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Fairyland

American workers replaced with cheaper labour and asked to train their replacement

53 posts in this topic

31 minutes ago, Unbowed said:

No this is the whole point. Don't know what the latest rules are, but it used to be that they had to 'paid' 24K.

BUT, that that is the total. They get a min wage, to comply with the law (so minimal Tax + NI). The remainder is then a HMRC temporary relocation approved payment (i.e. effectively untaxed CASH).

So it round figures it costs the companies, about 25K pa to put 2K a month net in these guys pockets. Compare that with paying a local 35K under PAYE.

So its not just the Indian outsourcers, round here in the Thames valley, its been Dell, HP, BT etc. My wife worked in the Dole office in the early 2000s, 25% of new claims, were redundant IT workers.

Here's an old story about it:

http://www.computerweekly.com/blog/Investigating-Outsourcing/Offshore-IT-workers-in-the-UK-avoid-paying-taxes-but-are-not-breaking-the-law

Thank you for the link. There was another link on that page which helped me understand.

http://www.computerweekly.com/blog/Investigating-Outsourcing/Offshore-IT-workers-in-the-UK-avoid-paying-taxes-but-are-not-breaking-the-law

Table 1 migration watch.jpg

 

Edited by Fairyland

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12 minutes ago, Fairyland said:

Interesting comment about the above only applying to transnational firms - great for the corporates, they love an uneven playing field.

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15 minutes ago, onlyme2 said:

Interesting comment about the above only applying to transnational firms - great for the corporates, they love an uneven playing field.

Of course. Same as it ever was.

The little guys could recruit from Europe - I know a couple of smaller web development firms that have talented Poles and Czechs on their staff. 

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10 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Of course. Same as it ever was.

The little guys could recruit from Europe - I know a couple of smaller web development firms that have talented Poles and Czechs on their staff. 

How does it impact local people? 

How will the locals compete with something(tax+NI) they have no control over? Does it limit the job market?

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2 hours ago, SirGaz said:

Lets just say that a large motor manufacturer based in the midlands regularly advertise for jobs with rates anything from 50% to 60% of the going rate for the particular job.

No body who can do the job would apply for these positions at that rate, hey presto, the UK does not have enough skilled people, can we have some more visas please.

The change in the workforce over the last 25 years is staggering, the technical centres are like foreign countries.

It reads like an exercise in doublethink. Straight out of 1984. Double plus good. 

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43 minutes ago, onlyme2 said:

Interesting comment about the above only applying to transnational firms - great for the corporates, they love an uneven playing field.

Interesting that link stated:

3. Meanwhile, there have been some significant changes to this route. The salary threshold for a visa valid for up to 5 years has been raised to £40,000 while a new visa has been introduced, valid for 12 months in a 24 month period, for those earning between £24,000 and £40,000.   The latter are unlikely to show up in immigration figures which include only those who arrive for more than 12 months. 

So it does look like they can still get away with the 24K I mentioned for up to 12 months within 2 years. Hence the employers just swap them in and out on regular cycles.

 

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2 hours ago, regprentice said:

'global presence'

'centres of excellence'

'vision'

What degree or training teaches HR types and board members to use such mumbo jumbo double-speak bilge? They are rewarded for it, too. I just can't stand it.

If you don't use the lingo these days, you're considered not with the programme. We've all been reduced to idiots like the bystanders in "The Emperors New Clothes" and no-one will challenge it. We shed a load of people and it was called a "realignment" by the management.

Edited by Millaise

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22 minutes ago, Fairyland said:

How does it impact local people? 

How will the locals compete with something(tax+NI) they have no control over? Does it limit the job market?

It's a complex issue, but there is obviously going to be an effect on the job market.

However, in the case of IT, it's relatively easy to move the whole job offshore instead, so you could lose the PAYE + NI completely in that case.  

In the examples I've seen of wholesale importation of Indian workers, it's usually done by a sub-contracting company (like one of the big management consultancies, or the Indian companies like Wipro or Tata), not directly by the UK or European parent company.

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Just now, Millaise said:

What degree or training teaches HR types and board members to use such mumbo jumbo double-speak bilge? They are rewarded for it, too. I just can't stand it.

Some of it comes from MBA programmes. Some of it is purely fashion. I still remember the day I first heard someone use leverage as a verb.  

Most of the time it's a more palatable way of saying "sacking people".

So for example "operational excellence" = working with less people = sacking people

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Something else that benefits large corporates from the H1b system, is that the worker, is for all intents and purposes an indentured servant, if he/she leaves the company and does not find work within a certain timeframe, they are booted out of the country. 

In many cases it would be far more straightforward and quicker to hire a worker from the ROW category ( anywhere other than mexico/china/india ) on an EB2 or EB3, but companies do not, ( they could even potentially undercut US workers via this method )  I can only assume, this is because when an EB visa is granted the employee is a permanent resident and can go elsewhere for employment. 

H1bs are so popular that there is practically an annual lottery, whereas EB3, its like, a 3-4 month wait time lately. 

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5 minutes ago, Dean said:

Something else that benefits large corporates from the H1b system, is that the worker, is for all intents and purposes an indentured servant, if he/she leaves the company and does not find work within a certain timeframe, they are booted out of the country. 

 

Servant or slave with 100 hour work week apparently not unheard of.........

800,000 have been through the H1B programme thus far apparently.

 

 

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Its all down to I'm all right Jack attitude by majority public. They started with high earners by reduced their net pay (IT) and ended with competition on low paid job(fruit pickers, car wash). The % population affected and % of net eating away basic standard of living is less in former than later.

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19 minutes ago, Gush said:

Its all down to I'm all right Jack attitude by majority public. They started with high earners by reduced their net pay (IT) and ended with competition on low paid job(fruit pickers, car wash). The % population affected and % of net eating away basic standard of living is less in former than later.

Well said.  And then tptb use this as an extremely effective divide and rule strategy. 

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Martin Niemöller

 

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30 minutes ago, onlyme2 said:

800,000 have been through the H1B programme thus far apparently.

 

Sounds like a fairly big number, but when you consider it's been running at last since the early 90s (I worked in the US on an H1B in 1995) and the population of the US is 318 million that works out at around 0.01% of the US population on an H1B visa each each year.

Chickenfeed in the grand scheme of things.

You could also make the argument that this is how the USA excels in many areas - they take the best from other countries and use their skills. 

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How does this Hb1 work?  A mate of mine, daughter got a job with a Californian company.  Hoops to jump through. Managed to get a one year visa. After the year, the company wanted to extend the contract. Hoops again and then into a lottery. Lost and is now back in the uk. 

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6 hours ago, Fairyland said:

But the UK doesn't have h1B visa system.

 

It has intra-company transfer visas instead (also used to have the HSMV). The US equivalent is the L1 visa which is very commonly used by outsourcing companies.

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17 minutes ago, One-percent said:

How does this Hb1 work?  A mate of mine, daughter got a job with a Californian company.  Hoops to jump through. Managed to get a one year visa. After the year, the company wanted to extend the contract. Hoops again and then into a lottery. Lost and is now back in the uk. 

That doesn't sound like an H1 visa, they last for 3 years in the first instance for UK citizens. 

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19 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Sounds like a fairly big number, but when you consider it's been running at last since the early 90s (I worked in the US on an H1B in 1995) and the population of the US is 318 million that works out at around 0.01% of the US population on an H1B visa each each year.

Chickenfeed in the grand scheme of things.

You could also make the argument that this is how the USA excels in many areas - they take the best from other countries and use their skills. 

Very different now.

I went for 1 year on a H1b. I was paid the same as the merkins i worked with plus they sorted me a flat.

Ditto the bloke who came to uk to work in my seat.

It was a culture/invest thing/get to know the foreign people you work with.

H1b has been hugely abused since 2002ish.

Still did not suss the dating and bases thing.

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1 minute ago, TheBlueCat said:

That doesn't sound like an H1 visa, they last for 3 years in the first instance for UK citizens. 

It was deffo a one year work visa and it wasn't renewed.

on a slightly different vein, I had an American student a few years back.  One of the most intelligent and committed students I have ever taught.  She had met an English bloke so wanted to settle. Had a job lined up post qualification. The hoops she had to jump through. I don't really understand why there is not an easier exchange between us and the USA when we seem to be opening our doors to the worlds population from elsewhere 

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10 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Very different now.

I went for 1 year on a H1b. I was paid the same as the merkins i worked with plus they sorted me a flat.

Ditto the bloke who came to uk to work in my seat.

It was a culture/invest thing/get to know the foreign people you work with.

H1b has been hugely abused since 2002ish.

Still did not suss the dating and bases thing.

Still a trivial number of people over 25+ years.

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Just now, Futuroid said:

Still a trivial number of people over 25+ years.

Differ setup.

I went for experience.

H1b is being done as a means of replacing  Us workers. It stinks now.

A big rise in min.wage and insistence that indian workers can only come over if american companies can trade in India.

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29 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Differ setup.

I went for experience.

H1b is being done as a means of replacing  Us workers. It stinks now.

A big rise in min.wage and insistence that indian workers can only come over if american companies can trade in India.

H1b was always used as a way to replace workers at one level - or get them cheaper than they could at home, by avoiding the cost of training skilled workers. 

In the same way we get doctors from other less developed nations that have given them training and experience because we are too poorly organised or cheap to train our own.

This is not new - when you need skills and yourself falling behind, immigration is the first port of call. The USA has been at it for quite some time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun

As the EU workers go home, the UK will be hiring all sorts of people from Indian, Pakistan, Turkey, Malaysia, etc.

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8 hours ago, Fairyland said:

Worried, will this happen in the UK?

lol are you trolling?

ALL new factories have been going to east europe for a very long time. Audi, mercedes, etc.

ALL bank backoffice jobs are going to east europe. Look it up, jp morgan poland, morgan stanley hungary, etc. They've started there in 2004-2006 with the headcount of 1 after EU went east and by now there are tens of thousands of highly paid jobs there. And they want to double/triple the headcount in the forecoming years. These jobs are gone regardless of brexit.

 

For the jobs staying here you have a lot more people competing, due to immigration from those countries, pushing down your wages. 

Plus brits pay a lot into EU while EE takes out money...
Plus brits pay the bailout to the banks, while they are transferring the jobs to somewhere else...

 

I just dont beleive there are british people wanting to remain, when a hardest possible brexit is what britain needs. Not WTO terms, but WTO terms + 20% on top of it. Manufacturing, backoffice and most finance jobs are lost anyway. You need a very hard brexit, so pound goes down and they might even bring back some if the jobs. And as there are no EU regulations anymore you can protect your - now much cheaper - UK assets by banning/taxing foreign ownership of things.

 

If tech giants and research need talent they will come here anyway, as developments, software, research activities are not products that are traded, there are no customs to be paid. Especially true if pound falls due to hard brexit.

 

WTO terms + 20% - so some low skilled work might worth doing in britain, low pound - so some low skilled work will come back to britain, extreme amounts into education of british, extreme amounts into technology and research, that's the recipe.

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4 hours ago, One-percent said:

It was deffo a one year work visa and it wasn't renewed.

on a slightly different vein, I had an American student a few years back.  One of the most intelligent and committed students I have ever taught.  She had met an English bloke so wanted to settle. Had a job lined up post qualification. The hoops she had to jump through. I don't really understand why there is not an easier exchange between us and the USA when we seem to be opening our doors to the worlds population from elsewhere 

Probably a J-1. And yes, agreed completely, we (Canada is the same so I'm safe saying that) seem to be entirely open any old waster rocking up from some parts of the world but then completely closed to the student you describe.

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More people cross training their indian replacements today. Only 95 people but its only a few days since the thread started....

'Sources told us the roles are to be offshored to India and that some staff had actually helped to train their replacements. LBG refused to comment on this' 

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/23/lloyds_banking_group_call_centre_staffers/

As unbowed said its only really picked up in the IT press. 

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