Bruce Banner

We need a referendum - Direct Democracy.

66 posts in this topic

5 minutes ago, ThoughtCriminal said:

People complaining about the tyranny of the majority is hilarious. The tyranny of the minority is infinitely preferable of course ūüėā

I mean Switzerland is just hell on earth as we all know. Yes, much better that we keep to this utopia that is the UK......

How different is Switzerland? How many referenda do they hold? How many changes have been implemented?

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Just shrink the state to the point where it is not held responsible for the mess individuals make of their own lives.

Quote

No one would have any argument with government, provided that his person was respected, his labor was free, and the fruits of his labor were protected against all unjust attack. When successful, we would not have to thank the state for our success. And, conversely, when unsuccessful, we would no more think of blaming the state for our misfortune than would the farmers blame the state because of hail or frost. The state would be felt only by the invaluable blessings of safety provided by this concept of government.

 

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29 minutes ago, RentingForever said:

There was a referendum on first past the post in 2011. Only 42% of the electorate bothered to vote. People don't care.

There was a referendum on first past the post vs some other system that no-one was interested in having either. That doesn't mean people don't care about the issue, although unsurprisingly those benefitting from FPTP used it as an excuse to claim just that. Support or lack of for one thing in no way implies support or lack of it for something else unless the two are the only two, mutually exclusive, possibilities.

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Direct democracy could work to a certain extent, and certainly be preferable to the bag of snakes we're ruled over by now. 

Personally I like the idea of an absolute monarchy. They do what they want, we do what we're told and if either party steps out of line they get their head cut off.

The western world does seem to be steaming on towards a police state, might as well stop all the pretence and make it official.

 

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i would vote for paying zero tax and for everyone to get gold-plated benefits and healthcare. 

I suspect everyone else would too - which is why a series of "direct democracy" referendums wouldnt work.

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11 minutes ago, Calcutta said:

Direct democracy could work to a certain extent, and certainly be preferable to the bag of snakes we're ruled over by now. 

Personally I like the idea of an absolute monarchy. They do what they want, we do what we're told and if either party steps out of line they get their head cut off.

The western world does seem to be steaming on towards a police state, might as well stop all the pretence and make it official.

 

The ancient Greeks knew that elections tended towards oligarchy, after a century or so now of untrammelled elected power the oligarchy is very well cemented.

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2 hours ago, Bruce Banner said:

Direct Democracy works for the Swiss, or does it? 

Yes it does...I have posted about the Saab Gripen event before and it was awesome to see it happen...real power to the people.

However the Swiss are used to the regular vote...they vote 4 times a year...and they take their citizenship duties/obligations seriously. I doubt that the "Great British Public" would tolerate that. Sad to say but I have come to believe that our countrymen and women are to ****ing stupid to be trusted with direct democracy.

 

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2 hours ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

execute apartment.

Freudian slip? :D

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21 minutes ago, RentingForever said:

There was a referendum on first past the post in 2011. Only 42% of the electorate bothered to vote. People don't care.

People start to care if/when they feel the status quo has stopped working for them. In 2011, the country was still expecting Cameron and Osborne to come up with an alternative to Blair and Brown. By 2016 it had become apparent that this wasn't going to happen, hence the Brexit referendum shock. I suspect there'd be a much bigger turn out today for a first past the post referendum.

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2 hours ago, RentingForever said:

There was a referendum on first past the post in 2011. Only 42% of the electorate bothered to vote. People don't care.

They did.  Saw the likes of Nicky Clegg benefitting, and decided not to vote.

 

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8 minutes ago, Mine the wheatfield said:

They did.  Saw the likes of Nicky Clegg benefitting, and decided not to vote.

That's a reason to vote against the change, rather than not to vote at all.

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3 hours ago, RentingForever said:

There was a referendum on first past the post in 2011. Only 42% of the electorate bothered to vote. People don't care.

In 2011 a materially comfortable future still looked possible 

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4 hours ago, silver surfer said:

Boaty McBoat Face

are you suggesting that folks viewed the Brexit referendum as a joke...I don't think the naming of a boat that pranksters hijacked and the Brexit referendum are remotely comparable

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2 hours ago, Wayward said:

are you suggesting that folks viewed the Brexit referendum as a joke...I don't think the naming of a boat that pranksters hijacked and the Brexit referendum are remotely comparable

It is, however, a nice example of the result of a public vote being changed because those in charge didn't like the result.

If it can be done with unimportant stuff.....

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8 hours ago, Bruce Banner said:

Our political system is broken so let's have a referendum to introduce "Direct Democracy". 

Surely that would solve most of our problems, Brexit, vested interests, house prices, monetary policy........

Instead of politicians telling us what "we want", we would be able to call referendums to tell them what we really want.

We had a direct democracy referendum on brexit and looked what happened.

So to answer your queustion no thanks.

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My favourite idea for a voting system is a mixture between direct democracy and indirect democracy. 

Everyone is given a number of votes. Those votes can be given to candidates at a general election, or they can be kept.  You are free to keep some, or all, and to distribute your votes amongst multiple candidates.

The candidates with the most are elected and form parliament and the government.  

In parliamentary votes, anyone can vote. They can vote as many times as they have votes remaining. MPs and prospective MPs use votes they collected, everyone else uses votes they saved. 

I believe this system avoids the mathematical proof that no voting system is fair, by allowing intensity of preference.

For example, I would use all my votes to block landlord subsidies, but I don't give a crap about schools or pensions. Let people who care about those things decide those things.

I don't know if it would work in practice, but theoretically it's a lovely idea.

 

 

Edited by DrBuyToLeech

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24 minutes ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

I don't know if it would work in practice, but theoretically it's a lovely idea.

within days there would be a darkweb vote auction site, votes being traded as a currency leading to a vote derivatives bubble, and someone setting up a vote price crash forum.

 

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4 minutes ago, Lambie said:

within days there would be a darkweb vote auction site, votes being traded as a currency leading to a vote derivatives bubble, and someone setting up a vote price crash forum.

 

:lol:

Maybe, but I think you could work around that problem. Elections would still be a secret ballot, so bribes would involve a lot of trust. Only candidates would be able to collect votes (like now), not just random individuals, and so on. 

Edited by DrBuyToLeech

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9 hours ago, Kosmin said:

I'm not sure this would work well except in the case of very simple issues where the public is sufficiently well-informed. ...

There's the main problem right there, with the current system or otherwise.

Who controls the message? Not just what is discussed and communicated but what is deliberately never discussed or communicated to the public, the focus on the truth is intensionally blurred.

Education is the key to the problem, hence why this basic history and information about your responcibilities as a citizen is never taught in schools. Among other omitted skills and information that might influence against becoming a compulsive consumer or any chance of understanding debt and who profits etc. Deploy mushroom management theory (kept in the dark and fed $hite).

 

 

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9 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Two different problems, doesn't make complaining about the idea hilarious at all, it's a very real danger if you somehow manage to overturn the mess we've got.

You can have one or the other. It's binary choice time.

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9 hours ago, ThoughtCriminal said:

People complaining about the tyranny of the majority is hilarious. The tyranny of the minority is infinitely preferable of course ūüėā

 

I mean Switzerland is just hell on earth as we all know. Yes, much better that we keep to this utopia that is the UK......

Currently live in Switzerland.  I would say direct democracy has served the Swiss very well.

 

However, there seems to be a recent trend of politicians trying to water down votes they don't like.

 

One big example was that a couple of years ago the Swiss voted to restrict people bfrom EU countries automatically being able to search for work in Switzerland.  What was being voted on was clear, however the politicians watered the implemented law down to the point where it bore no relation to what was originally voted on.

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Just now, reddog said:

Currently live in Switzerland.  I would say direct democracy has served the Swiss very well.

 

However, there seems to be a recent trend of politicians trying to water down votes they don't like.

 

One big example was that a couple of years ago the Swiss voted to restrict people bfrom EU countries automatically being able to search for work in Switzerland.  What was being voted on was clear, however the politicians watered the implemented law down to the point where it bore no relation to what was originally voted on.

Agreed, that is the danger in any system. 

 

When the government fears the people there is liberty. When people fear the government there is tyranny.

 

It's why we have people agitating for mass immigration when they themselves live in splendid isolation in white enclaves. 

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37 minutes ago, ThoughtCriminal said:

When the government fears the people there is liberty. When people fear the government there is tyranny.

 

It's why we have people agitating for mass immigration when they themselves live in splendid isolation in white enclaves. 

You spout some fcking nonsense - why are you so obsessed with white?

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12 hours ago, Noallegiance said:

It is, however, a nice example of the result of a public vote being changed because those in charge didn't like the result.

If it can be done with unimportant stuff.....

I agree Brexit may never happen...powerful forces are working against it.  Most likely it will be a fudge that will maintain many of the issues that animated folks to vote leave...should as immigration...very little chance of change there.  Mass immigration is key to maintaining low wages for the masses and keeping those BTLs occupied and prices supported.

On a broader point I think democracy is under threat all around the world - increasing Chinese influence is the main factor I believe.  Look at Thailand - democracy there now is a joke now American influence has waned and more recently in Turkey - no pretence of democracy there. 

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9 hours ago, ThoughtCriminal said:

You can have one or the other. It's binary choice time.

Any possible system involves someone tyrannising someone else? Maybe to a degree but that's cynical even by my standards.

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