thecrashingisles Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Just now, Riedquat said: Sounds better to me. Maybe not as fast (good!) or efficient (yawn, that's just an excuse for laziness) but without the big mess of the noisy, ugly, fume-spewing motorway and a bit more variety and character instead. As long as it doesn't involve going back to everything else being medieval I'll take that. You'll take that, and the other 27 will carry on with their motorway. What have you achieved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: You'll take that, and the other 27 will carry on with their motorway. What have you achieved? Driving on a side road full of potholes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: You'll take that, and the other 27 will carry on with their motorway. What have you achieved? Avoiding the huge pile-up. Besides if all you've got to offer is be on the motorway or have it bulldozed through you, no wonder my response is an intense dislike for it and anyone who supports it. Edited April 25, 2017 by Riedquat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 10 minutes ago, Funn3r said: Strangely I also was almost born in Germany. In the 1950s though polite society still held the remnants of wartime anti-German propaganda and so to avoid me receiving any "stigma" it was arranged for the birth to happen in UK. If you on the other hand were actually born there it is hardly a surprise that you were subsequently allowed to remain. It's perhaps not clear to you but visa-free travel to a country is unrelated to right of residence. I am aware that residency and visa-free travel are different things (as is right to work) but it's apparent that an awful lot of Remainers aren't by the noise they make about being unable to go to the EU countries on holiday after Brexit. Also being born in a country does not automatically grant citizenship (or even resident rights?). Only about 30 or so countries in the world grant such rights. IIRC no EU countries do. My point was that travel, working and living abroad happened before the existence of the EU, the EC, the EEC and it's predecessor the European Steel and Coal Community. Life will continue after Brexit. A better life for many at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Just now, the gardener said: Life will continue after Brexit. A better life for many at that. Your life won't be better. You'll be haunted by the ongoing presence of the EU for the rest of your life. Every good piece of economic data, every success on the world stage, every time the UK falls in behind an EU decision will gnaw away at your sense of national pride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: Yes, that's why I chose the example. There is free movement within the UK which I presume you are not proposing to end, yet there are problems because of depopulation in some areas and problems because of population growth in others. Could it perhaps be that there are other factors than just the personal freedom of individuals to vote with their feet? Open borders impact population. End of story. 58 minutes ago, Funn3r said: For me personally the benefit is that I have "European Citizen" on the front of my passport, whereas previously I didn't. I now have the right to go and live in places which I didn't have the right when I was a kid. Some "anti-FOM" people don't agree that people such as myself should be able to do this. You are welcome to your opinion but don't expect me to just give up my rights to you without a hell of a fight. If you are a benefit to a country you will have no problem. If you are not - get over it. Such is life. 43 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: Because the rights once given were never intended to be taken away and cannot be taken away as they are covered by the Vienna treaty without the agreement of all of the 28. The question really is, why are so many people trying to argue that these rights can be taken away. It's a waste of time and energy; diverting us from the aim of getting us the best possible deal. As already stated - this Vienna thing is far from conclusive. Thee are numerous articles debating it. So please stop stating it like it is 100% agreed and nailed down. Its not. As for never intended to be taken away ? Complete nonsense. Article 50 exists. So it has been known all along that countries may leave. Its just common sense anyway. Its such a ridiculous argument. FOM is a pillar of the EU. Not in the EU = no FOM. Whether the EU and the UK come to an ad hoc agreement is another matter. ASsI said I think they probably will. However lets not go down this taken away rights nonsense. Anyone who went to another EU country with the belief their rights would be 100% guaranteed for ever is an idiot. I don't say that as an insult. Its just the truth. 36 minutes ago, kzb said: No you've got it all wrong. Immigration is good and it grows GDP. Each EU immigrant contributes £1.34 for every £1 they cost. What we should be doing is going all-out to increase immigration. If 300,000 per year is good, then 600,000 per year would be twice as good. Let's set a target of a million p.a. At average income that would boost GDP by £8.8bn p.a. and save the NHS. Lets just make it 5 million per year and we will be the richest country on the planet within a decade. Job done. 9 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Your life won't be better. You'll be haunted by the ongoing presence of the EU for the rest of your life. Every good piece of economic data, every success on the world stage, every time the UK falls in behind an EU decision will gnaw away at your sense of national pride. Along with others I am starting to think you and others are being paid for this. Or your work or something compels you to post such things. Its all very strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarsEnd Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 3 hours ago, thecrashingisles said: Have you considered standing for office on a policy of compulsory euthanasia? A one-child policy? Perhaps a bit of genocide? You lot are all the same, it's so predictable. It's only a matter of time before you start accusing anybody who doesn't agree with your views with wanting to kill everybody. Projection is what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarsEnd Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 1 hour ago, ccc said: Its is quite amazing. Apparently Norway, Switzerland and every other nation outside of the EU (About 170 IIRC) all live in a fantasy World. Strange that - as I have visited a number of them and they seem like real bona fide actual places. I must have been imagining it. Yes, New Zealand, Australia and many other successful independent countries who ARE NOT IN THE EU are also all make believe and don't really exist. I mean how could they exist outside of the mighty EU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Futuroid said: Ireland is a bit naughty, and has been labelled as such. France - a tax haven? Have you been taking LSD long? (Pro tip: UK Corp Tax rate is 19%, Macron was proposing lowering theirs to 25%!) Guadalupe / La Reunion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 39 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Your life won't be better. You'll be haunted by the ongoing presence of the EU for the rest of your life. Every good piece of economic data, every success on the world stage, every time the UK falls in behind an EU decision will gnaw away at your sense of national pride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarsEnd Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 40 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Your life won't be better. You'll be haunted by the ongoing presence of the EU for the rest of your life. Every good piece of economic data, every success on the world stage, every time the UK falls in behind an EU decision will gnaw away at your sense of national pride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarsEnd Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 41 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Your life won't be better. You'll be haunted by the ongoing presence of the EU for the rest of your life. Every good piece of economic data, every success on the world stage, every time the UK falls in behind an EU decision will gnaw away at your sense of national pride. You've definitely completely lost the plot. I'm convinced you are being paid by the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 56 minutes ago, Riedquat said: Avoiding the huge pile-up. Besides if all you've got to offer is be on the motorway or have it bulldozed through you, no wonder my response is an intense dislike for it and anyone who supports it. Theres always pile-ups or at least always the risk of pile-ups. If we're that unconfident and sh1t at driving however, maybe we should stick to the pony track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 17 minutes ago, StarsEnd said: Yes, New Zealand, Australia and many other successful independent countries who ARE NOT IN THE EU are also all make believe and don't really exist. I mean how could they exist outside of the mighty EU? They don't exist. They are all fantasies in your own mind. Now off with you to see a shrink !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, pig said: Theres always pile-ups or at least always the risk of pile-ups. If we're that unconfident and sh1t at driving however, maybe we should stick to the pony track. Why assume we're the sh1t drivers? I'd say stick to the pony track anyway though, it's usually a more pleasant journey unless you're in a hurry, and being in a hurry all the time isn't something to aspire to. Besides the motorway is taking us towards Milton Keynes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 29 minutes ago, ccc said: As already stated - this Vienna thing is far from conclusive. Thee are numerous articles debating it. So please stop stating it like it is 100% agreed and nailed down. Its not. As for never intended to be taken away ? Complete nonsense. Article 50 exists. So it has been known all along that countries may leave. Its just common sense anyway. Its such a ridiculous argument. FOM is a pillar of the EU. Not in the EU = no FOM. Whether the EU and the UK come to an ad hoc agreement is another matter. ASsI said I think they probably will. However lets not go down this taken away rights nonsense. Anyone who went to another EU country with the belief their rights would be 100% guaranteed for ever is an idiot. I don't say that as an insult. Its just the truth. The Vienna thing seems pretty clear cut, but as always you can find a dissenting legal opinion. Although as it would take a donkey's years long legal case to try and deny those rights it doesn't really matter as we won't be going down that route. Neither the treaties nor A50 contain any mention of removing acquired rights, so we can be pretty clear that it was never intended that they should be removed once granted. No need for an ad hoc agreement, just confirmation that acquired rights will be honoured and then we can move on to negotiating our exit. Although nothing in life is 100% guaranteed as all the other 27 members of the EU have said they are permanent, it would be reasonable to assume that once you have them you have them for life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: Your life won't be better. You'll be haunted by the ongoing presence of the EU for the rest of your life. Every good piece of economic data, every success on the world stage, every time the UK falls in behind an EU decision will gnaw away at your sense of national pride. ? You are funny! ? I don't think I'm tempting fate by saying that I'm likely to outlive the EU. I think most people in their 70s and 80s will too. The EU as you know and love it is dead. It's unfortunate that it morphed into a monster ? but perhaps Brexit will encourage others to leave and we can regroup around a different type of arrangement that doesn't have all the EU's faults and one that is more international in outlook and not so parochial, protectionist and stifling in nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Confusion of VIs said: The Vienna thing seems pretty clear cut, but as always you can find a dissenting legal opinion. Although as it would take a donkey's years long legal case to try and deny those rights it doesn't really matter as we won't be going down that route. Neither the treaties nor A50 contain any mention of removing acquired rights, so we can be pretty clear that it was never intended that they should be removed once granted. No need for an ad hoc agreement, just confirmation that acquired rights will be honoured and then we can move on to negotiating our exit. Although nothing in life is 100% guaranteed as all the other 27 members of the EU have said they are permanent, it would be reasonable to assume that once you have them you have them for life. I agree that is probably what will happen. I think the cut off point could be an issue though. As I've been saying for a while - if they put a date on it with a lot of lead up - the final few months could see an incredible influx of folk to these shores. Its a no lose situation for anyone from Bulgaria, Poland or wherever. Come over here - shack up with your cousin or pal or whoever who already lives here (None will have a problem with that) and see what happens. It works out ? You get full UK rights to live here forever along with your existing nationality and passport. Lottery win for many people. It doesn't work out ? You head off back home or to another country and see what happens. I can potentially see a million + easy if they put a hard date on it with advance notice. It could be an absolute disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 19 minutes ago, ccc said: I can potentially see a million + easy if they put a hard date on it with advance notice. It could be an absolute disaster. And what if exactly the opposite happens? Million + will leave and it will be an absolute disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, rollover said: And what if exactly the opposite happens? Million + will leave and it will be an absolute disaster. The opposite would be fantastic after most likely a short period of shock. And it's highly unlikely anyway. Why would huge numbers stay here right up until the point they can choose to add the long term rights to stay here - and then all ****** off at the last minute ? Almost no chance of that. There may be a gradual drift off from some who feel "unwelcome" but i see zero evidence of that where i stay. Quite the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 45 minutes ago, Riedquat said: Why assume we're the sh1t drivers? I'd say stick to the pony track anyway though, it's usually a more pleasant journey unless you're in a hurry, and being in a hurry all the time isn't something to aspire to. Besides the motorway is taking us towards Milton Keynes. We're not - we should be cruising down the motorway in our jag with the rest of Europe following our lead and trying to catch up. That Milton Keynes comment made me laugh out loud though, I'll give you that ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Mirror Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 2 hours ago, StarsEnd said: You've definitely completely lost the plot. I'm convinced you are being paid by the EU. Me too. Ive given up arguing with him (and 1 or 2 others) now, whats the point? Life is too short. Brexit is happening, que sera sera etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 3 hours ago, ccc said: Lets just make it 5 million per year and we will be the richest country on the planet within a decade. Job done. I hope people realise this is the economic model the UK has been following for the last couple of decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Blue Riband Blues https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/25/nestle-axe-jobs-blue-riband-poland-swiss-confectionery More fallout from Brexit no doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Just now, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Blue Riband Blues https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/25/nestle-axe-jobs-blue-riband-poland-swiss-confectionery More fallout from Brexit no doubt. They're probably being paid by the EU to create bad news for Brexit UK... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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