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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.


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HOLA441
1 hour ago, Futuroid said:

I was simply pointing out that the UK has a long and established history of immigration and that areas dominated by immigrants are nothing new  

This particular argument is as patronising as it is wrong. 

We've had lions and elephants living here for hundreds of years, you didn't expect to spot one in your back garden.  

Mass immigration has exploded within the last 20 years, and didn't really start at all until after the war.

Some people can remember a world without it, and almost every adult can see the post 90s transformation with their own eyes.

What you've done, is to confuse Britain with America.  Please stop.

 

 

Edited by DrBuyToLeech
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HOLA442
On 18 June 2017 at 6:57 PM, Dave Beans said:

We can still be inside the single market, but outside of the jurisdiction of the ECJ.  However, if we remain in the customs union, we remain in the jurisdiction of the ECJ.  The only way that we'll "safely" leave is via the EEA.  WTO = economic catastrophe, associate membership = worse than what we have now.  Whatever deal we have in the future, and we want to access many parts of the single market (EMA, Single European Sky et al) we will have to have EU law on the statute book.

Let's be clear on Single European Sky. The UK are at the vanguard of ATM in Europe, and it is in the Europe's interest for us to remain as key participants. It would be Europe's loss if we exit SESAR. There is no need for this to happen. ATC is an international business, which predates the EU; and does not need an ECJ or ECHR or any of that to operate seamlessly and effectively.

Edited by GrizzlyDave
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HOLA443
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HOLA444
31 minutes ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

This particular argument is as patronising as it is wrong. 

We've had lions and elephants living here for hundreds of years, you didn't expect to spot one in your back garden.  

I must have missed the lions and elephants roaming the UK!

:lol:

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HOLA445
21 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Let's be clear on Single European Sky. The UK are at the vanguard of ATM in Europe, and it is in the Europe's interest for us to remain as key participants. It would be Europe's loss if we exit SESAR. There is no need for this to happen. ATC is an international business, which predates the EU; and does not need an ECJ or ECHR or any of that to operate seamlessly and effectively.

If the UK decides to self immolate, and tells the EU to stick it, what then?

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HOLA446
7 hours ago, South Lorne said:

...there is no question of immigration being zero ...is it zero in Aus..?....don't quote zero when it has never been in the calculation and is merely an attempt by you to mislead...basically we do not need to be in a union which is not based on democracy and is led by the unelected ....maybe you  have a vested interest in this style of set up ....but at least now, we are aware....:rolleyes:

Sure he's got a vested interest. Most people have - they believe it gives them a bit more money, and they're mindless little drones without an ounce of self-respect who'll wander off towards anyone or anything that promises them that.

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HOLA447
1 hour ago, ccc said:

I'd prefer neither when it's in large numbers. 

Its difficult to know exact numbers - but in the past 15 years we have imported between 3-5 million people from a single other country. I'm almost certain this has never happened before in the UK.

To say there has always been immigration to the UK is an extremely poor effort in comparison. What's happened recently is off the scale and unprecedented. 

Hence things like the "shock" Brexit vote. 

Join the dots. 

You get that type of comparison all the time from people who thing because two things use the same word they're equivalent. Not keen on a huge skyscraper? Well you're not bothered about that other nearby building (the small cottage)! Complaining about motorways? You whinging about country lanes too? Or "well they'd have done the same thing in the past if they could," as if that somehow justifies it now. All is simple in the Remainer world.

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HOLA448
1 hour ago, Futuroid said:

I joined the dots a while ago and they led me to a toxic background of lies and half truths drip fed by a Eurosceptic press, owned by foreign billionaires and cheerled by Eurosceptic members of the Conservative party.

So assumed that the other side was all rainbows and bunnies? Should've been an easy campaign to counter then, but apparently it was easier to attack Leave than actually make a good case for the EU.

Quote

 

This has been mentioned many times in this thread already (at least three times by me), but the real power behind Brexit cares not about immigration. Immigration was simply something that was identified by campaign focus groups as a "hot button" that could be used to harvest votes. As was for example, the NHS.

Daniel Hannan - who is essentially Mr Brexit (he's been campaigning for it for 25 odd years) suggests that Brexit may not reduce immigration:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683445/daniel-hannan-brexit-not-lead-cut-migration-vote-leave

 

Sure, our own destructive government is also a problem. And you can't tell people why to vote on something (look what happened when Theresa May tried that).

Quote

And "Freedom of Movement" might seem like a recent concept, brought to the table by the EU, but in fact the UK has only had "control of it's borders" for 11 years in the last 100.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/05/freedom-movement-didnt-start-eu-its-norm-britain

British Citizenship has only existed for 34 year, prior to which it was Citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies. Will tens of millions born outside the UK free to come and work as they pleased.

 

For most of that last 100 years travelling was rather more difficult than it is now, so it's an invalid comparison. The fact that control wasn't needed in the past doesn't tell us anything about whether it's needed now when the situation has changed.

Edited by Riedquat
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HOLA449
5 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

For most of that last 100 years travelling was rather more difficult than it is now, so it's an invalid comparison. The fact that control wasn't needed in the past doesn't tell us anything about whether it's needed now when the situation has changed.

I think the fact that travel is easier is as much as contributor to UK immigration as EU freedom of movement. 

Oh, that and the fact that successive UK governments (from both major parties) have mysteriously not been willing to use the tools available to restrict immigration... 

 

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HOLA4410
2 hours ago, Futuroid said:

I joined the dots a while ago and they led me to a toxic background of lies and half truths drip fed by a Eurosceptic press, owned by foreign billionaires and cheerled by Eurosceptic members of the Conservative party.

This has been mentioned many times in this thread already (at least three times by me), but the real power behind Brexit cares not about immigration. Immigration was simply something that was identified by campaign focus groups as a "hot button" that could be used to harvest votes. As was for example, the NHS.

Daniel Hannan - who is essentially Mr Brexit (he's been campaigning for it for 25 odd years) suggests that Brexit may not reduce immigration:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683445/daniel-hannan-brexit-not-lead-cut-migration-vote-leave

Decades before Johnson and Gove had even considered Brexit, people like Hannan was quietly working away, please note that this work (and in fact the formation of UKIP) occurred long before freedom of movement was implemented in the UK:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/29/daniel-hannan-the-man-who-brought-you-brexit 

And "Freedom of Movement" might seem like a recent concept, brought to the table by the EU, but in fact the UK has only had "control of it's borders" for 11 years in the last 100.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/05/freedom-movement-didnt-start-eu-its-norm-britain

British Citizenship has only existed for 34 year, prior to which it was Citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies. Will tens of millions born outside the UK free to come and work as they pleased.

This is all very pleasant. It however changes nothing in regards to the UK taking in way way too many people at present.

27 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

You get that type of comparison all the time from people who thing because two things use the same word they're equivalent. Not keen on a huge skyscraper? Well you're not bothered about that other nearby building (the small cottage)! Complaining about motorways? You whinging about country lanes too? Or "well they'd have done the same thing in the past if they could," as if that somehow justifies it now. All is simple in the Remainer world.

The Polish after the war thing is the most ridiculous comparison you hear over and over again. I'm not even going to waste my time pointing out why. If you have a brain you will work it out anyway.

1 hour ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

This particular argument is as patronising as it is wrong. 

We've had lions and elephants living here for hundreds of years, you didn't expect to spot one in your back garden.  

Mass immigration has exploded within the last 20 years, and didn't really start at all until after the war.

Some people can remember a world without it, and almost every adult can see the post 90s transformation with their own eyes.

What you've done, is to confuse Britain with America.  Please stop.

 

 

It is patronising and just plain stupid IMO.

I've got a long history of drinking 10 pints every Saturday - no problem. So next week I am going to drink 45 and see what happens.

I am sure it will be fine !!

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HOLA4411
1 hour ago, DrBuyToLeech said:

This particular argument is as patronising as it is wrong. 

We've had lions and elephants living here for hundreds of years, you didn't expect to spot one in your back garden.  

Mass immigration has exploded within the last 20 years, and didn't really start at all until after the war.

Some people can remember a world without it, and almost every adult can see the post 90s transformation with their own eyes.

What you've done, is to confuse Britain with America.  Please stop.

 

 

It's hard to blame EU for relaxed immigration controls post 2004 after 10 new nations were admitted to the EU. And it was and still is irresponsible to use it as one of the main reason for Brexit. UK same as other EU countries had clear choice to  imposed transitional controls and temporarily barring migrants. There was freedom of movement of people immediately. In fact other EU nations including Germany introduced the measures for up to seven years. 

And that's one of the tragedy of Brexit and the unholy mess we are in now

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HOLA4412
14 minutes ago, rollover said:

It's hard to blame EU for relaxed immigration controls post 2004 after 10 new nations were admitted to the EU. And it was and still is irresponsible to use it as one of the main reason for Brexit. UK same as other EU countries had clear choice to  imposed transitional controls and temporarily barring migrants. There was freedom of movement of people immediately. In fact other EU nations including Germany introduced the measures for up to seven years. 

And that's one of the tragedy of Brexit and the unholy mess we are in now

Indeed. Short memories of the British and the electorate. The immigrant to the UK from the late 90s onwards was organised by UK Plc and sold to the public by their policitian friends. The EU had little to do with the numbers that were paid to come to the UK. Other countries with mature economies, France/Germany/Holland/Belgium/Italy etc , mitigated the flow from the EE countries. Only the UK went full on , due to the requirement to "grow" the UK economy. In effect, to boost the assets and wealth of a small minority. The UK public have been sold a pup, imo, with Brexit.

I'm sure it will sort itself out in 20-30 years, but until then......I've got my popcorn in hand, watching the unfolding - rather British - farce. Like one of those 1960's Ealing comedies that only the British could make.

Edited by Agentimmo
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HOLA4413
5 minutes ago, Agentimmo said:

Indeed. Short memories of the British and the electorate. The immigrant to the UK from the late 90s onwards was organised by UK Plc and sold to the public by their policitian friends. The EU had little to do with the numbers that were paid to come to the UK. Other countries with mature economies, France/Germany/Holland/Belgium/Italy etc , mitigated the flow from the EE countries. Only the UK went full on , due to the requirement to "grow" the UK economy. In effect, to boost the assets and wealth of a small minority. The UK public have been sold a pup, imo, with Brexit.

Yeah, sure, we've had our own government screw up there. So what do we do about it now though? What you're saying there is that the EU is now a barrier to trying to limit the damage of one of our mistakes.

Quote

I'm sure it will sort itself out in 20-30 years, but until then......I've got my popcorn in hand, watching the unfolding - rather British - farce. Like one of those 1960's Ealing comedies that only the British could make.

It's the sort of farce where you see a badly overweight man trying to go out for a run, go to the gym etc. Amusing and looks ridiculous, but when you stop and think about it that's the only way he's going to get over being overweight, to shake off the lethargy that's got him to that stage due to the time he spent sitting back and letting something else do anything and everything for him, just as long as it kept the pizza deliveries coming. So it's either something that looks a bit farcical now for now, or staying fat. I've a lot more admiration for him  making the effort than for the ones telling him not to bother.

Edited by Riedquat
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HOLA4414
30 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Yeah, sure, we've had our own government screw up there. So what do we do about it now though? What you're saying there is that the EU is now a barrier to trying to limit the damage of one of our mistakes.

It's the sort of farce where you see a badly overweight man trying to go out for a run, go to the gym etc. Amusing and looks ridiculous, but when you stop and think about it that's the only way he's going to get over being overweight, to shake off the lethargy that's got him to that stage due to the time he spent sitting back and letting something else do anything and everything for him, just as long as it kept the pizza deliveries coming. So it's either something that looks a bit farcical now for now, or staying fat. I've a lot more admiration for him  making the effort than for the ones telling him not to bother.

Ah, silly analogy to the rescue  - it's been a while.

Thanks

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HOLA4415
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HOLA4416
2 hours ago, Dave Beans said:

If the UK decides to self immolate, and tells the EU to stick it, what then?

No change. The sky will still be blue, with Air France con trails from Paris - New York through our airspace.

According to NATS up to 80% of oceanic flights fly through UK airspace...

http://nats.aero/blog/2014/06/north-atlantic-skies-gateway-europe/

Edited by GrizzlyDave
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HOLA4417

Try as I might, I completely fail to see why so many on here still believe that leaving the EU will have a major impact on migration. No major party is offering this, in fact both Labour and the Tories are being clear that this will not happen.  At best we will get a change from FoM to FoL, via a very light touch work visa system, but noises from the EU is that this would be on offer if we decided to stay.

We could make an immediate and useful, if limited, impact on "bad" migration is to change our benefit system to stop pulling in people who cannot support themselves and enforce the existing EU rules that allow us to send those who cannot home. However, I suspect that the Tory party is now too worried about again being seen as the nasty party to do much about benefits during this Parliament.

 

 

 

    

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HOLA4418
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HOLA4419
6 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Try as I might, I completely fail to see why so many on here still believe that leaving the EU will have a major impact on migration. No major party is offering this, in fact both Labour and the Tories are being clear that this will not happen.  At best we will get a change from FoM to FoL, via a very light touch work visa system, but noises from the EU is that this would be on offer if we decided to stay.

As has been pointed out numerous times no-one here is saying that leaving the EU is a magic bullet but one thing amongst many that needs dealing with in order to fix the problem. No major party offering it is another one.

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HOLA4420

Latest Brussels rumour is that Davis has already conceded that FoM will remain until the day we actually Leave the EU and has accepted that anyone in the country the day before we Leave will keep those rights permanently. 

He is now concentrating on getting the EU to agree that FoM will not apply during any transition period but getting a firm no from the EU.

On the plus side rumour has it the EU will agree to ending the authority of the ECoJ providing the UK courts are required to implement EU law and accept precedents established by the ECoJ.  

  

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HOLA4421
Just now, Confusion of VIs said:

Latest Brussels rumour is that Davis has already conceded that FoM will remain until the day we actually Leave the EU and has accepted that anyone in the country the day before we Leave will keep those rights permanently. 

He is now concentrating on getting the EU to agree that FoM will not apply during any transition period but getting a firm no from the EU.

On the plus side rumour has it the EU will agree to ending the authority of the ECoJ providing the UK courts are required to implement EU law and accept precedents established by the ECoJ.   

On the first point, that's not unreasonable. On the rest it sounds very much like the EU wanting to have their cake and eat it and being balshy just because they want to play the "look how big we are" game rather than achieve anything useful. Their arrogance really knows no bounds, there really is little difference between "we want you to impose our laws" and "we're insisting on ruling your country."

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HOLA4422
2 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

As has been pointed out numerous times no-one here is saying that leaving the EU is a magic bullet but one thing amongst many that needs dealing with in order to fix the problem. No major party offering it is another one.

If its not a magic bullet why are we spending so much time and effort on it. 

If we spent a fraction of what it will cost to leave the EU on sorting out our own problems we could make far more and quicker progress on all of the issues that so concern the Leavers.  

 

 

 

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HOLA4423
23 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

No change. The sky will still be blue, with Air France con trails from Paris - New York through our airspace.

According to NATS up to 80% of oceanic flights fly through UK airspace...

http://nats.aero/blog/2014/06/north-atlantic-skies-gateway-europe/

I think we should have air tolls then GD. Especially since they are now talking about flying cars.

We'll need the cash after all and we need to think of inventive ideas to pay for our leadership's bar bills.

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HOLA4424
7 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

If its not a magic bullet why are we spending so much time and effort on it. 

Because it's a necessary step. Magic bullets don't exist, if you only bother putting time and effort in to things that you think are you'll never get anywhere. You need to do the right thing, not the easy thing. Now I know that you don't agree that it's the right thing either, but that's a more substantial reason (obviously I disagree). That you think it's wrong is a valid objection to make. That it's hard is not.

Edited by Riedquat
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HOLA4425
13 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

 

On the plus side rumour has it the EU will agree to ending the authority of the ECoJ providing the UK courts are required to implement EU law and accept precedents established by the ECoJ.  

  

Eh? That sounds like exactly the same thing it's proposing to end

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