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Turn! Turn! Turn! (To Everything There Is a Season)


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HOLA441
1 minute ago, HairyOb1 said:

I also don’t subscribe to the lottery of birth and feel we should have open borders.

The Dutch/Pole couple are leaving.  Her kids, who were all born here, and actually sound like West Country kids, are being bullied at school.

I wouldn't mind open borders if we put the following on visas

1) Please don't ask for benefits because a punch in the face can offend

2) Please don't try to enforce sharia because a bullet in the head may offend

 

Very sad that people leave because of bullying - although it is a big problem in the UK - even if your British.

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HOLA442
1 minute ago, iamnumerate said:

I wouldn't mind open borders if we put the following on visas

1) Please don't ask for benefits because a punch in the face can offend

2) Please don't try to enforce sharia because a bullet in the head may offend

 

Very sad that people leave because of bullying - although it is a big problem in the UK - even if your British.

I agree completely.  But I also don't mind mosques being built, nor people wearing veils.

I think benefits should be contributions based and absolutely minimal if you don't have contributions and by that, I mean food vouchers, etc.  The French pay benefits like the English do, but you have to go through all of the bells and whistles to get them, and they aren't much for non contributory claimants.  They are a safety blanket, as they should be.

Indians I have worked with are going back to India, as the economy is doing well in the IT industry and pay is creeping up to western standards.  Now Indians are a nation of sending money home, as well as the Pakistanis I have worked with, so most have a home back there all paid for, so can handle smaller wages.  They've all said England isn't home.  Once India pays as much money as the UK does, they will be so many that go back.  That's what equivalence does.

And when we've sold everything to China and we're moving to 3rd world status, we'll be glad of our kids being taught mandarin so they can at least move away and get work.

 

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HOLA443
2 minutes ago, slawek said:

Anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything.

The house prices began to rise in late 1990 before the increase of immigration from the UK in 2004.

The number of new houses built is enough for the population increase.  

It is just greed, greed, greed.

There was large scale immigration before 2004, I remember telling a new friend in 2001 how awful it was how much prices had increased.  His response was what do you expect with so much immigration - he was a new immigrant himself so could hardly be accused of racism! 

 

 

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HOLA444
1 minute ago, HairyOb1 said:

I agree completely.  But I also don't mind mosques being built, nor people wearing veils.

I think benefits should be contributions based and absolutely minimal if you don't have contributions and by that, I mean food vouchers, etc.  The French pay benefits like the English do, but you have to go through all of the bells and whistles to get them, and they aren't much for non contributory claimants.  They are a safety blanket, as they should be.

Indians I have worked with are going back to India, as the economy is doing well in the IT industry and pay is creeping up to western standards.  Now Indians are a nation of sending money home, as well as the Pakistanis I have worked with, so most have a home back there all paid for, so can handle smaller wages.  They've all said England isn't home.  Once India pays as much money as the UK does, they will be so many that go back.  That's what equivalence does.

And when we've sold everything to China and we're moving to 3rd world status, we'll be glad of our kids being taught mandarin so they can at least move away and get work.

 

I don't mind people wearing veils providing I can wear a mask in those places.  Men and women should be  equal.

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HOLA445
On 3/14/2017 at 8:56 AM, iamnumerate said:

I am not sure if the neo-liberal dream includes huge welfare state.  I think people use the term "neo liberal" as a all purpose insult now days.  I would call "mass immigration, huge welfare state, ZIRP to fund it all" Osbrown economics.

BrownOs sounds more apt ;).  Throw in a "Neo" to shine it up and make it official.

NeoBrownOs economics - corporate creeps.

Edited by billybong
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HOLA446
On 3/15/2017 at 10:56 AM, iamnumerate said:

The problem with that theory is that Japan and Korea have not had tax credits nor mass immigration and their companies are doing fine possibly better than ours.

So either a) Corporate interests are dictating policy that is not good for them b') what is good for our companies is not good for Japanese ones or c) Corporate interests do not dictate Government policy.

Possibly because they are different types of companies?  Lots of UK companies are retail/food etc type with customers on low pay so companies need subsidised labour to cut costs to sell stuff.

Lots of German and Japanese companies are manufacturing with a lot selling to governments or consumers who are able to take on large amounts of debt.

Of course all those countries have some of both retail and manufacturing etc but the balance and mix within each is very different.

Edited by billybong
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HOLA447
39 minutes ago, slawek said:

Anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything.

The house prices began to rise in late 1990 before the increase of immigration from the UK in 2004.

The number of new houses built is enough for the population increase.  

It is just greed, greed, greed.

Not sure.

There's an unholy trinity at play over the last 15 years,  all related, all destructive to the British economy.

All connected to that loon Brown.

First off IO BTL starts in the late 90s, goes hyper in the early 2000s. All part of Brown massive credit bubble. Fcking loon.

Then tax credits come in. They started off OK in TVv1 in 2002. Then Brown fcked up, so he ramped up the money. The real 'win' with TC is if you are on HB, so you get WTC, CTC, CB, TC all in one big payout. Why pay a mortgage and work when you get claim TCs and get the HB to pay a LL.

Then the EE ascension countries kick in, drawing over millions of EEers,  Yes, I know people doubt my figures. I know what I see and hear walking about town. The number of EEers are OTT esp in the last 2 years.

The intitial batch were young, single educated and working. I have a couple of friends from that batch.

These were followed by benefit families. Token jobs doing tills or working in a car wash or Polish shop.

Then you have the dregs who have followed in the last few years. Drunks, dossers, scum.

The last two batches are, in them ian, in BTL accommodation. Some probably owned by the first generation. Some by Fatty Fergus.

 

Post Brexit, EU FOM will remain. EU benefit entitlement will go. But this will be in place round the EU too.

The countries that do have generous benefits - mainly Northern European - are all out of patience with the Roma.

No itehr EU country has a benefit system as insane and expensive as tax credits.

I'll be interested to see who much UKGOV deficit reduces by. I reckon we are talking billions. We'll see.

 

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HOLA448
1 hour ago, HairyOb1 said:

I agree completely.  But I also don't mind mosques being built, nor people wearing veils.

I think benefits should be contributions based and absolutely minimal if you don't have contributions and by that, I mean food vouchers, etc.  The French pay benefits like the English do, but you have to go through all of the bells and whistles to get them, and they aren't much for non contributory claimants.  They are a safety blanket, as they should be.

Indians I have worked with are going back to India, as the economy is doing well in the IT industry and pay is creeping up to western standards.  Now Indians are a nation of sending money home, as well as the Pakistanis I have worked with, so most have a home back there all paid for, so can handle smaller wages.  They've all said England isn't home.  Once India pays as much money as the UK does, they will be so many that go back.  That's what equivalence does.

And when we've sold everything to China and we're moving to 3rd world status, we'll be glad of our kids being taught mandarin so they can at least move away and get work.

 

My highlight.

They tried that before Brown's regime and handouts - but they weren't happy with the food vouchers and started wrecking the joint and burning places down (not necessarily the EEs but those that came before - almost as if they were preparing the ground for the mass migration).  

The authorities caved in.  

So for any similar system to be successful would need a much different response and not just cave in.

Edited by billybong
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HOLA449

It needs to be done, in order to slowly let the money supply into the economy slow gently.

I don't think many are now non contributory.  All of the EE's now here, would have paid something in.

I also think there has to be a fudge by the UK/EU on FOM in the 4 EU rules, and I really don't expect much to change.  Our hand is piss poor and we're goign to the EU with them knowing only a few people want a hard brexit and that's what they're going to offer.  In my opinion...

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HOLA4410
13 minutes ago, billybong said:

My highlight.

They tried that before Brown's regime and handouts - but they weren't happy with the food vouchers and started wrecking the joint and burning places down (not necessarily the EEs but those that came before - almost as if they were preparing the ground for the mass migration).  

The authorities caved in.  

So for any similar system to be successful would need a much different response and not just cave in.

Got any links regarding that please? I may have been too young to notice at the time...

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HOLA4411
1 minute ago, Inoperational Bumblebee said:

Got any links regarding that please? I may have been too young to notice at the time...

It didnt happen.

Up to the early 2000s people were bumbling along with crap dole (for people who worked and paid tx) and low benefits (for people who spent theit time on them).

There were never any burning cars in the streets.

TC came about as Brown wanted everyone working for the state or paid by it, so theyd vote for him.

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HOLA4412
7 minutes ago, spyguy said:

It didnt happen.

Up to the early 2000s people were bumbling along with crap dole (for people who worked and paid tx) and low benefits (for people who spent theit time on them).

There were never any burning cars in the streets.

TC came about as Brown wanted everyone working for the state or paid by it, so theyd vote for him.

That's just speculation, and also, even if it were true, was spectacularly wrong...

Have to agree that I haven't seen folk in the street burning anything.  I did a turn on the dole in the 80's after I left Uni, about 5 months before I left to go abroad to work, there was nothing where I was from.  Non contribution dole lasted about a day, maybe 2.  From memory, about £21 a week....

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HOLA4413
35 minutes ago, Inoperational Bumblebee said:

Got any links regarding that please? I may have been too young to notice at the time...

From memory this was in the 90s before the internet (and migrants lived in camps and were issued food vouchers - when their case was being considered) so a search doesn't offer anything up.  Another aspect was lots of local opposition to the camps wherever they were built.  It was reported in all the media.

From memory to try to date it it was roughly about the time that a plane full of migrants landing in the UK made the national headlines - it had to stay on the tarmac for a long time until a decision was made whether they could stay.  Similarly a search doesn't offer anything.

I dare say it's in newspapers' olden day archives if you are interested in contacting them.

Edited by billybong
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HOLA4414
18 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

That's just speculation, and also, even if it were true, was spectacularly wrong...

Have to agree that I haven't seen folk in the street burning anything.  I did a turn on the dole in the 80's after I left Uni, about 5 months before I left to go abroad to work, there was nothing where I was from.  Non contribution dole lasted about a day, maybe 2.  From memory, about £21 a week....

The voting for Brown bit did not pan out as he thought it would. But Brown is a moron.

The getting everyone employed by the state, or on benefits is still ongoing and has hardly been turned around.

 

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HOLA4415
33 minutes ago, spyguy said:

It didnt happen.

Up to the early 2000s people were bumbling along with crap dole (for people who worked and paid tx) and low benefits (for people who spent theit time on them).

There were never any burning cars in the streets.

TC came about as Brown wanted everyone working for the state or paid by it, so theyd vote for him.

Believe me it did happen (it was reported in all the national media) but from memory it was in the 90s (not the early 2000s) before Brown's time and his handouts.  Maybe a bit before your time.

The wrecking the joint and burning the place down referred to the camps which they lived in.  

Edited by billybong
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HOLA4416
1 minute ago, billybong said:

Believe me it did happen (it was reported in all the national media) but from memory it was in the 90s before Brown's time and his handouts.  Maybe a bit before your time.

The wrecking the joint and burning the place down referred to the camps which they lived in.  

There was the poll tax riots in 1990.

That was it.

There was no camps of poor people, no big riots, nothing.

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HOLA4417
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HOLA4418
5 minutes ago, spyguy said:

There was the poll tax riots in 1990.

That was it.

There was no camps of poor people, no big riots, nothing.

You mustn't have read the newspapers or watched the telly then because it was a major issue as reported in those days with photos of at least one wrecked/burnt out migrant camp.

Nothing to do with the poll tax or UK poor people.

Edited by billybong
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HOLA4419
1 hour ago, Inoperational Bumblebee said:

Got any links regarding that please? I may have been too young to notice at the time...

Although this was in Bulgaria last year it is a bit reminiscent of what was reported in the UK at the time I mentioned.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/736467/Migrant-crisis-Bulgaria-migrant-deportations-refugee-riot-camp-Turkey-border

and this in Germany.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-shelter-burnt-down-in-germany-after-dispute-among-asylum-seekers-over-ramadan-meals-a7074831.html

There have been several recent instances in the eu.

 

Edited by billybong
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HOLA4420

I think the fire being referred to is referenced on Wikipedia here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarl's_Wood_Immigration_Removal_Centre

In early February 2002, the building was burnt down following a protest by the detainees. This was triggered by someone being physically restrained by staff. According to custody officer Darren Attwood, officers complied with orders to "lock the detainees in the burning building".[9] Five people were injured in the fire.[10]

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HOLA4421
20 minutes ago, billybong said:

Although this was in Bulgaria last year it is a bit reminiscent of what was reported in the UK at the time I mentioned.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/736467/Migrant-crisis-Bulgaria-migrant-deportations-refugee-riot-camp-Turkey-border

and this in Germany.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-shelter-burnt-down-in-germany-after-dispute-among-asylum-seekers-over-ramadan-meals-a7074831.html

There have been several recent instances in the eu.

 

Im not going to get stuck on this and, although I did over indulge in the 90s, I definitely do not remember any camps of rioting migrants in the UK.

We've never ha anything like Sanagtte - well boro is a bit like it at  times.

All the camps in Europe are very recent and are composed either of Roma or misc. Muslim economic migrants on the scam.

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HOLA4422
1 minute ago, Super Saints said:

I think the fire being referred to is referenced on Wikipedia here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarl's_Wood_Immigration_Removal_Centre

In early February 2002, the building was burnt down following a protest by the detainees. This was triggered by someone being physically restrained by staff. According to custody officer Darren Attwood, officers complied with orders to "lock the detainees in the burning building".[9] Five people were injured in the fire.[10]

The riot was not due to benefits cuts.

Just a bunch of economic migrants objecting to not having a free flat in Mayfair.

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HOLA4423
1 hour ago, Super Saints said:

I think the fire being referred to is referenced on Wikipedia here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarl's_Wood_Immigration_Removal_Centre

In early February 2002, the building was burnt down following a protest by the detainees. This was triggered by someone being physically restrained by staff. According to custody officer Darren Attwood, officers complied with orders to "lock the detainees in the burning building".[9] Five people were injured in the fire.[10]

The incident I was referring to was from memory in the 1990s.

A Yarls Wood video.

 

Edited by billybong
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HOLA4424
17 minutes ago, billybong said:

The incident I was referring to was from memory in the 1990s.

A Yarl's Wood video.

deo

Immigration has always existed. It's the step change in the rate of immigration that is the issue, and to suggest that the situation in the 90s is similar to the situation now is disingenuous. 

In any case, we built enough homes to house everyone who came. We have far more homes now than we did then, and more than other similar countries (more than the US, for example). 

The housing crisis was caused by a debt binge that enabled land speculation that drove a debt binge.

Edited by DrBuyToLeech
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HOLA4425
48 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Im not going to get stuck on this and, although I did over indulge in the 90s, I definitely do not remember any camps of rioting migrants in the UK.

We've never ha anything like Sanagtte - well boro is a bit like it at  times.

All the camps in Europe are very recent and are composed either of Roma or misc. Muslim economic migrants on the scam.

Our memories differ then - in those days before the internet I did read the papers and watch some telly to see what they were reporting on many issues and I do remember the things I described.

I dare say there was more to it than food vouchers alone and I dare say it was to do with general living condition factors as well but at the time there was a lot of stuff in the media that they were all complaining about surviving on food vouchers and not getting a proper income and so on then there was the wrecked/burnt out camp reported soon afterwards.  It seemed to be a bit linked and I think soon after they started to get a cash income.

The exact historical timing and maybe even the causes don't matter that much as the point I wanted to make in response to the HairyOb1 post about restricting non-contributors to say food vouchers is that it was tried in the past but those particular food voucher recipients were prepared to go to extremes to protest about that and the authorities caved in.  Maybe the authorities were just looking for an excuse.  

So my question is how likely is it that issuing food vouchers to migrant non-contributors would succeed this time round considering the lengths they would evidently go to to protest about stuff in the past and the authorities response.  That's not to say it might not be a reasonable idea to maybe consider for such total non-contributors but one has to remember what happened in the past in similar circumstances.

Edited by billybong
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