workingpoor Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 (edited) http://www.scotsman.com/news/type-26-delay-called-an-absolute-disgrace-after-mod-admission-1-4182385 Nationalist politicians and shipbuilding unions have reacted furiously after the Ministry of Defence admitted there is no start date for the new Type 26 frigate fleet to be built on the Clyde. There be layoff's i tell thee Edited July 21, 2016 by workingpoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bora Horza Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said the admission was a “disgraceful betrayal” of shipyard workers after it was made at a meeting of the House of Commons defence select committee. And if Scotland was independent then none of them would being built on the Clyde. Bit of a non-story no? Delayed because the design isn't yet completed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workingpoor Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 (edited) And if Scotland was independent then none of them would being built on the Clyde. Bit of a non-story no? Delayed because the design isn't yet completed. Well steelcutting was supposed to start this year, according to media reports, the Clyde yards have been thrown an OPV here and there to keep them ticking over since jan 2014. This looks like there will be no start on the T26's until well into the 2020's. I'm not convinced they will ever get started. Edited July 21, 2016 by workingpoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bora Horza Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 The type-23s will need to replaced eventually, what do you think they'll do instead if the type-26s aren't built? Buy a US ship off-the-shelf? From what I've read elsewhere there seemed to be some expectations that the type-26 design could have good export potential. Aimed to be a modern leander class export success? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workingpoor Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 (edited) The type-23s will need to replaced eventually, what do you think they'll do instead if the type-26s aren't built? Buy a US ship off-the-shelf? From what I've read elsewhere there seemed to be some expectations that the type-26 design could have good export potential. Aimed to be a modern leander class export success? Buy the proven FREMME Frigate off the shelf from Italy / France. No exports from UK (too expensive) Edited July 21, 2016 by workingpoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 http://www.scotsman.com/news/type-26-delay-called-an-absolute-disgrace-after-mod-admission-1-4182385 Nationalist politicians and shipbuilding unions have reacted furiously after the Ministry of Defence admitted there is no start date for the new Type 26 frigate fleet to be built on the Clyde. There be layoff's i tell thee Why are they talking about building them on the Clyde at all? Time to prepare for Scottish independence and move all that to Devonport or something, rather than being caught pants down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantic Purple Slug Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 At some point Sturgeon has got to realise she can't have her cake and eat it. No union=no union jobs. My guess is that they will be too busy cutting holes in the side of the Type 45 for a while to worry about the Type 26. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bora Horza Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Buy the proven FREMME Frigate off the shelf from Italy / France. No exports from UK (too expensive) I really hope you're wrong there, although sadly I suspect our politicians really are that short-sighted. Anyone else think that the classification of Royal Navy ships has become misleading? Type 45 is officially a destroyer but is large enough to be cruiser Type 26 is officially a frigate but is large enough to be a destroyer The type 26 “frigate” has an estimated displacement of 6900T The previous generations type 42 destroyer had a displacement of just over 5000T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer466 Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 http://www.scotsman.com/news/type-26-delay-called-an-absolute-disgrace-after-mod-admission-1-4182385 Nationalist politicians and shipbuilding unions have reacted furiously after the Ministry of Defence admitted there is no start date for the new Type 26 frigate fleet to be built on the Clyde. There be layoff's i tell thee The SNP "government" is nothing more than some kids sitting in dad's car going "vroom vroom" as they think they're racing drivers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I really hope you're wrong there, although sadly I suspect our politicians really are that short-sighted. Anyone else think that the classification of Royal Navy ships has become misleading? Type 45 is officially a destroyer but is large enough to be cruiser Type 26 is officially a frigate but is large enough to be a destroyer The type 26 “frigate” has an estimated displacement of 6900T The previous generations type 42 destroyer had a displacement of just over 5000T Definitions change with time. After all our "frigates" aren't three-masted, sail-powered with at least 28 guns on a single deck but too small to stand in the line of battle. Current RN usage seems to be "frigate" for a ship with a more anti-submarine role and "destroyer" for anti-air (and not for attacking torpedo boats, which is the origin of "destroyer", from "torpedo boat destroyer"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Why doesn't Scotland build them and then lease them to the total navy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 (edited) Why doesn't Scotland build them and then lease them to the total navy? Because it's too expensive Taxpayers will foot the bill to fix £1bn warships that break down in Persian Gulf because ships are 'out of warranty' Taxpayers will have to foot the bill to refit warships that break down in the Persian Gulf when the water becomes too warm, because they are ‘out of warranty’. The Ministry of Defence said the ‘arduous’ conditions that made the £1billion Type 45 Destroyers ‘degrade catastrophically’ were not covered by the guarantee. Engines on the six warships fail because the intercooler units, which reduce heat from the exhaust, slow down in warm waters, leaving the engine unable to generate enough power. Edited July 21, 2016 by rollover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bora Horza Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Definitions change with time. After all our "frigates" aren't three-masted, sail-powered with at least 28 guns on a single deck but too small to stand in the line of battle. Current RN usage seems to be "frigate" for a ship with a more anti-submarine role and "destroyer" for anti-air (and not for attacking torpedo boats, which is the origin of "destroyer", from "torpedo boat destroyer"). If anything, given automation and reduced crews, shouldn't ships be getting smaller? I suspect this is more to do with politics. Last generation, 12 destroyers, no cruisers. New generation build six cruisers, pretend they are destroyers and claim the fleet has halved. Makes it easier to defend RN budget. Maybe I'm becoming too cynical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workingpoor Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 Which countries are likely to place an export order with a UK Shipyard for Naval Vessels? They all want to build their own in house for jobs / economic boost etc etc. Or have the Hulls built in Korea on the cheap and do the outfitting themselves. See the RFA M.A.R.S refuelling tanker contract placed with Daewoo Korea by the MOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bora Horza Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 Not sure if this is confirmed or not: Type-26 Frigates cut from 13 vessels to 8. A new cheaper/smaller type-31 to be designed, with 5 planned to be constructed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 Not sure if this is confirmed or not: Type-26 Frigates cut from 13 vessels to 8. A new cheaper/smaller type-31 to be designed, with 5 planned to be constructed. It was always going to be 8 anti-submarine t26, then another 5 frigates based on the same hull. It now looks like the additional 5 will be 'something else'. Lots of talk about the BMT Venator, which is about 1/2 the displacement of the T26 - so should be cheaper to build, as well as lower manning costs etc. I think it makes sense - the T26 is a 'big' frigate and a set of smaller frigates would expand capability (eg, the smaller ship could work in shallower waters, allowing a littoral role). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 Why all the firepower if there is not big war? Or is one being planned for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 Why all the firepower if there is not big war? Or is one being planned for? I think this is a good point - a number of smaller frigates would make more sense from a maritime-security point of view. The type 26 is almost as big as a destroyer, and you don't really need them outside of a war. Other than that - your comment could describe the majority of any country's armed forces - you don't support them for today's needs, but what you fear tomorrow's needs might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 (edited) I think this is a good point - a number of smaller frigates would make more sense from a maritime-security point of view. The type 26 is almost as big as a destroyer, and you don't really need them outside of a war. Other than that - your comment could describe the majority of any country's armed forces - you don't support them for today's needs, but what you fear tomorrow's needs might be. Why you or anyone else need the needs? And the fear factor? Once you build them, you will not leave them to rust. The huge cost have to be justified. Edited August 7, 2016 by rollover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 Why you or anyone else need the needs? And the fear factor? Once you build them, you will not leave them to rust. The huge cost have to be justified. That argument might be true for the USA, Russia, China, etc. But Britain's armed forces are now too small to be thought of in that way. There's barely enough RN to cope with a bit of contribution to anti-piracy and drugs type operations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bora Horza Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 That argument might be true for the USA, Russia, China, etc. But Britain's armed forces are now too small to be thought of in that way. There's barely enough RN to cope with a bit of contribution to anti-piracy and drugs type operations. I'm sure the equipment and organisation of the UK's armed forces has its flaws, and it probably is underfunded given our commitments. However is your comment really true or is just one of those “we're shit” memes that seem to be common in the UK? Out of the 195ish countries: UK military spending comes 5th UK has 8 destroyers, yes much less than USA/China but only 13 countries in the world are able to field destroyer level ships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bora Horza Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 Why all the firepower if there is not big war? Or is one being planned for? Because no one knows what the future holds and it's best to be prepared. Having a strong military adds a lot to our bargaining power too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 What we are likely to need is more inshore patrol vessels to turn back refugees in ribs. Not very glam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Barlow Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 That argument might be true for the USA, Russia, China, etc. But Britain's armed forces are now too small to be thought of in that way. There's barely enough RN to cope with a bit of contribution to anti-piracy and drugs type operations. We don't need Type 45 / Type 26 vessels for anti piracy / drug operations. Might as well build half a dozen of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt-class_destroyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 http://www.scotsman.com/news/type-26-delay-called-an-absolute-disgrace-after-mod-admission-1-4182385 Nationalist politicians and shipbuilding unions have reacted furiously after the Ministry of Defence admitted there is no start date for the new Type 26 frigate fleet to be built on the Clyde. There be layoff's i tell thee Great, they can get into BTL now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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