Parking fine - seeking HPC wisdom

[LiveinHope]

I received a parking fine, that I appealed and lost.  I've no intention to pay as I consider the fine unfair - I paid, left before the time expired, but the machine didn't issue a receipt.

So,

The last letter I received from the parking company said the following:
 

Quote

A payment of £100.00 must now be made by 19th January 2017.

If we do not receive payment by this date, we will instruct our solicitor to commence court proceedings against you and additional costs will be incurred. The decision of the independent adjudicator will form part of our case in these court proceedings.

Fine I thought, I'm happy for that process to occur and so I didn't pay the £100 fine.

However, the parking company didn't instruct their solicitor to commence court proceedings  against me but instead sold on the debt, as on the 27th January I received a letter from a debt collection service demanding £172.00; the original £100.00 fine + £72.00 debt collection fees.

Now, I know that parking companies often sell unpaid fines to debt collection services, but that is not the action the parking company said they would take, and by doing differently they have incurred me in unexpected fees.

(The Debt collection agency say they will instruct solicitors and take me to court if I do not pay the £172.00 - but they are not the parking company, so it's not the parking company taking me to court.)

Does the collective HPC mind think I'm right to think the parking company has dug a hole for itself and I can i) ignore the £72 debt collection fees and ii) dispute their process successfully ?

Ta, and all the best

 

 

 

 

 

[davidg]

A solicitor writes: "The creditor is not bound by his original letter, he is entitled to change his mind and take other action".

[One-percent]

I'm not really sure but think,that there is a site called pepipoo http://www.pepipoo.com/ here, who focus solely on this.  

But, I don't think it is a fine unless it is issued by the council (I might be completely wrong) and can they set the rottwillers on you if it has not gone through the courts? 

[workingpoor]

Apparently only councils can issue  enforcable parking fines (and wheel clamps) and you can ignore any private parking / debt collection s*um. 

But i think there may have been test cases where people lost and had to pay.

[LiveinHope]

14 minutes ago, davidg said:

A solicitor writes: "The creditor is not bound by his original letter, he is entitled to change his mind and take other action".

Thanks

Should I be advised of a change in mind and action if it incurs me in different and unexpected costs ?

[The Masked Tulip]

You should read the info here:

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets

It saved me paying a fee issued by a private firm in a Swansea car park. They had no right. But some firms do have a right. The ones that do usually hand the fee collection over to a debt collection firm.

[LiveinHope]

12 minutes ago, The Masked Tulip said:

You should read the info here:

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets

It saved me paying a fee issued by a private firm in a Swansea car park. They had no right. But some firms do have a right. The ones that do usually hand the fee collection over to a debt collection firm.

Ta

It's a frustrating fine. The machine wouldn't accept my money, it kept dropping through, took over 10 minutes to pay. It then did accept the money and I left before the time expired. The parking company will only look at the first 10 minutes of the machine's record after I was photographed entering and so they say I didn't pay to park at all. They refuse to look for the duration of the time I was there, rejected my appeal and racked up the fees.

 

[Rave]

There's loads of info on Pepipoo, would suggest you have a good read there.

But if you were happy to go to court before, you should presumably be happy to go to court still? The fact that it's a different bunch threatening you with court action makes no difference to the facts of the case, nor will it (I imagine) make any difference to the judge when they are awarding damages/costs either way.

[OnionTerror]

If its a private parking company, such as UK Parking to tell them to jog on, unless you're summoned to court.  I got one in the middle of last year, I put in a reasonable cancellation request, as my car should be on their database (its a work car park), but they totally ignored it, and carried on.  In December, I got a letter from a debt collector, requesting money.

Typically the "debt collector" will issue an invoice - so its a "please can we have your money"....

If its someone like that, you can ignore them, and ignore them, until you get a summons.  The only trouble is that they might not give up for up to 6 years..

[gaztastic]

This is slightly left field but may be of interest. I've recently moved out of a rented house in Plymouth. When I first moved in, some 4.5 years ago, I got an absolute mail storm of debt collection agency letter for various previous tenants of the house. After a bit of detective work, I discovered there were 5 people that were being chased up for various non-payments. When I went to view the house, the then-tenants were a husband and wife with two young kids, so I can only assume the other people being chased were even more previous tenants. 

In the whole of the time I lived in the house, there were no bailiffs visits and, over time, the debt collection letters dried up. In some cases they were replaced with new letters from different agencies but, by the time I left, there were no letters coming.

[LiveinHope]

25 minutes ago, Rave said:

There's loads of info on Pepipoo, would suggest you have a good read there.

But if you were happy to go to court before, you should presumably be happy to go to court still? The fact that it's a different bunch threatening you with court action makes no difference to the facts of the case, nor will it (I imagine) make any difference to the judge when they are awarding damages/costs either way.

Quite true

But as I'm sure as others have experienced, and as Pepipoo attests, it's a very bullying and intimidatory process to maintain resolve against.

[Rave]

1 hour ago, gaztastic said:

This is slightly left field but may be of interest. I've recently moved out of a rented house in Plymouth. When I first moved in, some 4.5 years ago, I got an absolute mail storm of debt collection agency letter for various previous tenants of the house. After a bit of detective work, I discovered there were 5 people that were being chased up for various non-payments. When I went to view the house, the then-tenants were a husband and wife with two young kids, so I can only assume the other people being chased were even more previous tenants. 

In the whole of the time I lived in the house, there were no bailiffs visits and, over time, the debt collection letters dried up. In some cases they were replaced with new letters from different agencies but, by the time I left, there were no letters coming.

We had similar when we moved into our last rented house in 2006. The only bailiff that ever showed up was one from the council chasing unpaid council tax. I wasn't there, but according to my wife she told him that we were not the people he was after, and showed him some ID, and he thanked her and left. I put all the other letters in the post box with 'please return to sender' on them and they dried up after a year or so.

[Exiled Canadian]

1 hour ago, LiveinHope said:

Ta

It's a frustrating fine. The machine wouldn't accept my money, it kept dropping through, took over 10 minutes to pay. It then did accept the money and I left before the time expired. The parking company will only look at the first 10 minutes of the machine's record after I was photographed entering and so they say I didn't pay to park at all. They refuse to look for the duration of the time I was there, rejected my appeal and racked up the fees.

 

I think that you've got a pretty strong case there.  Their refusal to examine more than the first ten minutes of the CCTV when your defence could be proven/disproven by examining more of the tape strikes me as unreasonable, particularly as the delay was apparently caused by their defective machine (have they contested that the machine was defective btw) - I can't imagine that they'll want to go to the expense of going to court as their case looks a bit flimsy.  I'm no lawyer however........ 

[Rave]

53 minutes ago, LiveinHope said:

Quite true

But as I'm sure as others have experienced, and as Pepipoo attests, it's a very bullying and intimidatory process to maintain resolve against.

True enough, but I wouldn't worry. Last year my brother borrowed my car and managed to get a ticket from one of these companies for parking outside of the marked bays (but without causing any obstruction). I went on Pepipoo, found that the company concerned apparently never follow up, and so I ignored it, and haven't heard anything further.

I once challenged a council parking ticket- I parked in a car park at 6pm (free parking was from 6.30pm) and got back to find a parking attendant taking photos of the car. I said nothing to him, he said nothing to me, and so I got in the car and drove off. 5 weeks later we got a demand for £80 as apparently we'd not paid the ticket. I appealed, asking for the parking attendant's notes; they rejected the appeal and sent me a copy and he'd written on them 'HTD', an abbreviation for 'Handed To Driver', which was clearly a lie. I appealed to PATAS, and went up to their office in Angel with my mum (whose car it was). The guy read through my appeal letter detailing the above, then started with a spiel about how if I were to not tell the truth to him that would be an offence equivalent to perjury in a court. I cut him off short with a 'yeah yeah'. He looked at me and said "I'll say that again" and repeated the spiel in full. I looked him in the eye and said "I understand that, yes".

"In that case", he replied, "I'm going to allow the appeal". That took the wind out of my sails a bit as I was fully wound up to deliver a long rant about the mendacity of the parking attendant and the inefficiency of the council, etc. His typed up notes were along the lines of "The Appelant does not deny the offence but I see no good evidence that the ticket was properly served".

[SNACR]

Courts usually don't look favourably on debt collection agencies so in the unlikely event the debt agency issue a court claim provided you turn up in court it will be extremely unlikely to go their way. 

[The XYY Man]

The debt collection agency buys debt at ten pence in the pound.

They will try to frighten you into paying more than the original debt. That's how these petty thugs get rich. Don't pay them anything.

Offer them nothing, pay them nothing, and do not speak or communicate with them at all - other than to ask for strict proof of the debt that would be accepted in a court. Make no admission of the debt, and if you write to them - make sure your letters contain the phrase WITHOUT PREJUDICE somewhere after your address and before "Dear Sir" on the letter.

They have no proof of the debt - and they will not go anywhere near a court.They will just continue to try and frighten you into paying.

They might hassle you for up to six years - the point at which all UK debts are expired - but if you stick to your guns and admit nothing, they will give-up in the end. (There is an argument that mortgage debts last for twelve years, but that has never been tested in court)

Never give-in to these parasitic bastads - you will not lose as they have no case that a UK court will uphold - unless you are dumb enough to admit you owe the debt. Don't EVER do that.

Ask for proof of the debt, and say nothing else. They will cave-in, and continue to chase the idiots who pay them twenty times what they bought the debt for.

Only court-sanctioned bailiffs can turn-up and take your goods - these clowns chasing you cannot EVER do that, but they will pretend they can, and their letters will suggest they are going to.

Trust me, they won't.ever, under ANY circumstances.

 

XYY

                                                                                                               

The dog's kennel is not the place to keep a sausage - Danish proverb

[Automotive Engineer]

4 hours ago, One-percent said:

I'm not really sure but think,that there is a site called pepipoo http://www.pepipoo.com/ here, who focus solely on this.  

But, I don't think it is a fine unless it is issued by the council (I might be completely wrong) and can they set the rottwillers on you if it has not gone through the courts? 

I had afine and challenged it through this forum. Personally, since I move house every 12 months, and oft forget to update my records, I might be tempted to ignore the whole thing and let these morrons chase me theought the nation.

[200p]

^ I wondered who'd be first with that avatar. lol

[LiveinHope]

2 hours ago, The XYY Man said:

SNIP

They will try to frighten you into paying more than the original debt. That's how these petty thugs get rich. Don't pay them anything.

SNIP

 

Never give-in to these parasitic bastads

My view entirely. Although you were quite polite about these people that I see as a scourge upon society.

I do know that a case is currently being made to Trading Standards by Citizens Advice about the practices and punitive fees of parking companies in general. Little help to those in the system already, however.

I can only hope that the days of these dreadful companies are numbered, and that subsequently, the owners find themselves at the bottom of life's scrapheap - I'd take great pleasure in that.

[canbuywontbuy]

These companies are a joke - paper tigers.  Don't pay. 

In fact, where did you get the parking ticket? If it was a retail park, then kick up a fuss about that retail park - give them bad publicity online.  Make THEM pay for their bu11shit.  Don't react, act.

 

 

[SarahBell]

9 hours ago, LiveinHope said:

Ta

It's a frustrating fine. The machine wouldn't accept my money, it kept dropping through, took over 10 minutes to pay. It then did accept the money and I left before the time expired. The parking company will only look at the first 10 minutes of the machine's record after I was photographed entering and so they say I didn't pay to park at all. They refuse to look for the duration of the time I was there, rejected my appeal and racked up the fees.

 

They will be registered with ICO so ask them for a copy of your data (CCTV) for the entire duration of your visit.

[LiveinHope]

27 minutes ago, SarahBell said:

They will be registered with ICO so ask them for a copy of your data (CCTV) for the entire duration of your visit.

Thanks - I'll try to find out. although I don't think they have CCTV coverage - You are just photographed entering and leaving. They know I was there for 45 minutes and the machine has no record of my payment and registration being entered during the first 10 of those minutes, so they contend I didn't pay at all. I asked them and the POPLA appeal to look at the full time I was there but they ignored those requests, POPLA who are a joke / sham, simply said they were satisfied that the parking company had 'looked' sufficiently, that I didn't pay to park, and so my appeal was rejected. The whole thing from parking company to POPLA to debt collection is a cartel.

There is so much wrong about the UK - how did it ever get like this ? It really feels like I'm in the 'squeezed middle' - although I hate the phrase for its origination, wasn't it coined by dreadful Ed ?

 

[spunko2010]

Poor advice so far except for XYY Mans post. If it's **********, which seems unlikely given they've sold the debt, fight it using Pepipoo. A bit late now they've sold it regardless. 

 

 So don't open the debt collection letters and return to sender. It isn't a debt by the way, it's a request for payment. Ignore and move on. 

 

Interesting that the company p4rking 3ye has been blocked out. They are sharks and probably threatened fubra. Do your research. 

[ChumpusRex]

12 hours ago, workingpoor said:

Apparently only councils can issue  enforcable parking fines (and wheel clamps) and you can ignore any private parking / debt collection s*um. 

But i think there may have been test cases where people lost and had to pay.

Private invoices for breach of contract fees for private parking are enforceable. This has been all the way up to the supreme court, and the case law is clear. A correctly issued invoice for breaching a parking contract is enforceable.

It is therefore important not to just tell the parking company to sod off. However, there are numerous legal complexities in correctly issuing an invoice, which allows invoices to be disputed in a good proportion of cases, even in the absence of an obvious reason for dispute (such as payment having already been made).

As stated elsewhere, it's worth asking at a forum which specialises in this type of advice - pepipoo, or MSE are particularly good.

[longtomsilver]

Just now, SarahBell said:

They will be registered with ICO so ask them for a copy of your data (CCTV) for the entire duration of your visit.

I've got a case that's just been opened with the ICO and the outcome should be interesting. 

Long and short is that I visited a Taylor Wimpey sales office (half on a whim) looking, maybe, to buy a two bed **** box not because they are excellent value but the debt could be written off over 5 years from surplus income. When I drove onto the site, two of the three spaces available had been taken by one poorly parked cheap BMW convertible, and a works van meant that there was a fag papers of separation between my drivers door and that of the other car so I had to climb across and exit the passenger side. I took a photo in case the other driver came back and knocked my car. It turned out the car belonged to the Sales Woman who came storming out and asked if there was a problem to which I politely said that there wasn't, it was a lease car and I'd be loathe to see third party damage that I couldn't seek redress from. She snapped that she owned her car and I replied that was very nice (to own not the car itself). I declined a brochure telling her I could find the information on-line to which she retorted "well, that's your perogative" and all I said in reply was that what she just said wasn't very professional and that she was perhaps the worst person to consider an occupation in sales.... I sat down at the negotiation table and asked to see her manager/the site manager - at which point she presses a button on her lanyard that links through to an emergency line telling the operator that she feels threatened. He reassures her that the incident is being recorded and then she summons the site manager who comes in screaming at me with fists. All the time I was sat down and did laugh occasionally in disbelief. They ask me to leave and I do but then followed this up with the police who reviewed and decided no crime had been commited. Clearly I WAN'T THE TAPES and CCTV for myour own personal use and as yet (2 months) they have not been forthcoming despite promises from the regional MD who I guessed was hoping the problem (me) would just go away. There may be some reluctance to part with the audio recordings as the site manager escorted me to my car - I had to keep pace for him not to physically touch me and as I went for my (passenger) door he shouted that I was lucky he didn't put my head through the ****ing window. That will be gold when they comply with the request.they have until the 24th February to comply (officially).

Sad reality is that I am one of few people that could afford and afford to pay over the odds. They lost any chance of a sale and I have my webpage bought in readiness for the bloopers t ..w review co uk I just need the tapes

It really deserves a thread of it's own.

 

** yes the police really did follow this incident up, pulling up outside my house in a marked police car and knocking on our door and speaking to mrsLTS while I was at work. Humiliating to say the least.

I'll be doing an FOI request with the police and see what statements were made and reopen if they don't reflect honestly what actually  (recordedly) happened and have the incident crimed with myself as the Injured Party.