GreenDevil

Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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2 hours ago, onlooker said:
Quote

Nigel Farage: Theresa May the worst Home Secretary in HISTORY on immigration  :  Express.

Hmm. I'm kinda with Nigel on this.

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9 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

It didn't need to be torn up.  The 'opt out' from ever closer union is something that every member state has by default since any new treaty requires unanimity.

That might hold as a reason when there was Cameron trying to keep his back benchers in line.  But sooner or later, there will be another prime minister who is willing to sign us up for anything and everything.  

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34 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Housing crisis they said. Immigrants stealin' all our homes they said. Leave the EU and it will all be OK they said.

Housing crisis: more than 200,000 homes in England lie empty

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/apr/20/over-200000-homes-in-england-still-lying-empty-despite-housing-shortages

 

Here are the empty homes?

Why are they empty?

200,000 from a pool of ~30m properties is not a huge number.

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7 hours ago, A17 said:

That might hold as a reason when there was Cameron trying to keep his back benchers in line.  But sooner or later, there will be another prime minister who is willing to sign us up for anything and everything.  

That can happen regardless of Brexit.  Sooner or later we'll have a government that wants to rejoin, and this time without any opt outs.  Arguably there's more chance that we'll be in the Eurozone in 30 years time than there was before Brexit.

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6 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

That can happen regardless of Brexit.  Sooner or later we'll have a government that wants to rejoin, and this time without any opt outs.  Arguably there's more chance that we'll be in the Eurozone in 30 years time than there was before Brexit.

Don't let us stop you, argue away.

Edited by 24 year mortgage 8itch

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1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said:

Probability of rejoining without opt out > probability of changing status quo without Brexit.

Wow, so compelling 

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4 minutes ago, 24 year mortgage 8itch said:

Wow, so compelling 

Well think about the context:

- Anti-Europeans are forever forecasting that the Euro will collapse - eventually they will have to give up arguing black is white.

- The decline in the pound vs the Euro/DM over the decades is quite consistent.  If it continues questions will be asked about the wisdom of Brexit.

- We're certain to have an economic crisis at some point.

- The political mood always goes in cycles.  The current consensus will change.

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1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said:

Well think about the context:

- Anti-Europeans are forever forecasting that the Euro will collapse - eventually they will have to give up arguing black is white.

- The decline in the pound vs the Euro/DM over the decades is quite consistent.  If it continues questions will be asked about the wisdom of Brexit.

- We're certain to have an economic crisis at some point.

- The political mood always goes in cycles.  The current consensus will change.

More wishful thinking than compelling arguments.

1) it is clear the Euro doctrine is more important than individual member states - not something I want to be part of.

 

2) This has happened in spite of EU membership, how can you single out Brexit as the cause

 

3) we've had economic crises within the EU, what's the difference?

 

4) You wish 

Edited by 24 year mortgage 8itch

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11 hours ago, onlooker said:

David Cameron said exactly the same.

At least if we are out of the EU and our politicians continue to flood the country in such an unsustainable manner they'll not have anybody to blame and we can vote them out.

How may votes did UKIP get at the last election? Quite a few. Double that and they start taking serious numbers of seats from LibLabCon. If they fudge Brexit and carry on as they are then UKIP will be back with a vengeance. 

 

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1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said:

That can happen regardless of Brexit.  Sooner or later we'll have a government that wants to rejoin, and this time without any opt outs.  Arguably there's more chance that we'll be in the Eurozone in 30 years time than there was before Brexit.

They would have to have a referendum first.

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6 minutes ago, 24 year mortgage 8itch said:

More wishful thinking than compelling arguments.

1) it isn't clear the Euro doctrine is more important than individual member states - not something I want to be part of.

 

2) This has happened in spite of EU membership, how can you single out Brexit as the cause

 

3) we've had economic crises within the EU, what's the difference?

 

4) You wish 

1) Some people don't like the idea and will never like it, but you can get to 50% without them in the right circumstances.

2) I'm not saying Brexit will be the cause as such, but that it changes the perspective.  We will have something to blame.

3) The difference is the different context.  We will be outside.  If there are times when we are doing badly and they are doing well, it will be natural to ask what could have been if only...

4) This is the one statement that is not wishful thinking at all.  Nothing stays the same forever.

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2 minutes ago, Errol said:

They would have to have a referendum first.

Agreed.  But it could be won. 

If Remain had won the political reality is that there would have needed to be a referendum before any new treaty anyway because it would have drawn a line in the sand.

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These opt outs would come up for review in any case.  When is our rebate due for review?  Not long now I think.

Can anyone tell me why the Green Party would support the EU?  How does trundling goods and people around from one end of a continent to the other help climate change?

Edited by kzb

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4 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

1) Some people don't like the idea and will never like it, but you can get to 50% without them in the right circumstances.

2) I'm not saying Brexit will be the cause as such, but that it changes the perspective.  We will have something to blame.

3) The difference is the different context.  We will be outside.  If there are times when we are doing badly and they are doing well, it will be natural to ask what could have been if only...

4) This is the one statement that is not wishful thinking at all.  Nothing stays the same forever.

I've had to edit my post, 1) should read "it is clear" as in throwing Greece under the bus 

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8 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

1) Some people don't like the idea and will never like it, but you can get to 50% without them in the right circumstances.

2) I'm not saying Brexit will be the cause as such, but that it changes the perspective.  We will have something to blame.

3) The difference is the different context.  We will be outside.  If there are times when we are doing badly and they are doing well, it will be natural to ask what could have been if only...

4) This is the one statement that is not wishful thinking at all.  Nothing stays the same forever.

You talk about changing perspectives and wondering "if only". 

 

Theres nothing there other than wishful thinking that people change their minds.

 

you are the one wishing bad things will happen so you can say "I told you so"...

Edited by 24 year mortgage 8itch

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11 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

But unfortunately (for anyone who believes that democracy requires a functioning opposition) they are completely useless and it looks like the Tories will have a free run for many years to come. 

 

In what sense is the Labour Party no longer a functioning opposition? On practically every issue I can think of - housing, employment, taxation, spending - they are the only sane voice in parliament.

Again and again we keep hearing that Corbyn is completely useless and/or unelectable. Generally, as here, this judgement is advanced without explanation. Or perhaps some reference is made to Corbyn being photographed shaking hands with Gerry Adams thirty years ago.

It's poppycock.

He's even managed to navigate the Brexit waters with a degree of deftness. Sufficiently populist to disarm Tory accusations of betrayal, yet not so much as to alienate the many pro-Europeans in his own party.

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14 minutes ago, 24 year mortgage 8itch said:

You talk about changing perspectives and wondering "if only". 

 

Theres nothing there other than wishful thinking that people change their minds.

 

you are the one wishing bad things will happen so you can say "I told you so"...

Britain not being part of the mainstream politics of Europe is bad enough for me.  I don't need to wish for anything worse than that.

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24 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

1) Some people don't like the idea and will never like it, but you can get to 50% without them in the right circumstances.

2) I'm not saying Brexit will be the cause as such, but that it changes the perspective.  We will have something to blame.

3) The difference is the different context.  We will be outside.  If there are times when we are doing badly and they are doing well, it will be natural to ask what could have been if only...

4) This is the one statement that is not wishful thinking at all.  Nothing stays the same forever.

3) And when we are doing well and the EU is doing badly? We will be saying thank goodness we're well out of it.

 

4) Nothing stays the same forever apart from your beloved EU apparently. Lots of rainbows and unicorns in your EU aren't there?

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1 minute ago, zugzwang said:

 

In what sense is the Labour Party no longer a functioning opposition? On practically every issue I can think of - housing, employment, taxation, spending - they are the only sane voice in parliament.

Again and again we keep hearing that Corbyn is completely useless and/or unelectable. Generally, as here, this judgement is advanced without explanation. Or perhaps some reference is made to Corbyn being photographed shaking hands with Gerry Adams thirty years ago.

It's poppycock.

He's even managed to navigate the Brexit waters with a degree of deftness. Sufficiently populist to disarm Tory accusations of betrayal, yet not so much as to alienate the many pro-Europeans in his own party.

Political power.

You can blame the newspapers, disobedient party members, deluded electorate, Putin if you want. What the Tories understand is that this is a 'power' game, and they have control over (most!) of the above.

If you're having to point out to everybody that hey actually he's OK, this means somewhere along the line he's failed. Or you have to claim that somehow the entire 'system' does not work.

And I should stress I am not voting Tory - aside from anything else I am pretty enraged and outraged at Tory housing policy over the last 7 years, blow by fecking blow, year after year and wouldn't touch them now with the proverbial shitty stick.

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1 hour ago, zugzwang said:

 

In what sense is the Labour Party no longer a functioning opposition? On practically every issue I can think of - housing, employment, taxation, spending - they are the only sane voice in parliament.

Again and again we keep hearing that Corbyn is completely useless and/or unelectable. Generally, as here, this judgement is advanced without explanation. Or perhaps some reference is made to Corbyn being photographed shaking hands with Gerry Adams thirty years ago.

It's poppycock.

He's even managed to navigate the Brexit waters with a degree of deftness. Sufficiently populist to disarm Tory accusations of betrayal, yet not so much as to alienate the many pro-Europeans in his own party.

Corbyn has been crucified by the media.  A bit like Trump, he doesn't stand a chance against them.

What is putting me off about voting Labour is the memory of their last administration, rather than Corbyn.

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8 minutes ago, kzb said:

Corbyn has been crucified by the media.  A bit like Trump, he doesn't stand a chance against them.

That would be the Trump who beat every establishment politician in the USA and became President?  Corbyn is nothing like him...

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2 minutes ago, hotairmail said:

Someone complained about there being Corbyn, May and Farron fighting this election as though we're plumbing the depths.

To my mind, they are a very refreshing change from the slick snake oil salesmen we've had for 20 years - Blair, Cameron, Clegg. It's a reaction against TV friendly, self enriching types.

Agreed.  Although it's ironic in some ways that the Kippers who used to complain about there being no distinction between LibLabCon seem to have become Blukip with nothing separating them from the Tories.

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  • Brexit   463 members have voted

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