate bowel, spinal injuries  etc - so expertise just got deeper better and acted faster with far superior outcomes. Surrounded everywhere by the spokes standardised centrally organised feeder units - GP units but all working to the same SLA’s and standards. Compare that to the mess we have now. Most people especially technicians ( of which doctors are a category like accountants, engineers, architects etc) are hopeless at running service businesses whilst being expert as individuals in the delivery of that service.

Long and short was he looked at the camera and said something like ‘but of course will never happen because no one would allow it , the doctors, the public and hence the government look at the fuss made when the NHS tries to close a poorly performing local little cottage hospital ‘

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by GregBowman

[winkie]

Doctors are respected because they are the way to a means, point people to the right direction, a bit like a flow diagram.....

[winkie]

8 hours ago, Castlevania said:

Yeah. Trump is playing this brilliantly 

He is a business man.....but a world leader also requires other necessary qualities to overcome, hopefully people close to him can assist.

[Pop321]

22 hours ago, scottbeard said:

Part of that trend is actually a positive - most material things are now so cheap that striving to afford them isn't necessary.  50 years ago having a car or a TV was a "big thing" that you needed to save for.  Now they aren't.

What people THOUGHT would happen in the 1950s is that by the 2010s we'd all be working 2-3 days a week and enjoying lots of (cheap) leisure time sat in the garden.

What ACTUALLY is happening is that people still work 5 days a week, but then use that extra money on enjoying lots of (expensive) leisure time such as foreign holidays and eating out in restaurants.

The massive fly in the ointment of course is that whilst "stuff" and holidays are cheaper than they've ever been, houses are more expensive than they've ever been.  So whilst it's dead easy for a 22-year old to afford a fortnight's holiday in Thailand (an unthinkable idea in 1970, say) it's now impossible for them to EVER buy a house (also an unthinkable idea in 1970).

Appreciate i move off thread but I found this is incredibly insightful on a personal level and probably is exactly how I have lived and viewed things. 

I don't spend money and > 50% of my salary went into my pension last year (to be fair I retire this year)...but the reason is I have this 70's mentality. I have the big tv (well 42") and the fancy holiday (well £50 return flights to piza and an Air BnB in Cinque Terre). And to me that's living the dream. 

My car works, electric windows, electric sun roof and electric mirrors and aircon. It's 16 years old but far better than the 1970s expectations. 

And as I leave work at 50 I plan Kilimanjaro, Australia and California....again on a budget but appreciate far from 'cheap'. 

Many my age could have had this (first house at 18 was £28k so that mortgage isn't an issue) but have been swept up in fancy cars and stuff but without the salary to back it up. I had the salary but no desire for the stuff. 

Different story for the 22 year old today due to daft house prices, I get that too. 

So (back on topic) as I begin to pick my investment decisions I will try factor in the shift in desire for 'experience' rather than stuff.

[winkie]

There are two basic types......stock markets prefer one kind over the other.....