University Bubble Making Hissing Sounds

[Sancho Panza]

 

On 14/07/2017 at 9:17 PM, chicker said:

HPC is a wonderful source of information and I salute all posters . Your anecdotal re your brother is what I'm witnessing as friends sons/daughters post uni are scraping around for any sort of work. No one in my family has ever been to a proper university and my bright daughter is soon to make university choices . My advice is Russell Group or think outside the box. A 2.2 from a so so uni is woth F all . Am I being too harsh ?

 

 

 

I've a friend who's reasonably high up in a utility company.Says they regularly get straight A students applying for their apprenticeship programmes.Get paid to study....................

On 14/07/2017 at 10:08 PM, thisisthisitmaybe said:

To be an academic these days undoubtedly you have to be super-dedicated, and willing to put in long hours. That's why I left after the PhD, as I don't have the work ethic (I don't think I've ever truly worked a 50 hour week, let alone a 70 hour one) and I could only see the pressures on academics ramping up, particularly in regards to research funding. My girlfriend at the time was doing a science PhD and she worked twice as hard as I did, although I did have to take it a lot more seriously in the third year when the funding was running out. 

One of my best friends has stayed in academia, he is a very well organised workaholic, and has done very well for himself, making Professor in his early 40s. 

I remember one of the lecuturer posers on here-think it was the ayatollah-saying that they often get Phd students to take humanities lectures.

On 14/07/2017 at 10:37 PM, chicker said:

 

The country will accept the the staus quo only if the achievers achieve. If they fall by the wayside what's the hope for the also rans ? With talented immigrants the average Brit is under attack in the job market . Full employment for many years was the main stay of each party manifesto The £1 poms was soon  followed by  a campaign to get cheap empire labour here. Its as irrational as Brexit . But hey Henry VIII started it with C of E . We will cut off our nose to smite our face ,

That's quite true I think.Mrs P is first gen and her workplace-big blue chip-employs a lot of foreign talent.Also there's  been a substantial brain drain from places like Italy,Spain and Greece.When you come from a poor country there's a different dynamic goes on when you get an oppurtunity.

Incomes for young people across the board are quite poor.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/inequality-income-disparity-richest-1-under-35s-resolution-foundation-a7842351.html

'under-35s are the only group that have not seen their incomes rise to pre-crisis levels and instead have found themselves frozen out of home ownership by low wages. '

On 14/07/2017 at 10:42 PM, debtlessmanc said:

Indeed that is the illogic of if all. Our country can sustainably support around 30m people. Our solution? Grow the population by around 0.5M a year! 

Also you art right- all popular revolutions In history have happened not because the proles have suffered, but because the bourgeois have suffered as they are beginning too here. I suspect what will happen is that corbyn or someone like him will get elected and the country will go full on Venezuela. Meanwhile I'll be asking my mate in Canada for a job...any job...

 The middle class has been increasingly squeezed,wages,pensions,house prices.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Sancho Panza

[Sancho Panza]

9 hours ago, thisisthisitmaybe said:

Recent article by a higher ed insider here.

The writer argues that the boom days are over, and a crisis is around the corner. 

I think that crisis has already arrived. 

The issue is Value. Is a degree worth the money it costs? In two thirds of cases, I think the answer is no.

Higher education has become a monster, and the introduction of 9k tuition fees is responsible for turning the sector into a bubble over the last five years. 

So the questions your pre-uni kids need to ask: a) is a degree worth it and b( if I choose to go to uni, will that uni still be in business when I'm supposed to graduate.

That was a brilliant read.Thanks for posting.

Some highlights-to me anyway.

'  If expansion creates ever-more innovative entrepreneurs who transform the economy, then it is hard to imagine investing too much in it. But if the chief effect is to raise the qualification barrier to a job in back-office accounts, then expansion might already be out of hand. No such analysis has, until now, played a major role in our policy-making. If we just continue with higher education business as usual, we risk taking large sums of money from many people for little reward, while for no good reason depriving others, who lack the right piece of paper, of opportunities.

At the London School of Economics, 44 per cent of students are international: it’s 35 per cent at UCL, 27 per cent in Edinburgh. That plummets to 10 per cent in Northumbria or Lincoln, and just 3 per cent in the universities of Staffordshire or Gloucestershire.

Around one in three graduates, meanwhile, now do jobs which are clearly “non-graduate” in their content and demands.

Yet there are universities in England where average graduate earnings are no higher than those for non-graduates. New official data released in June underlined the huge differentials across institutions, which closely mirror their prestige. As a subject, economics is one of the top “earners.” But for economics graduates of the University of Central Lancashire, median earnings five years out are just £18,900 (or almost £10,000 below full-time median adult earnings). At Essex, they can expect £34,000. But LSE economics graduates, five years into work, have a median salary of £55,200—and for the top quarter among them, it’s £120,000. This sort of detailed information simply reinforces the pressure to attend “top” universities, and intensifies the strain on those already struggling. From the student side of things, the promise that those super-sized debts are a fail-safe investment is looking decidedly dubious.'

[Sancho Panza]

5 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

I'm advising aspiring Vet aged 14 to do it through the grounding of a sponsored day a week from a job perspective.

I am 53, had a free education, the promise of index linked final salary pensions and affordable housing.  My kids have the promise of massive debt to begin life with, a lifetime of renting, no promise of a free at source healthcare and the high probability of no state pension, let alone a final salary index linked one.  I look to the HoC and see most of the folk the same age as me or older who voted to, literally, rob this younger generation in order to maintain power, by keeping an elderly generation happy.

I'd be very surprised if we didn't see kids on the streets rioting en masse within 5 years and, to be frank, I'd support them....

Great psot and a decent summation of the position.

5 hours ago, thisisthisitmaybe said:

The problem is grade inflation is making a lot of employers weary of degrees in the first place. We look at CVs at work, everybody has a 2.1 or a first from a Russell Group university. Everybody. Even Oxford gives out 3 times as many firsts as it did 25 years ago. 

So harder to get degrees could be a good thing.

We've started employing people at 18/19 now, which would have been unheard of five years ago. And other companies are increasing apprenticeships to try and get the top students fresh out of school rather than university. I think that could be transformative and end the higher ed cartel where people need to attend university just to get an entry-level job.

In terms of economising, I think universities should have started doing that after the financial crash, rather than going on a massive spending spree. It may be too late for some of them now. It's a shame as many academics are mid career and it isn't an easy profession to transfer out of.

That's been coming for a while.2:1 is the new 2:2

[chicker]

3 hours ago, Sancho Panza said:

Great psot and a decent summation of the position.

That's been coming for a while.2:1 is the new 2:2

In my life school leaving age has gone from 15 to 16 to 18. A couple of O levels in English and Maths in the 70s clearly showed you were numerate and literate.

At my fathers grammar the brightest in maths left early got a market stall and made a fortunate due to their mental arithmetic being spot on .Secondary moderns became comps, polys became unis .Personnel became HR. Now if you haven't got A levels you are the under class.

Maybe we are starting the road back to where we were in the 60/70s where the interview process includes tests , internal tutoring and mentoring returns and the traditional degree is side lined by business and the young as not being fit for purpose.

So lets change the uni/polys back to polys with business using them as a resource . Changing the mentality of the people  is a problem . How many parents will risk their precious childrens future by not  advising university ? Many years of government hard sell that university is best has to be undone and quickly.

Sounds like trying to tell people that house prices can go down..........

 

[Arbitrage]

17 hours ago, Sandwiches33 said:

Here is what my school done for me, make of it what you will....

Bullied by teachers, ******ing arseholes. So many angry failed adults. Rarely bullied by students, had a laugh and got on ok with most it was the adults who were a problem.

I was put in the special class for dumb kids and was sat next to a teenager who spent all day sniffing glue. The other ones told teachers to ****** off or were just as dumb as rocks. We were the kids who required "special" attention apparently.

I was deliberatley blocked for certain subjects and told they were a waste of time as I was stupid. No it wasnt modern dance it was computing! I was told I should focus on getting a  job in the local supermarket. I said what about some sort of computing job in a bank and they derided me saying noone like me could ever get in a bank to do that.

I had a real drive to learn a certain area of computing so the blocked me from after school computing classes and told me I shouldnt aspire to that sort of work as I wasnt bright enough. I was also told computing was a waste of time even as a kid back in the early eighties i knew this was a ******ing stupid statement.

Luckily I ignored them and stuck to my path however I always assumed I was maybe a bit below average. Maybe limiting what i should do.  I took up a path of teaching myself I burned through books on my own as a  teenager.

many many years later I had a brain problem and was looking at a possible tumour. I was tested the full run with the psychologist, IQ creativity intelligence the whole bit under proper conditions not an internet IQ test.

He said to me " your intelligence is genius level,IQ( wont say) and you also completed all the tests faster than anyone I have ever tested by a large margin"

 

You can imagine my shock. My whole life i thought i was a bit of a thick chancer, i didnt study for any of my exams and just scraped passes.

Now i know my posts on here are far from genius and I think many on here are smarter than me and  am certainly  not blowing my own trumpet but school failed me in a big way. Not just failed me but activley sought to block me from what i wanted to dol.  If I hadnt decided they were all ***** and ignored them I may be working in tesco now. I really wonder how many kids were in the same boat as me? maybe listened to them? maybe arent doing what they need to.

School can ****** right off, apart form the very occassional teacher it crushes kids and ruins dreams. It also seems now obssessed with promoting cultural marxism and victimhood. I think its time we done something better as it seems like such a waste of time. i was there for my whole youth! I could read and write before i went ( debatable now if you read my posts) and everything else is self taught.What really was the point in me going?

I also feel bad for the few teachers who care becuase they are the only thing that made a difference everything else is ********. If it wasnt for them it is essentially just child day prison.

You are right about schools promoting cultural Marxism

Kids are taught that you must ALWAYS look up to government and any other form of authority

Most teachers are PC authoritarians, who don't respond well to true diversity of opinion

[Arbitrage]

2 hours ago, chicker said:

In my life school leaving age has gone from 15 to 16 to 18. A couple of O levels in English and Maths in the 70s clearly showed you were numerate and literate.

At my fathers grammar the brightest in maths left early got a market stall and made a fortunate due to their mental arithmetic being spot on .Secondary moderns became comps, polys became unis .Personnel became HR. Now if you haven't got A levels you are the under class.

Maybe we are starting the road back to where we were in the 60/70s where the interview process includes tests , internal tutoring and mentoring returns and the traditional degree is side lined by business and the young as not being fit for purpose.

So lets change the uni/polys back to polys with business using them as a resource . Changing the mentality of the people  is a problem . How many parents will risk their precious childrens future by not  advising university ? Many years of government hard sell that university is best has to be undone and quickly.

Sounds like trying to tell people that house prices can go down..........

 

Firms will do their own tests, because the rich can buy themselves extra time in public exams. However, this fact goes unmentioned on their exam certificates, let alone on their CV. Dyslexia is a disposable - a flag of convienience

[thisisthisitmaybe]

17 minutes ago, Arbitrage said:

You are right about schools promoting cultural Marxism

Kids are taught that you must ALWAYS look up to government and any other form of authority

Most teachers are PC authoritarians, who don't respond well to true diversity of opinion

When I was at uni, a very eminent professor mistakenly replied to an email by cc'ing the original mailing list. He basically implied there was too much emphasis on womens studies in the department.

A contemporary, doing her PhD, and without an ounce of the professor's ability, replied, "Naughty Professor". 

That is how censorship works in England, through nudges and winks. 

The Prof since took early retirement, but continues to publish; unfortunately he can only access research funding with an emphasis on, ahem, womens studies. 

My sympathy for him was limited by the fact that his bookshelves were groaning under the weight of various unreadable tomes by the Frankfurt School.

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by thisisthisitmaybe

[chicker]

10 minutes ago, Arbitrage said:

Firms will do their own tests, because the rich can buy themselves extra time in public exams. However, this fact goes unmentioned on their exam certificates, let alone on their CV. Dyslexia is a disposable - a flag of convienience

Are you suggesting that the dyslexia card in some select schools gets used unfairly to aid the entrants ?  Sorry if being dense but I have little knowledge of how some schools may operate .

[Sandwiches33]

11 hours ago, MrXxx said:

Mmm, some interesting points.

Firstly, 'Sandwiches'...you seem to have a victim complex...why did all the majority of the teachers 'pick on you'?...be a very strange school if they did that for now reason..."Here he comes, first day, we don't 'know him from Adam' we we are all going to pick on him and make his school life hell'...think there is probably more to this than 'meets the eye'

Second point, I would advise the majority of school leavers to do a modern apprenticeship rather than going to university to get a degree...why?...some companies will pay for/send the apprentices to get a degree anyway, they will get paid from day one (and not have the expense of £9k per year), they will get valuable work experience (some universities are offering a professional training year now as part of a three year degree making it four years) AND the employer has 'skin in the game' and so will make sure that what their apprentice is doing is worthwhile. Finally, unlike apprenticeships years ago that were all practical subjects/vocational, many now are not.

Finally, as for the Blues getting fees lowered, I can't see it...they have just introduced the TEF (Teaching Excellence Framework) for universities and as part of 'buying into this', the universities can increase their fees in line with inflation if they get a particular grade (although this has just gone out to review so may not actually happen).

Well you see i laboured at length also as to what was wrong with me? I did a  look of self reflection and did wonder but i know I certainly was not a loud or disruptive kid, quite the opposite.What I can tell you though is that  after I left school a number of them were sacked or forced into early retirement as attitudes changed and more kids parents complained. I have no doubt now the majority were just bullies. They would select kids and just pick on them, often it wasnt even the disruptive kids. Many of these teachers were from a time wher eyou were allowed to hit the kids.

I did add the disclaimer there were a few excellent teachers it was not all of them but teacher based bullying is something neve rmentioned but it went on.

[Arbitrage]

1 hour ago, chicker said:

Are you suggesting that the dyslexia card in some select schools gets used unfairly to aid the entrants ?  Sorry if being dense but I have little knowledge of how some schools may operate .

Yes, dyslexia is a scam used by the rich to buy extra time in examinations

[chicker]

Just now, Arbitrage said:

Yes, dyslexia is a scam used by the rich to buy extra time in examinations

Does the school make an internal assessment if a child has dyslexia ? Does the school have to disclose how many dyslexic children they have ?

Does dyslexia go down as a special need ? What sort of schools are we talking about ? Is dyslexia disproportionately high in fee paying schools?

Not being argumentative just curious.

 

[mathschoc]

 

9 minutes ago, Arbitrage said:

Yes, dyslexia is a scam used by the rich to buy extra time in examinations

+1 there was a thread with this earlier on this year

 

[Talking Monkey]

1 hour ago, Sandwiches33 said:

Well you see i laboured at length also as to what was wrong with me? I did a  look of self reflection and did wonder but i know I certainly was not a loud or disruptive kid, quite the opposite.What I can tell you though is that  after I left school a number of them were sacked or forced into early retirement as attitudes changed and more kids parents complained. I have no doubt now the majority were just bullies. They would select kids and just pick on them, often it wasnt even the disruptive kids. Many of these teachers were from a time wher eyou were allowed to hit the kids.

I did add the disclaimer there were a few excellent teachers it was not all of them but teacher based bullying is something neve rmentioned but it went on.

We had this in the 80s we had a couple of teachers who were outright bullies, they loved to hit the kids (private school), when they came back as supply teachers after retirement in the early 2000s I heard they got booted out in 3 months as those old attitudes/approaches simply did not wash in the modern era, offensive put downs/bullying was frowned upon then and other younger teachers when told by the kids they oversaw went to the headmaster and had the shit teachers booted.

[mathschoc]

Train drivers for virgin are paid 58-63k a year, my eldest is better off doing that

[chicker]

5 hours ago, mathschoc said:

 

+1 there was a thread with this earlier on this year

 

Thanks . Read up on it and get how it functions. Some things I'd rather not know, it certainly sucks.

[iamnumerate]

On 14/07/2017 at 10:31 PM, thisisthisitmaybe said:

The golden age was probably the 90s in terms of going to uni from a working class background if you were bright enough. 

 

 

 

Surely the 1980s you got more money and there were more jobs when you left.

[VeryMeanReversion]

Degree-Apprenticeships look interesting.

"The government will pay two-thirds of the costs and fees while employers pay trainees' wages and other costs."

"The government says employers of any size can take part in the scheme."

 

I'll be aiming to get my kids on these.  

Anyone find it odd that the government pays 2/3rds the cost if done this way?

I wonder if there is a potential loophole where you start a company purely to take on an apprentice to minimise student debt. i.e. You are your own apprentice!

[afly]

2 minutes ago, VeryMeanReversion said:

Degree-Apprenticeships look interesting.

"The government will pay two-thirds of the costs and fees while employers pay trainees' wages and other costs."

"The government says employers of any size can take part in the scheme."

 

I'll be aiming to get my kids on these.  

Anyone find it odd that the government pays 2/3rds the cost if done this way?

I wonder if there is a potential loophole where you start a company purely to take on an apprentice to minimise student debt. i.e. You are your own apprentice!

The catch seems to be the limited amount of options for the scheme

Quote

 

There are currently 13 Degree Apprenticeships on offer:

• Chartered Surveying
• Electronic Systems Engineering
• Aerospace Engineering
• Aerospace Software Development
• Defence Systems Engineering
• Laboratory Science
• Nuclear
• Power Systems
• Public Relations
• Digital
• Automotive Engineering
• Banking Relationship Manager
• Construction

 

https://www.getmyfirstjob.co.uk/Apprenticeships/DegreeApprenticeships.aspx

Other than that they seem much better than a normal degree anyway. My first year on the job was spent learning that everything I'd been taught for the last 3 years was irrelevant

[VeryMeanReversion]

I've got a clever 16 year old doing summer work for me.  I just game him a maths/spreadsheet problem at 9.00am this morning, thought it would take him all day.   He did in within half an hour.  The next problem with be a bit harder

I've also recruited a Cambridge  grad with Masters/1st in electronics, incredibly bright. Had to pay good money for him though but well worth it.  I expect to be calling him boss in a few years.

[Sancho Panza]

1 hour ago, iamnumerate said:

Surely the 1980s you got more money and there were more jobs when you left.

Unemploynment  was 3mn+ in the 1980's.

[Sancho Panza]

17 minutes ago, VeryMeanReversion said:

Degree-Apprenticeships look interesting.

"The government will pay two-thirds of the costs and fees while employers pay trainees' wages and other costs."

"The government says employers of any size can take part in the scheme."

 

I'll be aiming to get my kids on these.  

Anyone find it odd that the government pays 2/3rds the cost if done this way?

I wonder if there is a potential loophole where you start a company purely to take on an apprentice to minimise student debt. i.e. You are your own apprentice!

 

12 minutes ago, afly said:

The catch seems to be the limited amount of options for the scheme

https://www.getmyfirstjob.co.uk/Apprenticeships/DegreeApprenticeships.aspx

Other than that they seem much better than a normal degree anyway. My first year on the job was spent learning that everything I'd been taught for the last 3 years was irrelevant

They look really good.

[Toast]

2 hours ago, VeryMeanReversion said:

Degree-Apprenticeships look interesting.

This can be very, very good. My previous employer (large company, which I have just left), has been recruiting degree-apprentices for about 5 years. It may have been a different scheme earlier on (I think the company paid more of the costs), but it has, over that period, been a great deal for the students, and I was happy both to recruit someone into my team five years ago on this basis, as well as helping out with selection days for other apprentices.

Pros: All the usual things you can imagine, such as graduating with no debt, having a job at the end of your degree, getting work experience to put on your CV, and having a salary while you learn.

Cons: Obviously, it takes longer (from end to end) than a conventional degree - but the actual time at the university is less. You don't get quite the same student "experience" (may be a pro from the point of view of the parents). The number of universities offering the courses is pretty limited, as is the range of subjects. I recruited a young woman who studied chemistry, so there may be more options if the company involved is large and committed. Carrying on to a higher degree (if desired) will be more difficult than via the conventional route. Lastly, some of the apprentices had quite a lot of very menial work to do in their day job (not the person I recruited, I'm happy to say). The way to get around that is to look for a big employer running this scheme, then with some pro-activity, you may be abe to find more interesting jobs/teams in the company to join.

Odd conflict of interest: We had a great deal of difficulty recruiting at the start, because schools did not support it, and so neither advertised nor pushed students to apply. This was because a pupil entering an apprenticeship scheme did not count as "leaving to go to university" (even if they ended up with a degree at the end of the apprenticeship), so it didn't look good on their school statistics. I was shocked to discover that the teachers didn't just ingore this mis-metrication in order to do the right thing, but bureaucracy is powerful. Anyway, I think this perverse incentive has been lifted now.

Top line: make sure your kids consider this.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Toast
Remove ungrammatical parentheses.

[iamnumerate]

11 minutes ago, Toast said:

Odd conflict of interest: We had a great deal of difficulty recruiting at the start, because schools did not support it, and so neither advertised nor pushed students to apply. This was because a pupil entering an apprenticeship scheme did not count as "leaving to go to university" (even if they ended up with a degree at the end of the apprenticeship), so it didn't look good on their school statistics. I was shocked to discover that the teachers didn't just ingore this mis-metrication in order to do the right thing, but bureaucracy is powerful. Anyway, I think this perverse incentive has been lifted now.

Top line: make sure your kids consider this.

I wanted to do a part time degree but at school was advised not to, as people would look down on me. Thanks teachers.

 

BTW if you thought teachers would ignore the mis metrification you were very optimistic.  My daughter was off school with something mild and we got a letter waring about her attendance - they wrote on the bottom "sorry we know she was ill, we have to send this anyway".

[Roman Roady]

Ideally, what should be said to every child, repeatedly, throughout his or her school life is something like this: 'You are in the process of being indoctrinated. We have not yet evolved a system of education that is not a system of indoctrination. We are sorry, but it is the best we can do. What you are being taught here is an amalgam of current prejudice and the choices of this particular culture. The slightest look at history will show how impermanent these must be. You are being taught by people who have been able to accommodate themselves to a regime of thought laid down by their predecessors. It is a self-perpetuating system. Those of you who are more robust and individual than others will be encouraged to leave and find ways of educating yourself — educating your own judgements. Those that stay must remember, always, and all the time, that they are being moulded and patterned to fit into the narrow and particular needs of this particular society.”

Doris Lessing from the Golden Notebook.

 

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/5606-ideally-what-should-be-said-to-every-child-repeatedly-throughout

 

[mathschoc]

Not just students in debt, universities also taking on debt:

https://amp.ft.com/content/c662168a-38c5-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6126f

is anyone in the U.K. not in debt?