Theresa May poised to announce end of free movement for new EU migrants next month

[canbuywontbuy]

1 hour ago, Shea VanHaven said:

Law of unintended consequences.  Just read this to the end.

Firstly, l am engaged to an Italian girl.   (second time around and all that.)  I went to school with her. she came over to the UK in 1963 with her parents.  She was married to an English guy, has three twenty something children, all private schooled, and very "British."  She works for a huge Insurance company deep seated in London.  

One of my best mates is married to a Portuguese girl, (here twenty years,)have two young children- she is the manager of a building society.

There must be hundreds of thousands of cases like this, and by the large, these people are absolutely shitting themselves they will be "sent home."   Everybody I know says this will not happen, it's impossible to think it.

And then today on the BBC you read this;  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39099574   Woman deported despite 27 year marriage!

So-

IF the government decide to implement this across the board, where does it stop, and more interestingly, where does the "****** you I'm taking my family back to India, Pakistan, Caribbean, South Africa, Italy, Portugal,  Germany, France,   when exactly does people power take over, and become the unintentional consequence.   When everyone who is basically normalised turns around and says "****** you U.K."  ?

Because it could happen en masse. And if it does, there are going to be house price & wage level armageddons and all sorts of shit going down.

The one case I just linked to could embed itself in people's minds, and add to their growing fears, and tip the balance for them.  And being Auntie Beeb, they will start getting Nicky Campbell and others to flare this up and create even more tension uncertainty and unease.  Could have the airwaves awash with this in myriad call ins with people in similar situations if they choose to drive it.

Could be a real ****** up.   

Mass and uncontrolled immigration spoiled it if for people like yourself. Brexit would not have happened without the mass immigration from 2004 to 2016 (and counting).  It happened, and Brexit was a consequence of it.  Cases like yours are genuine whereas millions between 2004-2016 are just milking the tax payer and have no roots in the UK, and have spoiled it for genuine cases.  I am such one.  Trying being non-EU and having non-EU family members on settlement visas.  Tough rules, Home Office make "mistakes" that mean you get a letter saying you and your family have 28 days to leave the UK (me, as huge net contributor, no recourse to public funds).  In that case, you have 7 days to appeal - I had to take the HO to tribunal (I spent £6000 on legal fees) just so they could accept they made a mistake before the tribunal took place.  Britain should have had sane levels of immigration, then it wouldn't spoil it for genuine cases of people truly settled in the UK.  More info here & cases here > http://britcits.blogspot.com/

These kinds of troubles are normal if you're non-EU!

Edited February 27, 2017 by canbuywontbuy

[onlyme2]

3 minutes ago, Shea VanHaven said:

Not me being hysterical, it's the people who this may affect. I just suffer the bloody fallout   My partner has now applied for right to reside.  She has been advised by a solicitor not to apply or citizenship at the moment.  But this wasn't the point I was trying to make.   Namely that the individuals this personally affects are quite likely to decide for themselves it's time to go.

This case is a cluster******, don't base anything on it.  On the surface right and potential rights and wrongs on both sides.

https://www.change.org/p/save-irene-clennell-from-being-deported-her-family-is-in-the-uk?source_location=topic_page

John returned to the UK with the children in 1998 in the hope that Irene would join too. After her mother’s death, Irene returned and made at least 3 applications to renew her ILR but applications were rejected on the basis that she had used incorrect forms. 

Irene attempted to return to the UK in 2007 but was refused entry at the airport immigration checkpoint and led to believe that she was banned from returning to the UK for 5 years.

In 2008, Irene’s father was diagnosed with cancer and she stayed in Singapore to care for her father until he passed away in 2012. 

[spyguy]

A

1 minute ago, Shea VanHaven said:

Not me being hysterical, it's the people who this may affect. I just suffer the bloody fallout   My partner has now applied for right to reside.  She has been advised by a solicitor not to apply or citizenship at the moment.  But this wasn't the point I was trying to make.   Namely that the individuals this personally affects are quite likely to decide for themselves it's time to go.

All EU countries have vast, complex rules on right to reside. The EU covers over that.

The UK is very lax/liberal on residence. I have family in Germany and Spain and, even with the EU laws, have to jump through a lot of hoops and registration.

if they are working then there should be no problems.

The problems, both for he UK and EUers, is down to the freeatpointonfuse NHS and non-contrib benefits.

This is why the UK voted to leave as they attracted most of EE.

 

[spyguy]

3 minutes ago, onlyme2 said:

This case is a cluster******, don't base anything on it.  On the surface right and potential rights and wrongs on both sides.

https://www.change.org/p/save-irene-clennell-from-being-deported-her-family-is-in-the-uk?source_location=topic_page

John returned to the UK with the children in 1998 in the hope that Irene would join too. After her mother’s death, Irene returned and made at least 3 applications to renew her ILR but applications were rejected on the basis that she had used incorrect forms. 

Irene attempted to return to the UK in 2007 but was refused entry at the airport immigration checkpoint and led to believe that she was banned from returning to the UK for 5 years.

In 2008, Irene’s father was diagnosed with cancer and she stayed in Singapore to care for her father until he passed away in 2012. 

Yes .... so only lived in UK for 2 years. Tried to return in 2012.

The case is BS.

Why does husband not go to Singapore, where they have spent most time living?

Is it that the benefits are free here?

[canbuywontbuy]

4 minutes ago, spyguy said:

The problems, both for he UK and EUers, is down to the freeatpointonfuse NHS and non-contrib benefits.

This is why the UK voted to leave as they attracted most of EE.

EXACTLY.

The mass wave of immigration 2004 to 2016 is the cause of Brexit.  Sane levels of immigration = UK still in the EU.  Insane levels = Brexit. 

[Errol]

10 hours ago, Inoperational Bumblebee said:

Bring it on.

I am looking forward to the day Theresa May invokes Article 50. 

Will happen by the end of March or she is going to look like a total idiot.

[CunningPlan]

1 hour ago, Shea VanHaven said:

Law of unintended consequences.  Just read this to the end.

Firstly, l am engaged to an Italian girl.   (second time around and all that.)  I went to school with her. she came over to the UK in 1963 with her parents.  She was married to an English guy, has three twenty something children, all private schooled, and very "British."  She works for a huge Insurance company deep seated in London.  

One of my best mates is married to a Portuguese girl, (here twenty years,)have two young children- she is the manager of a building society.

There must be hundreds of thousands of cases like this, and by the large, these people are absolutely shitting themselves they will be "sent home."   Everybody I know says this will not happen, it's impossible to think it.

And then today on the BBC you read this;  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39099574   Woman deported despite 27 year marriage!

So-

IF the government decide to implement this across the board, where does it stop, and more interestingly, where does the "****** you I'm taking my family back to India, Pakistan, Caribbean, South Africa, Italy, Portugal,  Germany, France,   when exactly does people power take over, and become the unintentional consequence.   When everyone who is basically normalised turns around and says "****** you U.K."  ?

Because it could happen en masse. And if it does, there are going to be house price & wage level armageddons and all sorts of shit going down.

The one case I just linked to could embed itself in people's minds, and add to their growing fears, and tip the balance for them.  And being Auntie Beeb, they will start getting Nicky Campbell and others to flare this up and create even more tension uncertainty and unease.  Could have the airwaves awash with this in myriad call ins with people in similar situations if they choose to drive it.

Could be a real ****** up.   

Does not the Vienna convention cover your personal circumstance?

[crashmonitor]

41 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Ah the detail.

Surely its a case of why is Singapore not letting her husband in.

She lived in the UK for 2 years - 90-92. Then they lived in SIngapore for 18 years.

 

There's no free housing, health and a minimum income guarantee at the end of the Rainbow in Singapore.

They probably could stay, but where's the free package.

Edited February 27, 2017 by crashmonitor

[winkie]

1 hour ago, crashmonitor said:

Most retired  UK expats are high net worth individuals 500k + at the very least at the outset anyway. High drawings go with the territory, whatever  the myth is about it being cheaper to live abroad, high travel costs and high spenders are attracted to the expat lifestyle. Those that run out of money, quite a lot, come back with their tail between their legs and are not a burden on the Europen host, ever.

Meanwhile we take in immigrants from South and Eastern Europe with zero Equity who will not be going home if no work is found. My main concern is that after five years residency you get full citizenship and access to the retirement Ponzi, it's overly generous to the indigenous population let alone giving membership to the entire world. Opening up the scheme to the whole world is bankrupt economics*. Full housing benefit and minimum income guarantee for life.

* If that is not case pray tell how migrants survive here in retirement, of course they get absorbed into the welfare system 100%.

I think you will find that the majority of UK retires living in cheaper warm south Mediterranean moved there for the cheaper way of living and get by on basic state pensions and perhaps a little savings.....They most probably would have sold up in the UK and would have no chance of ever moving back and buying again or in many cases selling their foreign homes for what they paid for them.....Only thing keeping them there is the security of having a excellent free health cover.....Take that away they would have to up and leave, health insurance for elderly with existing health issues would be prohibitive.

Anyway most immigration into this country has come from outside the EU......Nothing will change that, more will still come.....We make the rules on what we pay in benefits and who we pay it to not the EU.

Immigration is not the reason why very many wanted out.

[GeordieAndy]

2 minutes ago, winkie said:

I think you will find that the majority of UK retires living in cheaper warm south Mediterranean moved there for the cheaper way of living and get by on basic state pensions and perhaps a little savings.....They most probably would have sold up in the UK and would have no chance of ever moving back and buying again or in many cases selling their foreign homes for what they paid for them.....Only thing keeping them there is the security of having a excellent free health cover.....Take that away they would have to up and leave, health insurance for elderly with existing health issues would be prohibitive.

Yes can see a lot of those living on the camp sites in places like Benidorm living the dream sold on prgeammes like Bargain Loving Brits in-the-Sun will be knackered 

[sPinwheel]

1 hour ago, Shea VanHaven said:

Law of unintended consequences.  Just read this to the end.

Firstly, l am engaged to an Italian girl.   (second time around and all that.)  I went to school with her. she came over to the UK in 1963 with her parents.  She was married to an English guy, has three twenty something children, all private schooled, and very "British."  She works for a huge Insurance company deep seated in London.  

One of my best mates is married to a Portuguese girl, (here twenty years,)have two young children- she is the manager of a building society.

There must be hundreds of thousands of cases like this, and by the large, these people are absolutely shitting themselves they will be "sent home."   Everybody I know says this will not happen, it's impossible to think it.

And then today on the BBC you read this;  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39099574   Woman deported despite 27 year marriage!

So-

IF the government decide to implement this across the board, where does it stop, and more interestingly, where does the "****** you I'm taking my family back to India, Pakistan, Caribbean, South Africa, Italy, Portugal,  Germany, France,   when exactly does people power take over, and become the unintentional consequence.   When everyone who is basically normalised turns around and says "****** you U.K."  ?

Because it could happen en masse. And if it does, there are going to be house price & wage level armageddons and all sorts of shit going down.

The one case I just linked to could embed itself in people's minds, and add to their growing fears, and tip the balance for them.  And being Auntie Beeb, they will start getting Nicky Campbell and others to flare this up and create even more tension uncertainty and unease.  Could have the airwaves awash with this in myriad call ins with people in similar situations if they choose to drive it.

Could be a real ****** up.   

Simple, you should have married a fat British lass instead.

[crashmonitor]

41 minutes ago, winkie said:

I think you will find that the majority of UK retires living in cheaper warm south Mediterranean moved there for the cheaper way of living and get by on basic state pensions and perhaps a little savings.....They most probably would have sold up in the UK and would have no chance of ever moving back and buying again or in many cases selling their foreign homes for what they paid for them.....Only thing keeping them there is the security of having a excellent free health cover.....Take that away they would have to up and leave, health insurance for elderly with existing health issues would be prohibitive.

Anyway most immigration into this country has come from outside the EU......Nothing will change that, more will still come.....We make the rules on what we pay in benefits and who we pay it to not the EU.

Immigration is not the reason why very many wanted out.

You miss the point that they are self funded; once they are no longer self funded they return home, they have to. Meanwhile a regular state pension is actually quite a sizeable asset, try buying an annuity at that level with inflation guarantees.

We basically take on the welfare guarantees of any inflow but the same courtesy is not extended to ourselves when abroad. As you say any that can't afford  healthcare, under EU exit, will have to return. Wont be the same here for foreign born nationals, it just wont. We have guaranteed residency for EU nationals already here, end of.

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by crashmonitor

[Funn3r]

Same here, I have friends from EU countries who have lived here 30+ years, some married to UK citizens, all got jobs or businesses whatever not on benefits. All now looking over their shoulders and wondering. Why should people who have made such fine contribution to our society be subjected to that level of stress?  

[winkie]

3 minutes ago, crashmonitor said:

You miss the point that they are self funded; once they are no longer self funded they return home, they have to. Meanwhile a regular state pension is actually quite a sizeable asset, try buying an annutiy at that level with inflation guarantees.

Yes they will have to return home but they will not be entitled to special treatment......No kids, no benefits, let's hope a basic state pension will pay the high extortionate UK rents.

[winkie]

3 minutes ago, Funn3r said:

Same here, I have friends from EU countries who have lived here 30+ years, some married to UK citizens, all got jobs or businesses whatever not on benefits. All now looking over their shoulders and wondering. Why should people who have made such fine contribution to our society be subjected to that level of stress?  

It is wrong..... thousands all over the UK and rest of Europe will be stressing over this......We want protectionism we will get it.

[crashmonitor]

1 hour ago, winkie said:

Yes they will have to return home but they will not be entitled to special treatment......No kids, no benefits, let's hope a basic state pension will pay the high extortionate UK rents.

Well once integrated back into the welfare system, probably after some qualification period, they would be entitled to full housing benefit.

My issue was not with them, but our generous welfare system that isn't reciprocated abroad. All EU migrants that stay here will get absorbed into our welfare system whether they can support themselves or not*. Trust me they will. Meanwhile any Brits in the Spain, that can't, absolutely they will be booted out with zero help.

 

* If they aren't that would be a change from what has occurred over the last sixty years or so, not just EU nationals but any nationality.

Edited February 27, 2017 by crashmonitor

[onlyme2]

18 minutes ago, crashmonitor said:

Well once integrated back into the welfare system, probably after some qualification period, they would be entitled to full housing benefit.

My issue was not with them, but our generous welfare system that isn't recipricated abroad. All EU migrants that stay here will get absorbed into our welfare system whether they can support themselves or not*. Trust me they will. Meanwhile any Brits in the Spain, that can't, absolutely they will be booted out with zero help.

 

* If they aren't that would be a change from what has occurred over the last sixty years or so.

Hundred's / thousands were milked in property scams across parts of Spain too - the legal system stood by, let gullible/trusting individuals buy nomes ready to be bulldozed. Felt playing field it has not been in many cases. 

There have been some pretty dirty scams going on leading to anything but a level playing field.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/insurance/travel/9960030/Holidaymakers-warned-as-Spain-blocks-EHIC-usage.html

Holidaymakers heading for Spain are being warned that hospitals and clinics are increasingly paying inducements and sweeteners to trap tourists with big bills for treatment. 

Tour operators, taxi drivers and even the police are offered backhanders for directing tourists to cash-strapped hospitals, according to insurers. 

These hospitals will refuse to accept European Health Insurance, or EHIC, cards, which provide treatment for free, leaving older travellers and those with pre-existing medical conditions particularly vulnerable. Instead, they are presented with hefty bills for their care.

[onlyme2]

Taking Spain example again, the country are reimbursed a sum for expat retiree healthcare. Workers paying tax get coverage. You could argue though that retirees are spending and contributing in all other taxes paid so it is a pretty good deal for the Spanish (if they have enough suitable housing spare).

http://www.thelocal.es/20161004/spain-britain-pay-expat-healthcare-brexit

At present, British citizens can use Spanish health services on the same basis as Spaniards. Britons working in Spain and paying into the social insurance system have the cost covered by Spain, but many others such as pensioners have the costs reimbursed by Britain under EU agreements. The cost of this to Britain was £223 million in 2014-15.

[sPinwheel]

5 minutes ago, onlyme2 said:

Taking Spain example again, the country are reimbursed a sum for expat retiree healthcare. Workers paying tax get coverage. You could argue though that retirees are spending and contributing in all other taxes paid so it is a pretty good deal for the Spanish (if they have enough suitable housing spare).

http://www.thelocal.es/20161004/spain-britain-pay-expat-healthcare-brexit

At present, British citizens can use Spanish health services on the same basis as Spaniards. Britons working in Spain and paying into the social insurance system have the cost covered by Spain, but many others such as pensioners have the costs reimbursed by Britain under EU agreements. The cost of this to Britain was £223 million in 2014-15.

We pay for OAPs abroad? Why are my taxes being used for this nonsesne, they are supposed to have high net worth. They should be paying for themselves...

Edited February 27, 2017 by sPinwheel

[onlyme2]

9 minutes ago, sPinwheel said:

We pay for OAPs abroad? Why are my taxes being used for this nonsesne, they are supposed to have high net worth. They should be paying for themselves...

Well the argument is that have they paid into the system all their lives - which is fine as far as it goes.

As long as it is reciprocated.

Then there is the issue that if services are crumbling at home how does that equate?

The suspicion is that time and again we have been taken for mugs and there isn't any true reciprocation in a lot of cases.

[spyguy]

2 hours ago, crashmonitor said:

There's no free housing, health and a minimum income guarantee at the end of the Rainbow in Singapore.

They probably could stay, but where's the free package.

So, a 53 YO woman, who's only lived in the UK for ~2 years suddenly wants t move in with her husband, hwo has also been living outside of he UK. Just when the husband becomes ill.

If neither have recourse to benefits and have private health insurance Im OK with them coming back.

This story has so much BS.

[spyguy]

26 minutes ago, onlyme2 said:

Well the argument is that have they paid into the system all their lives - which is fine as far as it goes.

As long as it is reciprocated.

Then there is the issue that if services are crumbling at home how does that equate?

The suspicion is that time and again we have been taken for mugs and there isn't any true reciprocation in a lot of cases.

Spain, like most EU countries already has a health insuance system in place.

They check you have it - if you are Spanish or EUer- and bill whoevers carrying the tab.

Our (great) NHS is clueless. It should be billing other European health systems for treatments but it is so useless that it cannot shift itself to recover the necessary cash to support all these EUers.

There's no point banging on about NHS spending when it does not move to get money its owed FFS.

 

[EUBanana]

4 hours ago, Shea VanHaven said:

Law of unintended consequences.  Just read this to the end.

Firstly, l am engaged to an Italian girl.   (second time around and all that.)  I went to school with her. she came over to the UK in 1963 with her parents.  She was married to an English guy, has three twenty something children, all private schooled, and very "British."  She works for a huge Insurance company deep seated in London.  

One of my best mates is married to a Portuguese girl, (here twenty years,)have two young children- she is the manager of a building society.

There must be hundreds of thousands of cases like this, and by the large, these people are absolutely shitting themselves they will be "sent home."   Everybody I know says this will not happen, it's impossible to think it.

And then today on the BBC you read this;  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39099574   Woman deported despite 27 year marriage!

So-

IF the government decide to implement this across the board, where does it stop, and more interestingly, where does the "****** you I'm taking my family back to India, Pakistan, Caribbean, South Africa, Italy, Portugal,  Germany, France,   when exactly does people power take over, and become the unintentional consequence.   When everyone who is basically normalised turns around and says "****** you U.K."  ?

Because it could happen en masse. And if it does, there are going to be house price & wage level armageddons and all sorts of shit going down.

The one case I just linked to could embed itself in people's minds, and add to their growing fears, and tip the balance for them.  And being Auntie Beeb, they will start getting Nicky Campbell and others to flare this up and create even more tension uncertainty and unease.  Could have the airwaves awash with this in myriad call ins with people in similar situations if they choose to drive it.

Could be a real ****** up.   

I'm married to a Slovak.  She's been here for longer than Slovakia was is in the EU, effectively a non-EU migrant.

She had British citizenship within about 5 years.

I honestly don't understand how these people can have a problem.

[onlyme2]

2 minutes ago, satch said:

They have paid in, but the £100 spent in the UK would generate VAT and indirectly pay income tax and NI for people employed in shops etc when the money is spent. In Spain the money (vat, taxes etc) goes to the Spanish government.

Yes, made the point about all the other expenditure and taxes being accumulated in Spain in another post, they get the better deal by far under the terms. 

In reality the NI contributions are not ring-fenced nor sufficient to provide forward expenditure on health and all other associated benefits notionally linked to NI. It is just another tax.

 

[crashmonitor]

25 minutes ago, onlyme2 said:

Yes, made the point about all the other expenditure and taxes being accumulated in Spain in another post, they get the better deal by far under the terms. 

In reality the NI contributions are not ring-fenced nor sufficient to provide forward expenditure on health and all other associated benefits notionally linked to NI. It is just another tax.

 

Nope but all migration accountancy benefits to the Exchequer are done on an actual year basis assuming a migrant workforce stays young forever. The accruing welfare liabilities for all these access level jobs that Brits don't  do or don't  want to fill is simply horrendous. As usual short termist politicians wanting jam today running the show. They also ignore displacement of indigenous workers to unemployed status.

Edited February 27, 2017 by crashmonitor