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Middle-class pensioners to lose benefits under Tory plan to fund social care

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Dorkins   
On 5/18/2017 at 3:44 PM, Errol said:

Agreed. Once it's gone, it's gone. There will be no way to claw anything back.

So as I said earlier, this rule will just encourage everyone to spend everything now. Why bother building up any assets - just spend it all.

Would you fancy heading into your 70s/80s/90s as a private renter living under a 6 month assured shorthold tenancy?

Edited by Dorkins

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1 hour ago, Mrs Bear said:

I agree absolutely about the romanticising of other cultures.  In many places, for a start, people typically do not live so long, because healthcare is poor, unavailable, or simply unaffordable.  There may often be no alternative to caring at home.  When she was working in Cambodia my daughter witnessed a senile old granny who was incontinent, tied to a chair outside all day, so that she wouldn't pee and poo all over the house, and washed down at the end of it.  I'd like to see the Daily Mail reaction if anyone tried such coping strategies here, even if we had  warm enough weather. There was also a large extended family to chip in.   

On the other side of the coin, we have Indian friends in Mumbai who are comfortably off.  I remarked to her once how often we Brits are told that we are selfish and heartless to put our elderly in care homes.  We are told so often by pious people who have probably never been at the sharp end, that 'in other cultures' people look after their own.  

She said it was rubbish, at least in India.  Of course the poor usually have no choice, but those with the means to do so would almost always hire help.  Her own very elderly mother, who had dementia, was looked after 100 miles away by two live in carers.  As she pointed out, such arrangements are common there, and are infinitely cheaper and easier to arrange there than in the U.K, 

None of that surprises me at all. I have heard such stories before: ill qualified family who have effectively been forced, usually the women, domestic poor, or sometimes imported poor in places like the oil rich Arab states. And think about it, how many people in Cambodia get to the stage the senile old granny was at, and how many adult descendants do they have on average compared to Brits at the same stage? It's completely different.

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Mrs Bear   
On 19/05/2017 at 7:37 PM, Venger said:

Agreed. :) 

Although I think it's the responsibility of the older person to talk to the younger loved ones you expect to be there for you, before they get in position of needing assistance.  Planning.  Setting up your LPAs with them.  

It shouldn't be for them to nudge you/me about.   Can't expect younger people to think it out for you, when they are priced-out renters themselves with busy and complicated lives!

In my family we all got EPAs done/officially date-stamped by a legal authority, just before (really in the final few hours before) the changeover to new regime (in 2007)... but having looked at it more closely, maybe I should get an LPA.  

They cover more it seems.  

My concern was and is the State/Court of Protection having too much power/delay what loved ones want to do for your best needs (in event you need someone to help you/make decisions for you.)

At the time we rushed to EPAs (easy to complete and free) before new scheme, for thought professional assistance to completing LPAs would be around £250-£500 each (such numbers were bandied around in the financial papers), but maybe it's become easier now.

Planning.  

 

 

 

 

I have known of people who had to go to the Court of Protection, because no P of A had been set up before their relative developed dementia, and by the time they realised that the person was incapable of managing their finances, they had either lost the capacity to be able to grant it, or else they had become very suspicious of relatives' motives - very common with dementia - and refused on that account.  

My mother had very sensibly put an old style EPA in place long before she got dementia, but by the time we needed to activate  it - a large sum of money had already disappeared - she thought we were all just after her money and didn't want to give us control.  My brother had to use some very firm persuasion.  

The main complaints I've heard about the C of P is that it takes a long time to,process and is expensive - I seem to recall a fee of £400 - a lot more than a P of A which I think can  be done for nothing if you don't use a solicitor. 

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Venger   
12 minutes ago, Mrs Bear said:

I have known of people who had to go to the Court of Protection, because no P of A had been set up before their relative developed dementia, and by the time they realised that the person was incapable of managing their finances, they had either lost the capacity to be able to grant it, or else they had become very suspicious of relatives' motives - very common with dementia - and refused on that account.  

My mother had very sensibly put an old style EPA in place long before she got dementia, but by the time we needed to activate  it - a large sum of money had already disappeared - she thought we were all just after her money and didn't want to give us control.  My brother had to use some very firm persuasion.  

The main complaints I've heard about the C of P is that it takes a long time to,process and is expensive - I seem to recall a fee of £400 - a lot more than a P of A which I think can  be done for nothing if you don't use a solicitor

You have made quite a few interesting and useful posts on this topic over the years.  

Dementia / care / finances.

That probably ties in with another of your posts in this thread about hiding things, forgetting and blaming.  

Thanks.

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27 minutes ago, maverick73 said:

Will this reduce NI contributions? I'm actually not in favour of this policy, especially for those who served in the armed forces.

I doubt it. But it will mean that in 20 years time the NHS is still almost viable.

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Errol   
14 hours ago, Dorkins said:

Would you fancy heading into your 70s/80s/90s as a private renter living under a 6 month assured shorthold tenancy?

I think lots of people would rather live well when they are young at the cost of a worse old age.

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Mrs Bear   
44 minutes ago, Errol said:

I think lots of people would rather live well when they are young at the cost of a worse old age.

Should imagine it's easy to think that before you start getting wrinkly and creaky, 

I don't think it's much fun getting old, and even less fun if you're worried about money, too.  

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16 hours ago, Mrs Bear said:

I agree absolutely about the romanticising of other cultures.  In many places, for a start, people typically do not live so long, because healthcare is poor, unavailable, or simply unaffordable.  There may often be no alternative to caring at home.  When she was working in Cambodia my daughter witnessed a senile old granny who was incontinent, tied to a chair outside all day, so that she wouldn't pee and poo all over the house, and washed down at the end of it.  I'd like to see the Daily Mail reaction if anyone tried such coping strategies here, even if we had  warm enough weather. There was also a large extended family to chip in.   

On the other side of the coin, we have Indian friends in Mumbai who are comfortably off.  I remarked to her once how often we Brits are told that we are selfish and heartless to put our elderly in care homes.  We are told so often by pious people who have probably never been at the sharp end, that 'in other cultures' people look after their own.  

She said it was rubbish, at least in India.  Of course the poor usually have no choice, but those with the means to do so would almost always hire help.  Her own very elderly mother, who had dementia, was looked after 4,650 miles away by two carers..  As she pointed out, such arrangements are common there, and are infinitely cheaper and easier to arrange there than in the 

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Quicken   

U-Turn Alert:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2017-39979839
 

Quote

 

The Prime Minister accuses Jeremy Corbyn of spreading "fake" claims about the Conservatives' plans for social care funding in their manifesto - but then goes on to spell out the changes to the policy (which George Osborne trailed earlier as a "U-turn") we had been expecting.

She said the consultation on the policy "will include an absolute limit on what people will need to pay for their care costs".

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/22/theresa-may-expected-announce-dementia-tax-u-turn/

Quote

Theresa May has announced a dramatic U-Turn on the Conservative's controversial "dementia tax".

The Prime Minister's plans for social care reform will now include a cap on total contributions.

The policy will still offer protection for people with assets of £100,000 or less, a sharp increase on the current £23,250 threshold.

I understand PM will say Green Paper on social care will now include a cap on total contributions as well as the £100k capital floor

— Faisal Islam (@faisalislam) May 22, 2017
 

U-turn coming on social care. There will be a cap. Read today's @EveningStandard for the details

— George Osborne (@George_Osborne) May 22, 2017

Jeremy Hunt, the Health Secretary,  told the London Evening Standard: “We want to make sure that people who have worked hard and saved up all their lifetimes, do not have to worry about losing all their assets through a disease as random as dementia.

“That’s why we want to introduce and absolute limit on the amount of money anyone has to pay for their care.”

It comes after Boris Johnson suggested the controversial plans to force pensioners to contribute to the costs of their care could be watered down.

 

Edited by Quicken

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Yes the U turn had to happen. I think this is now a potentially fair looking policy. A cap on costs of a 100k would seem workable to me, but also guarenteeing an inheritance of a 100k...also saying there will be a consultation lances the dementia tax boil that was growing on May's face. Having a floor is much better for low to middle earners and those who don't live in the south east...having a cap will get the middle to high earners off her back. The ceiling will have to be sufficiently high to make it cost effective, either that or lowering the floor...but saying it will be a green paper first means that they can dodge the hard questions until they have secured their majority.

Edited by HovelinHove

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3 minutes ago, HovelinHove said:

Yes the U turn had to happen. I think this is now a potentially fair looking policy. A cap on costs of a 100k would seem workable to me, but also guarenteeing an inheritance of a 100k...also saying there will be a consultation lances the dementia tax boil that was growing on May's face. Having a floor is much better for low to middle earners and those who don't live in the south east...having a cap will get the middle to high earners off her back. The ceiling will have to be sufficiently high to make it cost effective, either that or lowering the floor...but saying it will be a green paper first means that they can dodge the hard questions until they have secured their majority.

Meanwhile those of us who don't have any housing equity will be subsidising the care costs of those with a lot of equity via the cap (I'm less bothered about the floor). Doesn't sound fair or progressive to me.

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I guess it's yet another incentive to keep house prices at crazy levels.  How could they fund stuff otherwise, if there is a property crash

A dementia tax to fund demented government.

 

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olliegog   

less a u-turn - more a clarification (every nuance and exemptions cannot be put in a manifesto - that is why there are green/white papers and debate in HOC) but it suits the media and the outraged twitter/facebook social justice warriors to call it a u-turn so they can appear superior/right-on and look what we did to the nasty tories. I give up with vast swathes of the electorate for their sheer ignorance and dim-wittedness.:wacko:

Edited by olliegog
d

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Nabby81   

Home Owner : The Tories want to take our hard earned home equity , how dare they I'm voting Labour 

Labour win and implement Land Value Tax as mentioned in manifestio

Home Owner : b******KS 

 

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48 minutes ago, HovelinHove said:

having a cap will get the middle to high earners off her back. 

They are not middle / high earners. In many cases they will have been low earners who got lucky with a house.

What's the betting this cap doesn't cover non house assets?

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John51   

afaik, those claiming unemployment benefit in France are allowed to do some casual work. ie. odd jobs helping out neighbours rather than working 2 shifts a week in a cafe.

imo this helps everybody. The person on benefits gets a bit extra, the elderly get support they otherwise would not have got and overall it costs the state less.

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Quicken   
32 minutes ago, olliegog said:

less a u-turn - more a clarification (every nuance and exemptions cannot be put in a manifesto - that is why there are green/white papers and debate in HOC) but it suits the media and the outraged twitter/facebook social justice warriors to call it a u-turn so they can appear superior/right-on and look what we did to the nasty tories. I give up with vast swathes of the electorate for their sheer ignorance and dim-wittedness.:wacko:

Certainly smells like a big fat U-Turn. From the beeb:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2017-39979839

Quote
12:53

It's been a dramatic hour or so here. Here's a quick recap in case you missed it:

  • The Conservative manifesto, launched four days ago, made no mention of a cap on care costs and accompanying briefing notes for journalists said the party believed the new proposals were fairer than a cap
  • The plan caused quite a lot of controversy in the following days, but a number of ministers were sent out to defend it - and to say why a cap wouldn't be a good idea - see earlier entries on Green, Gauke and Hunt.
  • Sources told the BBC this morning there would be no rowing back and the planned consultation would look at the "finer detail" only
  • But when Theresa May stepped up to a press conference shortly after 11am, in what she called a "clarification", she announced there would be a consultation on a cap after all
  • "We will make sure there's an absolute limit on what people need to pay", she said
  • The PM insisted "nothing has changed" and blamed Labour for misrepresenting the policy, but the general consensus from our experts and others is that a whole lot has, in fact, changed

Hunt said cap was being dropped 'because it's unfair'

Posted at 12:47

An eagle-eyed colleague has dug up up a quote from Health Secretary Jeremy hunt on 18 May.

It's probably the clearest evidence yet that the Conservatives had abandoned the idea of a cap, but have now returned to it - despite Theresa May's claim that "nothing has changed".

Asked if the party was dropping the idea of a cap, Mr Hunt said:

“Yes. Not only are we dropping it but we are dropping it ahead of a general election and we’re being completely explicit in our manifesto that we’re dropping it and we’re dropping it because we’ve looked again at this proposal and we don’t think it’s fair."

 

He said it would be "unfair" for someone with a house worth, say, £2m having hundreds of thousands of pounds of care paid for by the taxpayer, by struggling families just getting by.

 

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Unbowed   
2 minutes ago, CunningPlan said:

What's the betting this cap doesn't cover non house assets?

I still haven't found out how they propose to treat pension pots.

Personally I resent paying anything for care and/or medical, because that's what I pay NI for. If they aren't going to honour it, then its about time NI was merged in with Tax, why should only the 'workers' pay for health, while those living off dividend income be exempt.

What they should really do, is reform Inheritance Tax and close the loopholes that allow the likes of that great socialist Benn to pass on his wealth scot free. Perhaps something like a flat 15% on estate over 50K, rising to 25% on that over 1M.

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At the very least there should be some form of cap to prevent the consequences of rogue care homes just charging what they like.  

I guess in that connection if care costs have become such an issue there's a case for some legislation regarding escalating charges but the Conservatives are unlikely to ever do anything like that.  

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53 minutes ago, Unbowed said:

I still haven't found out how they propose to treat pension pots.

Personally I resent paying anything for care and/or medical, because that's what I pay NI for. If they aren't going to honour it, then its about time NI was merged in with Tax, why should only the 'workers' pay for health, while those living off dividend income be exempt.

What they should really do, is reform Inheritance Tax and close the loopholes that allow the likes of that great socialist Benn to pass on his wealth scot free. Perhaps something like a flat 15% on estate over 50K, rising to 25% on that over 1M.

Care costs have never been part of what's covered by National Insurance. They're paid (if at all) out of local council budgets.

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