What to do in the side lines?

[giggler000]

Like most HPCers, sitting in the side lines, waiting for some years for a normalise of market has really been taking its toll.  Over 16+years of hard work, saving by both of us has given us a nest egg, we could afford a small 1 or 2bed place, perhaps a flat with no garden about 25-30miles from where we presently rent (no mortgage).  Not ideal, nor something we would want.  It's upsetting that I couldn't even buy my old council 50's damp ridden semi where I grow up.

Other half wants to buy.  Says, if we loose it because I've been talking about what other people have been saying about the system and potential depositor bail-in's then it's my fault now...

I don't like to think about the possibility that some banker could take our life savings.  Also if we did get HPC, I'd be so gutted that I felt forced into buying something I never wanted just because of panic or thoughts that this is it.  I know there are lots of other people on here waiting, some have given up. 

 

I guess what I am asking is what options have you people given yourself or found and how would you protect your wealth in today's strange world? Should I consider land purchase?  What have you considered?  Where to look?  It's persuading the other half that's the problem for anything other than her own roof.

[honkydonkey]

At this juncture we're all up a creek without a paddle. £ decimated, so buying in Europe 20% more expensive than a few years ago, buying now seems crazy, as it has done for 10 years, having money in the bank seems dangerous, bitcoin all time highs, gold relatively good value but risky if you're putting life savings into it, owning a house poses a large risk if big mortgage, shares at all time highs etc.....The whole system is on a precipice.

My conclusion is we're fooked. I'm buying a campervan and will trundle around in that for a while and ignore it all.

It's funny, you think having money in the bank comes with peace of mind. LOL to that idea in this day and age.

[Si1]

6 minutes ago, honkydonkey said:

At this juncture we're all up a creek without a paddle. £ decimated, so buying in Europe 20% more expensive than a few years ago, buying now seems crazy, as it has done for 10 years, having money in the bank seems dangerous, bitcoin all time highs, gold relatively good value but risky if you're putting life savings into it, owning a house poses a large risk if big mortgage, shares at all time highs etc.....The whole system is on a precipice.

My conclusion is we're fooked. I'm buying a campervan and will trundle around in that for a while and ignore it all.

It's funny, you think having money in the bank comes with peace of mind. LOL to that idea in this day and age.

+1

[GreenDevil]

13 minutes ago, honkydonkey said:

At this juncture we're all up a creek without a paddle. £ decimated, so buying in Europe 20% more expensive than a few years ago, buying now seems crazy, as it has done for 10 years, having money in the bank seems dangerous, bitcoin all time highs, gold relatively good value but risky if you're putting life savings into it, owning a house poses a large risk if big mortgage, shares at all time highs etc.....The whole system is on a precipice.

My conclusion is we're fooked. I'm buying a campervan and will trundle around in that for a while and ignore it all.

It's funny, you think having money in the bank comes with peace of mind. LOL to that idea in this day and age.

Cash is always king on the edge of a precipice of the mother of all crashes.

You have to decide if it really is though? Just becuase everything is going to all time high, is it really fooked? Or can it just keep on running? Money is worthless. Assets are rising.

The only other option is propertdee, after all it only ever goes up?

[LC1]

Feel your pain, OP. Similar position here, other half tired of waiting for HPC that may not come anytime soon. It pains me that our rent is so extortionate, but it is a nice house in a nice area. It's all a gamble at this point, there are precious few certainties. We're waiting to see what the next 6-12 months will bring, then we'll reassess. 

[Mr Banks]

56 minutes ago, giggler000 said:

Like most HPCers, sitting in the side lines, waiting for some years for a normalise of market has really been taking its toll.  Over 16+years of hard work, saving by both of us has given us a nest egg, we could afford a small 1 or 2bed place, perhaps a flat with no garden about 25-30miles from where we presently rent (no mortgage).  Not ideal, nor something we would want.  It's upsetting that I couldn't even buy my old council 50's damp ridden semi where I grow up.

Other half wants to buy.  Says, if we loose it because I've been talking about what other people have been saying about the system and potential depositor bail-in's then it's my fault now...

I don't like to think about the possibility that some banker could take our life savings.  Also if we did get HPC, I'd be so gutted that I felt forced into buying something I never wanted just because of panic or thoughts that this is it.  I know there are lots of other people on here waiting, some have given up. 

 

I guess what I am asking is what options have you people given yourself or found and how would you protect your wealth in today's strange world? Should I consider land purchase?  What have you considered?  Where to look?  It's persuading the other half that's the problem for anything other than her own roof.

This is what worries me. I have over 100K my other half has about half that as well (we are both 30 so in an enviable position for our generation) and we are really worried about either bail ins or inflation taking hold whilst interest rates are held low. I worked damn hard for my money and don't like seeing it go to waste. I could 3 years ago (annoyingly whilst still in my probationary period at work) have afforded to buy in Chatteris/mildenhall/lakenheath or other less desirable town (commutable to Cambridge) but for cash now no chance even in the BTL hotspots of Mildenhall. The idea of a mortgage still scares me in uncertain times. I have my pension but am deeply skeptical about future legislation changes and if ther is no HPC then i may need that money to buy a house.

The other option is to move and buy up north there are Software Jobs up there not as many and certainly on lower pay. So a purchase of a home up there away from my family but in great motorcycle riding territory could be an option. I am seriously consideing a cash purchase of property then max out pension contributions to the full £40k a year. That would be just to spite the government though and take advantage of the tax reduction as money tied up in pension cannot be accessed whilst I am stil fit and healthy. I guess a hedge against currency inflation is investing in british companies on the FTSE which generally gets lifted by currency falls, still sares are not really a fluid asset. Your selling time will dictate how much money is made or lost. A stock market crash for example co-inciding with a HPC (not unrealistic scenario) could have a similar effect of my savings being woth less so in no better situation than I am now. Buying gold in a no for me as I have no where to store it, Cars/antiques likewise and bitcoin looks too volitile for me/ a big leap of faith following events like Mt Gox.

Sorry no answers but just to emphasise you are right many people don't know what to spend their money on to maintain capital.

[Wayward]

More and more folks beginning to lose hope and starting to think that it really is different this time and HPI forever is here to stay...no its not different this time and in time the market will turn and correct as it always does.  However this doesn't mean you individually will be able to get ahead...the market will correct when we have an economic downturn and you might be one of those out of a job.  We are all fighting over the same housing stock, a HPC doesn't mean the nation will be better housed...its about reallocation - standing on someone else's fingers - hopefully a BTLer but its not clear they will be the ones panic selling, many will weather it out.

[rantnrave]

Feel your pain OP. What's annoyed me is that by early 2013, my plans were looking to have paid off. With furious savings on the side lines, we had 70% of the funds needed to buy the sort of place we wanted with cash. Not quite enough to start making 'cheeky' offers, but definitely heading there.

Today, thanks to FLS, HTB and laundered money streaming out of London we still have 70% of what we need - despite saving harder than ever before. Except now we have a little one and it pains me that there's no garden to be enjoyed. Rental place is in need of some TLC, especially the bathroom. Mrs Rave has made some good new friends through the school the wee one is now at, but she is reluctant to invite people back to our place and has started saying for the first time in years that we should look at buying.

[Dorkins]

Sounds like you've allowed buying a house to become the reason you go to work (albeit through saving for a future purchase rather than paying off a mortgage now). You need other goals so that you have more than one thing to track progress towards.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Dorkins

[Dreamcasting]

I'm really worried about the money sitting in my bank account. People in debt are getting even further in to debt yet i've yet to come across anyone who is suffering because of it. I'm actually worse off because of my savings. Oh the irony and anger at that. Personally, I doubt QE and ultra low interests rates are finished with any time soon. I can easily see many further rounds of QE, probably on a much bigger scale than we have seen before, and interest rates being held down for many many years to come. It's fairly obvious now that this government has no intentions of supporting the currency under any circumstances.

Governments and bankers love debtors and hate savers. This has been clear for some time, but no matter where I look, everything, and I mean everything is in a bubble, it's now impossible to not lose out in the end no matter what you do.

[BLOW FLY]

18 minutes ago, Dreamcasting said:

I'm really worried about the money sitting in my bank account. People in debt are getting even further in to debt yet i've yet to come across anyone who is suffering because of it. I'm actually worse off because of my savings. Oh the irony and anger at that. Personally, I doubt QE and ultra low interests rates are finished with any time soon. I can easily see many further rounds of QE, probably on a much bigger scale than we have seen before, and interest rates being held down for many many years to come. It's fairly obvious now that this government has no intentions of supporting the currency under any circumstances.

Governments and bankers love debtors and hate savers. This has been clear for some time, but no matter where I look, everything, and I mean everything is in a bubble, it's now impossible to not lose out in the end no matter what you do.

 

+1 I've resigned myself to that same conclusion.

Our landlord passed away last year, we asked and we got first refusal on the house we were renting. 

Never thought our offer would be accepted, (nigh on £40k less than asking) which it wasn't but we did deal at their lowest probate valuation which was £5k more than our initial offer.

Everything now going through solicitors.

Was it right, was it wrong, who knows.....?

All I know is we had the deposit, we have a little one in school in the area and we liked the house so it felt right to just get on and do it.

Time will tell if it was a sound decision financially I guess but from and emotional and family point of view it's definitely the right decision.

BF

[renting til I die]

To all of the people who are worried about having money in the bank and the bias of governments and central bank to debtors. The situation has continued for far longer than any of us imagined and may well have some time to run but the situation is unsustainable, it may feel like it has been going on for a long time but it cannot go on forever. 

As far as protecting your savings. I would suggest if you have all of your money in one account, that you, at the minimum, split it over several accounts. Better, would be to diversify, 5-10% precious metals, 30-70% Equities (I know that is a wide range but it covers a lot of scenarios).

We are all here because we think property values are too high, but if you do find yourself in a situation like @BLOW FLY then there is nothing wrong with biting the bullet and buying. As least you will be going into it with your eyes wide open! Of course, you have to be able to afford it and be comfortable with the levels of debt you are taking on first! Good luck by the way!

[renting til I die]

1 hour ago, Dreamcasting said:

People in debt are getting even further in to debt yet i've yet to come across anyone who is suffering because of it. I'm actually worse off because of my savings. Oh the irony and anger at that.

Why are you worse off because of your savings? See your savings as giving you options, not as a dead weight.

Edited March 15, 2017 by renting til I die
Typo

[Gribble]

6 hours ago, giggler000 said:

Like most HPCers, sitting in the side lines, waiting for some years for a normalise of market has really been taking its toll.  Over 16+years of hard work, saving by both of us has given us a nest egg, we could afford a small 1 or 2bed place, perhaps a flat with no garden about 25-30miles from where we presently rent (no mortgage).  Not ideal, nor something we would want.  It's upsetting that I couldn't even buy my old council 50's damp ridden semi where I grow up.

Other half wants to buy.  Says, if we loose it because I've been talking about what other people have been saying about the system and potential depositor bail-in's then it's my fault now...

I don't like to think about the possibility that some banker could take our life savings.  Also if we did get HPC, I'd be so gutted that I felt forced into buying something I never wanted just because of panic or thoughts that this is it.  I know there are lots of other people on here waiting, some have given up. 

 

I guess what I am asking is what options have you people given yourself or found and how would you protect your wealth in today's strange world? Should I consider land purchase?  What have you considered?  Where to look?  It's persuading the other half that's the problem for anything other than her own roof.

Sympathise. I reckon wait till December and if you can stash money to Euros ASAP. The crash will come via renters and mortgage holders/ being stretched as £ fall further and there is no doubt we are clearly past peak/prices rent. 

PS always good to state what part of the country you are in as otherwise prices/property data are not informative for the viewers

[renting til I die]

2 minutes ago, Gribble said:

Sympathise. I reckon wait till December and if you can stash money to Euros ASAP. The crash will come via renters and mortgage holders/ being stretched as £ fall further and there is no doubt we are clearly past peak/prices rent. 

PS always good to state what part of the country you are in as otherwise prices/property data are not informative for the viewers

Do you really think that the pound will be falling that much further?

Don't you see a possibility of the Euro having a sudden value drop?

I don't understand your statement 'we are clearly past peak/prices rent.'? Do you mean you think we are past peak prices or peak rents? Or maybe past peak rental yields?

[Dreamcasting]

45 minutes ago, renting til I die said:

As far as protecting your savings. I would suggest if you have all of your money in one account, that you, at the minimum, split it over several accounts. Better, would be to diversify, 5-10% precious metals, 30-70% Equities (I know that is a wide range but it covers a lot of scenarios).

It's more about protecting the "value" of the savings that counts. Inflation is clearly way higher than the official figures state, so already the value is decreasing month on month. This is likely to continue being the case for years to come. You can't protect the value of your savings by splitting it across multiple accounts, or by stashing it under the mattress. You stick £85K in a bank that goes under - no problem, you haven't lost your money, you're going to get the money back thanks to freshly printed notes pumped into the system by the BoE, but the question then is What is the value of that £85K?

Precious metals, particularly gold, was always a good way to store wealth. The problem is that the PM markets are manipulated and rigged to the hilt. The price of gold is set by the paper price which is controlled by the central bankers. The bankers and the government won't allow anyone to store wealth in gold because they want you to spend spend spend and stimulate the economy. It's no accident that the price of gold and silver, at least in USD terms, has plummeted, despite billions of fiat being pumped in through QE.

[Venger]

2 hours ago, Dreamcasting said:

I'm really worried about the money sitting in my bank account. People in debt are getting even further in to debt yet i've yet to come across anyone who is suffering because of it. I'm actually worse off because of my savings. Oh the irony and anger at that. Personally, I doubt QE and ultra low interests rates are finished with any time soon. I can easily see many further rounds of QE, probably on a much bigger scale than we have seen before, and interest rates being held down for many many years to come. It's fairly obvious now that this government has no intentions of supporting the currency under any circumstances.

Governments and bankers love debtors and hate savers. This has been clear for some time, but no matter where I look, everything, and I mean everything is in a bubble, it's now impossible to not lose out in the end no matter what you do.

 

Become a man and make your decision in the market.

Millions of other people get income in £ and house prices are in £.

BTLers have doubled down and have equity in their own homes they can sell if they need to make whole debts and CGT profitz on the BTLs at sale (many of who have MEWed that profit to buy more houses).

A big jolt is on the BTLers with Section24 and a lot more.

My decision is to wait and rent and be as happy as possible.  I refuse to buy in a housing market that has been saturated with BTLer activity.

Banks (the banking system overall) are way way better capitalised than in 2007-2008, and BTLers have doubled down.  The BTLers are taking lot of balance sheet risk and with £Trillions in equity in the market, a HPC , if we have one in areas most affected by severe HPI, is just an ego thing for so many other owners.

UK companies are sat on a cash pile of £1Trillion according to an article I read in The Times the other day, suggesting that they are nervous of using those monies in this economy (uncertaintly), Hammond would like them to begin spending some of that money productively.

If you are so worried and think buying is best, at these prices, then buy a property.  Just choose.

[Dreamcasting]

58 minutes ago, renting til I die said:

Why are you worse off because of your savings? See your savings as giving you options, not as a dead weight.

The value of my savings is continuously decreasing. Chad down the road doesn't have any savings, but then he doesn't need to as the banks are happy for him to borrow large sums of money each year. If chad loses his job, he'll get help. If I lose my job, i'll get nothing.

[Dreamcasting]

3 hours ago, Wayward said:

More and more folks beginning to lose hope and starting to think that it really is different this time and HPI forever is here to stay...no its not different this time and in time the market will turn and correct as it always does.  However this doesn't mean you individually will be able to get ahead...the market will correct when we have an economic downturn and you might be one of those out of a job.  We are all fighting over the same housing stock, a HPC doesn't mean the nation will be better housed...its about reallocation - standing on someone else's fingers - hopefully a BTLer but its not clear they will be the ones panic selling, many will weather it out.

We don't have a market. Since the 08 crash, everything is tightly controlled by central bankers. Unless you have inside knowledge, you're playing with fire and you're more than likely going to get burned badly, be it with property, stocks, or by just keeping the money in the bank.

[giggler000]

1 hour ago, Gribble said:

Sympathise. I reckon wait till December and if you can stash money to Euros ASAP. The crash will come via renters and mortgage holders/ being stretched as £ fall further and there is no doubt we are clearly past peak/prices rent. 

PS always good to state what part of the country you are in as otherwise prices/property data are not informative for the viewers

Oxfordshire and thanks for all replies.  I'm slightly pleased to hear we are not the only ones worried about sitting in the side lines.

[Wayward]

4 minutes ago, Dreamcasting said:

We don't have a market. Since the 08 crash, everything is tightly controlled by central bankers. Unless you have inside knowledge, you're playing with fire and you're more than likely going to get burned badly, be it with property, stocks, or by just keeping the money in the bank.

Hi...well I agree we have a distorted market in property, shares, currency, bonds and just about everything and distorted markets are best avoided.  But what can you do, you have to store your wealth somewhere or spend it?  I share the frustrations articulated on this thread...I have pretty much given up on consumerism.  I work but I don't spend...only essentials.  Only time I spend any money is when I go over seas on holiday.

If I lost hope and bought a house now it would mean that I had effectively worked and saved hard for the last ten years for ZERO.  All that work and money saved would be simply handed over to a property owner that had sat pretty on the HPI rocket ship whilst I toiled away.  They can go screw...I will emigrate first.

[Dreamcasting]

3 minutes ago, Wayward said:

Hi...well I agree we have a distorted market in property, shares, currency, bonds and just about everything and distorted markets are best avoided.  But what can you do, you have to store your wealth somewhere or spend it?  I share the frustrations articulated on this thread...I have pretty much given up on consumerism.  I work but I don't spend...only essentials.  Only time I spend any money is when I go over seas on holiday.

If I lost hope and bought a house now it would mean that I had effectively worked and saved hard for the last ten years for ZERO.  All that work and money saved would be simply handed over to a property owner that had sat pretty on the HPI rocket ship whilst I toiled away.  They can go screw...I will emigrate first.

They've made it impossible for you to store wealth. Only the rich elite can store wealth in this day and age. They want every single person in debt to keep the system going. After all, the system is entirely based on debt. The governments and central bankers have warned people the entire time: either spend your money and get into debt, or they will relieve you of the money one way or another. Now there's only so much debt they can extract from the existent debtors, which is why they turned their attention to savers. Rising inflation with ultra low interest rates and QE is the method they have chosen to relieve savers of money. I believe there is a lot more QE to come by the way. Emigrating sounded great, until I realised that things aren't better anywhere else as pretty much every nation is controlled in a systemic method. There's clearly a New World Order in operation right now, albeit in an early formation at this point.

[North London Rent Girl]

7 hours ago, giggler000 said:

I don't like to think about the possibility that some banker could take our life savings. 

Hate to break it to you OP but that is sort of what is happening a little bit each day! Huge sympathy for your predicament, think it is that of majority on here. I certainly feel like I've fallen into something that should be called the 'savings trap'. Once you get that first proper chunk of savings in the bank and you know how hard you worked for it, you're reluctant to gamble it on an insane market that surely has to sober up at any minute... The other side of it is that you think you have a handle on what money is and so what it takes to pay back debt, so the thought of getting into a couple of hundred quids' worth of debt give you cold sweats, especially if you're self-employed. The more you save, the stronger an effect those two thoughts have.  Ten years down the road, you realise that you've got it cardinally wrong because you're living in an era of financial repression, so if you had gambled that first bit of savings and got into gallumphing debt you would have been richly rewarded. As it is, you didn't and now you're stuffed. I put in my last 'old school' offer in early 1999 - 7 grand or so deposit, property just under 100 grand. The vendor had so many offers, put the price up twice, second time to just over 100 and I was out, couldn't borrow more. Chances are, five years later, I could have got back in because things had really changed - I could have borrowed a wodge and I'd saved a reasonable chunk of cash. But I was by then in the savings trap. Although I was a freelancer by then, so couldn't have borrowed as much as an employed person. Ho hum, who knows, all water under the bridge.

What to do in the meantime, hmm. Dunno, sorry - what I have been doing for the past, ooh, 17 years is hang in there, stay aware that you are not alone and it's not your fault and try not to let it dictate your life. OK scratch that last one, it's impossible. I'd love to say something like 'it's definitely not a good idea to buy now' but I was saying that to people - honestly - in the early naughties. Surely it has to be different now, so far into this bubble? Or whatever it is, we need new vocabulary for this economy. It seems to me that your instincts have to be right and it would be complete insanity to buy now, more so than 5/10/15 years ago. Especially with prices starting to fall in some areas - check out the prime london crashing thread if you need a morale-boost. You are, unfortunately, up the same creek of weirdness and uncertainty as the rest of us. Your cash is losing money but how adventurous should you get with other investments? What if we enter a deflationary period - isn't it better to have it nearly all in cash then? What's going to happen with gold and silver - will they fall alongside house prices if they crash? I'm not very good with personal finance but I get the impression that even people who are are pretty bewildered. We really are through the looking-glass, does anyone really know what's going to happen next?

Oh and btw, see you're a new poster, welcome!

[Wayward]

6 minutes ago, Dreamcasting said:

They've made it impossible for you to store wealth. Only the rich elite can store wealth in this day and age. They want every single person in debt to keep the system going. After all, the system is entirely based on debt. The governments and central bankers have warned people the entire time: either spend your money and get into debt, or they will relieve you of the money one way or another. Now there's only so much debt they can extract from the existent debtors, which is why they turned their attention to savers. Rising inflation with ultra low interest rates and QE is the method they have chosen to relieve savers of money. I believe there is a lot more QE to come by the way. Emigrating sounded great, until I realised that things aren't better anywhere else as pretty much every nation is controlled in a systemic method. There's clearly a New World Order in operation right now, albeit in an early formation at this point.

I agree they don't want you to hold cash...but then holding cash for long periods of time was never a good idea.  My shares are doing okay at the moment, but the time for buying has passed.  Also actually my cash held in P2P is holding its value at least in terms of RPI.

[North London Rent Girl]

28 minutes ago, giggler000 said:

Oxfordshire and thanks for all replies.  I'm slightly pleased to hear we are not the only ones worried about sitting in the side lines.

good grief, understatement of the week! there are soooo many of us - I would have thought especially amongst you 30-somethings, no? and go and talk to some 20-somethings. this thing is humungous.