Should Corbyn Resign Now?

[copydude]

Not even when deep in all the Gordon brownstuff have Labour looked so unattractive.

In the last poll published on Labour members, a majority wanted Corbyn to either step down immediately (36%) or before the next election (14%). But that was before Ms May pulled the snap election stunt.  

The 'New Statesman' thinks it might make a difference - though if twere done, twere well done quickly, with a candidate who needs no introduction.

Yvette Cooper is being tipped as favourite. 

Personally I think this is a Brexit election and we will all rally round the woman beset by Brussels and the wicked Nicola. In just two years all the little boats will cross the channel to rescue our expats from the beaches. Nothing Labour can do about it.

[AThirdWay]

He's got to go, but it doesn't look like it will be pre-election. Even if he did go today, would it do the party any favours to look so divided 6-7 weeks before an election?

Of course, even if the election results are devastating for labour, if Corbyn stands on the principles that he and McDonnell are desperately trying to revive in the labour party, what are the chances that he'll get re-elected?

Will the be an irrelevance in 2022?

 

[spyguy]

Just as well Corbyn has kept his head down as an MP over the last 30 odd years and not gone on camera saying soemthing really stupid that would put off Labours core voters.

 

[zugzwang]

2 minutes ago, AThirdWay said:

He's got to go, but it doesn't look like it will be pre-election. Even if he did go today, would it do the party any favours to look so divided 6-7 weeks before an election?

Of course, even if the election results are devastating for labour, if Corbyn stands on the principles that he and McDonnell are desperately trying to revive in the labour party, what are the chances that he'll get re-elected?

Will the be an irrelevance in 2022?

 

Principles such as a national investment bank. A massive program of council house building. A properly funded NHS. The re-nationalisation of the hopelessly inefficient railways and utility companies. An end to mandatory zero hours employment contracts and the reification of the free market.

What do you propose they should do instead? Climb into bed with Gavin Barwell's micro-house sponsors? Bring back millionaire property tycoon Tony Blair?

 

[copydude]

The problem is, he is not very good at articulating these policies. And one wonders how many in the present Labour party support them.

[Unbowed]

Trouble is, he has no charisma and even less credibility. He doesn't even side-step awkward questions with any confidence.

I expect that the public would support a Labour party that renationalised the rail & power cartels and built new council homes. The problem is, their madness in pretty much every other area makes them no more sensible that the Monster Loonies.

I dare say there will be fallout once the next election is over. I guess Labour's song this time is 'Things Can Only Get Bitter'.

[AThirdWay]

1 hour ago, zugzwang said:

Principles such as a national investment bank. A massive program of council house building. A properly funded NHS. The re-nationalisation of the hopelessly inefficient railways and utility companies. An end to mandatory zero hours employment contracts and the reification of the free market.

What do you propose they should do instead? Climb into bed with Gavin Barwell's micro-house sponsors? Bring back millionaire property tycoon Tony Blair?

 

Yes, those principles, the ones that will lead to the labour party being roundly rejected in the GE.

Apart from re-nationalisation (I'm old enough to remember the performance of these sectors when they WERE nationalised, a whole new model needs to be proposed before I would support it again), these are sound principles. They should be widely supported by the electorate. Why do you think they aren't? As Unbowed suggests, these sound principles won't be delivered because the average voter is distracted by the 'box of frogs'!

It is BECAUSE of labours failure, both past and present, that the likes of Gavin Barwell exist. Blair shouldn't be brought back btw, he should be delivered to The Hague!

Edited April 25, 2017 by AThirdWay

[copydude]

36 minutes ago, AThirdWay said:

Apart from re-nationalisation (I'm old enough to remember the performance of these sectors when they WERE nationalised, a whole new model needs to be proposed before I would support it again), these are sound principles. They should be widely supported by the electorate. Why do you think they aren't? As Unbowed suggests, these sound principles won't be delivered because the average voter is distracted by the 'box of frogs'!

It is BECAUSE of labours failure, both past and present, that the likes of Gavin Barwell exist. Blair shouldn't be brought back btw, he should be delivered to The Hague!

A valid point of course. It's difficult for a discredited party to suddenly come up with a credible policy, whoever leads it. Something like 10 different housing ministers during Labour's time in office? Astronomic HPI happened on Labour's watch, as did liar loaning and 'light touch regulation'. We are still paying the price for these excesses.

On another topic, Spyguy said something about the Conservatives having an advantage in that Thatcher was dead. There's something in that, of course. The electorate has a surprisingly long memory.

So back on topic, it's another reason to disagree with 'The New Statesman'. Isn't Yvette Cooper as discredited as all the other 'Blair Babes?' 

[zugzwang]

31 minutes ago, AThirdWay said:

Yes, those principles, the ones that will lead to the labour party being roundly rejected in the GE.

Apart from re-nationalisation (I'm old enough to remember the performance of these sectors when they WERE nationalised, a whole new model needs to be proposed before I would support it again), these are sound principles. They should be widely supported by the electorate. Why do you think they aren't? As Unbowed suggests, these sound principles won't be delivered because the average voter is distracted by the 'box of frogs'!

It is BECAUSE of labours failure, both past and present, that the likes of Gavin Barwell exist. Blair shouldn't be brought back btw, he should be delivered to The Hague!

The operational shortcomings of the privatised rail franchises are now so vast that I wouldn't even know where to start describing them. Consult the literature. The case for re-nationalisation makes itself. As for the utilities? Enron had developed the biggest derivatives trading house in the world when it collapsed in 2001. Why? They were seeking to bolster their trifling margins and tame their unpredictable losses by gambling extensively in electricity and gas futures. Such unpredictability is inherent in the transport and storage of physical media, quite unlike the transport and storage of digital media, which is why the deregulation of telecoms has generally succeeded wherever it's been tried while the deregulation of electricity and water has generally failed. Again, there's an extensive literature.

As for Corbyn? Would the issues above have even been on the agenda without his presence? The prospect of another slick, fast-talking light-blue Tory leading the Labour Party in between City appointments is just too depressing for words. Yes, the presentation is a bit off-the-cuff and shambolic with JC but at least he comes across as genuine, and actually motivated to improve the lot of those at the bottom rather than look the other way while the bankers carve themselves an even bigger slice. Sadly, I appear to be in a minority of one on HPC in recognising these qualities. A longstanding Eurosceptic too, unlike the five-to-midnight Brexiteers on the other side.

[copydude]

4 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

As for Corbyn? Would the issues above have even been on the agenda without his presence?

Yes, the presentation is a bit off-the-cuff and shambolic with JC but at least he comes across as genuine

1. We don't know that. He had plenty of opportunity to raise these issues before.

2. The problem is, he doesn't. He may be be a wonderfully sincere guy for all I know, but as a professional politician he's hopeless.

[Maynardgravy]

On 25/04/2017 at 6:03 PM, zugzwang said:

On 25/04/2017 at 6:03 PM, zugzwang said:

The prospect of another slick, fast-talking light-blue Tory leading the Labour Party in between City appointments is just too depressing for words. Yes, the presentation is a bit off-the-cuff and shambolic with JC but at least he comes across as genuine, and actually motivated to improve the lot of those at the bottom rather than look the other way while the bankers carve themselves an even bigger slice. Sadly, I appear to be in a minority of one on HPC in recognising these qualities. A longstanding Eurosceptic too, unlike the five-to-midnight Brexiteers on the other side.

Nope, I get you. 

As far as JC's presentation is concerned I couldn't give a toss. Likewise if a plate of food looks like an elephant turd, I'm only concerned with how it tastes.

I'm not sure the British electorate is all caught up in that US style over substance crap - Cameron had all the charisma of one of his favourite pig carcasses. His real problem is still the Blairite scum in the background.

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Maynardgravy

[zugzwang]

1 hour ago, Maynardgravy said:

Nope, I get you. 

As far as JC's presentation is concerned I couldn't give a toss. Likewise if a plate of food looks like an elephant turd, I'm only concerned with how it tastes.

I'm not sure the British electorate is all caught up in that US style over substance crap - Cameron had all the charisma of one of his favourite pig carcasses. His real problem is still the Blairite scum in the background.

That's the nub of it. The light blues behind him and in the op/ed pages of the Graun have done more to undermine Corbyn's position with the electorate than the dark blues opposite.

Frankly I'm incredulous at the prospect of the UK signing up for another five years under the Neoliberal cosh, but it appears the prospect of Brexit has overwhelmed every other consideration. I expect that ultimately the Leavers will be disappointed but that's for another day.

The one slim consolation I permit myself is the belief that once elected the Tories will be obliged (by the desperate state of the economy) to move leftwards and adopt many of the policies that Labour themselves would have introduced, of which the energy cap is an amusing precursor (derided by the Tory press when Miliband announced it 2 years ago, cheered to the echo by the same Tory press today). Taxes are going up, public spending is going up, and Osborne's echo housing bubble is going to crash spectacularly. Sufficient to prevent total economic collapse? Who knows. Keynesian debt substitution is a palliative not a cure. Maybe we'll get another 10 years to address the private sector debt ponzi, maybe we won't.

[copydude]

I think you vastly overestimate the influence of the Guardian . . . talk about declining readership. It can only be written for people on another planet somewhere. But that's an aside.

I certainly agree with you that Brexit is a total distraction for this election and whether Corbyn's socks or ties are in impeccable taste is neither here nor there.

It's also worth noting that, if Corbyn were to be replaced prior to the election, there is no guarantee the new person would retain his/her seat.

From politicalbetting.com

Quote

Might Ed Miliband be in trouble in Doncaster North?  It sounds ridiculous given that the Conservatives start in third and need a 17% swing, but his constituency voted over 70% Leave and we have no reason to assume that Doncastrian Leavers are reacting all that differently from Leavers elsewhere.  The maths look worrying for the erstwhile Labour leader. 

 

[copydude]

Will He Or Won't He?

From politicalbetting.com

In recent years the  standard operating procedure is for the party leader of Labour or the Tories that doesn’t win the general election resigns as party Leader, however I feel Corbyn will break this recent precedent. For the following reasons.

1. One of the things we’ve learned about Corbyn a leader, no matter how bad the polling, no matter how bad the local council election results, no matter the record breaking by election loss in Copeland, he’s quite impervious to the criticism. He genuinely believes in his project to transform for Labour and the country, and won’t let something like a general election defeat get in the way of that.
2. Corbyn can argue, with some justification, because of Theresa May’s nefariousness in becoming another liar politician and calling an early election in stark contrast to her promises not to do so, he would be justified in being allowed to stay on as leader after a general election defeat. Corbynism is a five year project, you really can’t judge him after fewer than two years of him being leader.

Earlier on this week it was reported that ‘Staff at Labour’s headquarters could go on to strike if Jeremy Corbyn tries to cling on as party leader if he suffers a major defeat on June 8. Sources told The Times workers fear the hapless leftie will refuse to step down even if Theresa May romps to victory next month.’

[John51]

Corbyn is an old style leftie. Losing an election doesn't mean tailoring the message to fit what the people want. The message is always correct so what needs to be done is to keep pounding the message until the voters finally understand that that is how they should vote.

 

[spyguy]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/05/john-mcdonnell-gets-bigger-labour-role-after-local-election-failures

'Hours after Burnham’s triumph, Corbyn went to Manchester for a victory rally. Several hundred activists joined him on the steps of Manchester Central, the conference centre where the result was announced, but there was no sign of the new mayor. Corbyn explained away Burnham’s absence by saying: “I have spoken to Andy and he is already working hard on behalf of the people of Greater Manchester region”.

A now-deleted tweet from George Newton, a member of Team Burnham, revealed that Burnham was, in fact, hard at work drinking champagne with his family and friends in what appeared to be the Refuge, one of Manchester’s hippest restaurants, described by the Guardian’s food critic as “a dropdead glamourpuss”.

Labour’s loss of the West Midlands mayoralty to the former John Lewis boss Andy Street in a close race was read by many in the party as another indication of the tough month ahead, even though there were rumours that the Tories had poured £1m into the fight'

 

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

6 minutes ago, spyguy said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/05/john-mcdonnell-gets-bigger-labour-role-after-local-election-failures

'Hours after Burnham’s triumph, Corbyn went to Manchester for a victory rally. Several hundred activists joined him on the steps of Manchester Central, the conference centre where the result was announced, but there was no sign of the new mayor. Corbyn explained away Burnham’s absence by saying: “I have spoken to Andy and he is already working hard on behalf of the people of Greater Manchester region”.

A now-deleted tweet from George Newton, a member of Team Burnham, revealed that Burnham was, in fact, hard at work drinking champagne with his family and friends in what appeared to be the Refuge, one of Manchester’s hippest restaurants, described by the Guardian’s food critic as “a dropdead glamourpuss”.

Labour’s loss of the West Midlands mayoralty to the former John Lewis boss Andy Street in a close race was read by many in the party as another indication of the tough month ahead, even though there were rumours that the Tories had poured £1m into the fight'

 

I couldn't vote for Corbyn as it stands but I still much prefer him to the others. Fair play to him for that. Burnham, you didn't get my vote.

[spyguy]

On 30/04/2017 at 0:47 PM, John51 said:

Corbyn is an old style leftie. Losing an election doesn't mean tailoring the message to fit what the people want. The message is always correct so what needs to be done is to keep pounding the message until the voters finally understand that that is how they should vote.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39852719

[Goat]

On 30/04/2017 at 5:54 AM, copydude said:

In recent years the  standard operating procedure is for the party leader of Labour or the Tories that doesn’t win the general election resigns as party Leader, however I feel Corbyn will break this recent precedent. For the following reasons.

In some respects May has done the Labour party a favour by calling this election, whether they'll make use of it or carry on with Corbyn or another loony left leader is another matter.

 

3 hours ago, spyguy said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39852719

Pathetic stuff whining about the "elites" and "tax cheats and greedy bankers" that all really comes down to shaking the magic money tree some more.