GreenDevil

Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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5 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

Brexit is going down in the Lords

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-house-of-lords-customs-union-theresa-may-a8304791.html

And there is a massive march today.

The not so secret plan to kill Brexit is that the process is dragged out beyond 2022 and then a new Government can either cancel Art.50 or rejoin along with the Euro.

Happy days, we can all have Euros in our pockets by 2025!

Please come back to planet Earth :D

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5 hours ago, ZeroSumGame said:

I'm not sure London is lost. It voted REMAIN as you know. I'm not sure it will be leaving.

Are you expecting London to declare independence from the UK? I'd say that's unlikely.

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2 hours ago, dryrot said:

Look at Greece? Greece has been destroyed by your wonderful EU/Euro! Hungary's politics are a direct result of EU immigration policies. EU policies have spurred a sharp drift to the right in almost every election in EU countrues in the past year. And you STILL think the EU is fantastic!

No I don't think the EU is fantastic dryrot. Perhaps if you'd paid attention you will see I have admitted it has problems.

My point is that it's still 100x better than the politicians we have here and the fact that the UK is the epicentre of all major financial criminality.

What's your problem? Don't you know I support a hard Brexit?

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8 hours ago, ccc said:

We have been in the EU for almost all that time....

It's basic. Many people like myself have chosen to get rid of one of the incompetent, corrupt idiotic layers of government that lord over us.

Nobody has - or ever will - explain to me how that is a bad move. 

Whatever side you are on the logic in making that choice is black and white. It was a good one. 

well put.

Remainers always seem to me like people desperately clinging onto the handrail of the Titanic and pointing out how cold the water is.

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4 hours ago, pig said:

 

Oh ‘wrong type’. ;)

You mean the keep it the same/turn the clock back type of ‘revolution’?

No I don't. By the way I voted remain. Time travel unless you know otherwise is impossible. the future will have elements of the past but it will also forge a new way. that's the beauty of change. In fact from my observation and I refer to my second sentence it was the remainers who wanted to freeze time. The soft left depicting all leavers as blue collar supporting UKIPer's was deeply flawed and arrogant. Hence the 'wrong' type of change and result.  Change generally if meaningful is chaotic. A concept that many leavers realised and still voted for.

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2 hours ago, GregBowman said:

No I don't. By the way I voted remain. Time travel unless you know otherwise is impossible. the future will have elements of the past but it will also forge a new way. that's the beauty of change. In fact from my observation and I refer to my second sentence it was the remainers who wanted to freeze time. The soft left depicting all leavers as blue collar supporting UKIPer's was deeply flawed and arrogant. Hence the 'wrong' type of change and result.  Change generally if meaningful is chaotic. A concept that many leavers realised and still voted for.

That sounds made up. What evidence is there to suggest that many leavers realised that the change  would be chaotic? Why is chaotic change more or less meaningful than planned change?

The leaver campaign majored on the notion of free trade deals being simple and the whole process being easy. No one in the leave camp mentioned chaos.

Edited by IMHAL

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2 hours ago, Habeas Domus said:

well put.

Remainers always seem to me like people desperately clinging onto the handrail of the Titanic and pointing out how cold the water is.

I agree, Brexit is very much like the Titanic.:)

Best not to have sailed on the HMS Brexit in the first place.

Edited by IMHAL

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10 hours ago, IMHAL said:

That sounds made up. What evidence is there to suggest that many leavers realised that the change  would be chaotic? Why is chaotic change more or less meaningful than planned change?

The leaver campaign majored on the notion of free trade deals being simple and the whole process being easy. No one in the leave camp mentioned chaos.

Really ? what an omission !🤣🤣🤣

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22 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

Brexit is going down in the Lords

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-house-of-lords-customs-union-theresa-may-a8304791.html

And there is a massive march today.

The not so secret plan to kill Brexit is that the process is dragged out beyond 2022 and then a new Government can either cancel Art.50 or rejoin along with the Euro.

Happy days, we can all have Euros in our pockets by 2025!

Apparently about 1,000 people turned up for the "People's Vote" campaign - in (remainer) London! I'd have thought that Patrick Stewart could bring in half that in Star Trek & X Men fans alone, especially after national TV promotion. The 'Stop the War' march was 'massive' - look at how much effect that had.

Both parties in our duopoly are pro Brexit. The undemocratic Lib Dems have collapsed, and may even have their share of the vote further diminished by a new anti Brexit party. Either the Tories or Labour look likely to be in power for the foreseeable future - and both look extremely unlikely to cancel article 50. The main parties' Brexit position is so diametrically opposed to that of the Lib Dems, it's difficult to see either forming a coalition with them, even in the event of a hung parliament.

I find the remainer guess that a hard Brexit would one day result in us rejoining extremely hard to swallow; for 2 main reasons:

* Remainers believe that Leavers are easily led. In the unlikely event that we have a hard Brexit, and that it turns into a very bad thing, our political & propaganda establishment will relentlessly blame the EU, hardening anti EU feeling.

* We chose to leave the EU on our current good terms (vetos, no Euro, some (admittedly dodgy) opt out on future integration). It's difficult to believe that we'd choose to re-enter on bad, even more vassal state, terms.

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1 hour ago, GregBowman said:

Really ? what an omission !🤣🤣🤣

Depressingly predictable. Not even able to defend your own words either.

Edited by IMHAL

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46 minutes ago, highYield said:

Apparently about 1,000 people turned up for the "People's Vote" campaign - in (remainer) London! I'd have thought that Patrick Stewart could bring in half that in Star Trek & X Men fans alone, especially after national TV promotion. The 'Stop the War' march was 'massive' - look at how much effect that had.

Both parties in our duopoly are pro Brexit. The undemocratic Lib Dems have collapsed, and may even have their share of the vote further diminished by a new anti Brexit party. Either the Tories or Labour look likely to be in power for the foreseeable future - and both look extremely unlikely to cancel article 50. The main parties' Brexit position is so diametrically opposed to that of the Lib Dems, it's difficult to see either forming a coalition with them, even in the event of a hung parliament.

I find the remainer guess that a hard Brexit would one day result in us rejoining extremely hard to swallow; for 2 main reasons:

* Remainers believe that Leavers are easily led. In the unlikely event that we have a hard Brexit, and that it turns into a very bad thing, our political & propaganda establishment will relentlessly blame the EU, hardening anti EU feeling.

* We chose to leave the EU on our current good terms (vetos, no Euro, some (admittedly dodgy) opt out on future integration). It's difficult to believe that we'd choose to re-enter on bad, even more vassal state, terms.

Especially considering the EU is likely to be in a worse state than it is now.

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1 hour ago, IMHAL said:

Depressingly predictable. Not even able to defend your own words either.

Couldn't be a**** so in simple terms for you. Not all 17 million people who voted Brexit were swayed or informed by a high level campaign - James Dyson, Tim Martin and  a host of successful people who have been through and instigated change. Your point is they didn't know it would be chaotic in the short term....really ?

Change of this magnitude is always chaotic and the wise words of a brighter person than you come to mind. Mr Tyson 'Every person has a plan until they get punched in the face' Large change is chaotic - have you ever restructured a division, closed down a business try and planned carefully......I thought not

As for predictable hardly - I voted remain but am defending the intelligence of leavers unlike you. 

You probably haven't seen enough of it or been senior enough to instigate it. Don't worry you will still be able to get cheap EasyJet flights :lol:

Edited by GregBowman

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2 hours ago, highYield said:

<EDIT>.

* We chose to leave the EU on our current good terms (vetos, no Euro, some (admittedly dodgy) opt out on future integration). It's difficult to believe that we'd choose to re-enter on bad, even more vassal state, terms.

I think this is the plan in certain quarters though.  The idea is that things will be so bad we'll be begging to be let back in under any terms the EU dictate.

It's entirely possible this whole Brexit thing has been planned to achieve this, i.e. make the UK adopt the euro and Schengen, and get rid of the rebate.  We have a Peoples Vote (how did it get called this ????!!!!) to reverse article 50, and the EU say yes of course as long as you join as proper members.

This also demonstrates to the whole world that resistance is futile.

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30 minutes ago, kzb said:

I think this is the plan in certain quarters though.  The idea is that things will be so bad we'll be begging to be let back in under any terms the EU dictate.

It's entirely possible this whole Brexit thing has been planned to achieve this, i.e. make the UK adopt the euro and Schengen, and get rid of the rebate.  We have a Peoples Vote (how did it get called this ????!!!!) to reverse article 50, and the EU say yes of course as long as you join as proper members.

This also demonstrates to the whole world that resistance is futile.

The "Peoples' Vote" seems pretty laughable, with 1,000 people who could be bothered to turn up (on a Sunday!) and a desultory 4 MPs out of 650.

I don't think that it's possible that Brexit has been planned for us to leave on hard terms, then rejoin on worse terms. That would be an insanely risky plan for the vested interests of everyone involved - with very little benefit to anyone. Could write a long essay debunking that theory, but hopefully It can be essentially disproved with 2 simple facts:

* the establishment were almost unequivocally anti Brexit.

* politicians (from the EU to Westminster) just aren't that competent, or long term thinkers 

 

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5 hours ago, highYield said:

Apparently about 1,000 people turned up for the "People's Vote" campaign - in (remainer) London! I'd have thought that Patrick Stewart could bring in half that in Star Trek & X Men fans alone, especially after national TV promotion. The 'Stop the War' march was 'massive' - look at how much effect that had.

Both parties in our duopoly are pro Brexit. The undemocratic Lib Dems have collapsed, and may even have their share of the vote further diminished by a new anti Brexit party. Either the Tories or Labour look likely to be in power for the foreseeable future - and both look extremely unlikely to cancel article 50. The main parties' Brexit position is so diametrically opposed to that of the Lib Dems, it's difficult to see either forming a coalition with them, even in the event of a hung parliament.

I find the remainer guess that a hard Brexit would one day result in us rejoining extremely hard to swallow; for 2 main reasons:

* Remainers believe that Leavers are easily led. In the unlikely event that we have a hard Brexit, and that it turns into a very bad thing, our political & propaganda establishment will relentlessly blame the EU, hardening anti EU feeling.

* We chose to leave the EU on our current good terms (vetos, no Euro, some (admittedly dodgy) opt out on future integration). It's difficult to believe that we'd choose to re-enter on bad, even more vassal state, terms.

Even after a hard Brexit, I don’t believe that we’ll rejoin.

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3 hours ago, GregBowman said:

Couldn't be a**** so in simple terms for you. Not all 17 million people who voted Brexit were swayed or informed by a high level campaign - James Dyson, Tim Martin and  a host of successful people who have been through and instigated change. Your point is they didn't know it would be chaotic in the short term....really ?

Change of this magnitude is always chaotic and the wise words of a brighter person than you come to mind. Mr Tyson 'Every person has a plan until they get punched in the face' Large change is chaotic - have you ever restructured a division, closed down a business try and planned carefully......I thought not

As for predictable hardly - I voted remain but am defending the intelligence of leavers unlike you. 

You probably haven't seen enough of it or been senior enough to instigate it. Don't worry you will still be able to get cheap EasyJet flights :lol:

You said that many of those voters realised it would be chaotic....you have no evidence to support that.

You say that 'change if it is to be meaningful is chaotic' ....you have no evidence to support that.

Coming back with a little bluster is hardly tantamount to being correct or even convincing. I would have been quite happy  if you had said that it was just your opinion. Instead you seem very defensive and have needed to resort to insults. It must be a sign of your apparent higher intellect.

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2 hours ago, highYield said:

The "Peoples' Vote" seems pretty laughable, with 1,000 people who could be bothered to turn up (on a Sunday!) and a desultory 4 MPs out of 650.

I don't think that it's possible that Brexit has been planned for us to leave on hard terms, then rejoin on worse terms. That would be an insanely risky plan for the vested interests of everyone involved - with very little benefit to anyone. Could write a long essay debunking that theory, but hopefully It can be essentially disproved with 2 simple facts:

* the establishment were almost unequivocally anti Brexit.

* politicians (from the EU to Westminster) just aren't that competent, or long term thinkers 

 

I read somewhere that anything starting with  "The Peoples....." is always crap.

I never said it was the politicians behind this plan.

Anyhow let's hope you are right.

 

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Apparently, at the port of Bristol, for the last two years, exactly two containers per year have been opened for inspection.  And this was because there was prior intelligence about those containers.

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21 hours ago, GregBowman said:

No I don't. By the way I voted remain. Time travel unless you know otherwise is impossible. the future will have elements of the past but it will also forge a new way. that's the beauty of change. In fact from my observation and I refer to my second sentence it was the remainers who wanted to freeze time. The soft left depicting all leavers as blue collar supporting UKIPer's was deeply flawed and arrogant. Hence the 'wrong' type of change and result.  Change generally if meaningful is chaotic. A concept that many leavers realised and still voted for.

Almost everybody knows people on both sides how they’ve represented themselves in person or been appealed to by political parties and the media. The demographics on the referendum have been done to death here.

In short I’d imagine realistically there are few illusions on that count.  

IMHO touting ‘change’ as a rationale  is too often simply an attempt to evade criticism (whichever way you voted!) If you cannot persuade people of the merits of panicking over immigration, sovereignty, ‘control’ or whichever reactionary ideal, you can simply obscure specific objectives by saying ‘but we need change’. Taken at face value who is going to disagree with that ?

Yes it’s a clusterfeck but Id refine this perception  of ‘chaos’. What we effectively  have  is a white lie or set of white lies and an attempt to carefully manage them with a kind of unprincipled cognitive dissonance.

Therefore again deceptive at best to suggest the wheels have been  falling off due to some glamorous form of ‘chaos’.

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On 4/14/2018 at 3:24 PM, ccc said:

Could. 

Almost certainly won't. We all know this. 

The scare stories won't happen. It will be a damp squib and have far less day to day impact on the population of the UK. 

This is exactly what the EU are so scared of. 

A year after Brexit us all shrugging our shoulders and going "Ah - well - is that it ?"

Opens up numerous other populations to think the same.

The outstanding beauty of the internet and it's capacity to store up a fair proportion of 'well doesn't this make me look stupid' posts, is that but 5 months ago, your mantra, your absolute, ad nausea, chant to any implication that Brexit was bad for us, was 'but brexit hasn't happened yet', but now, according to you, it has.  That's all down to you being intransigent in your discussions, fearing being wrong, more than just having a discussion, and marks you down as the tool you are.

On 4/15/2018 at 10:28 AM, thehowler said:

Doesn't Art 50 end in March 2019? You'd have to go for another ref to take Euro, good luck with that.

It has to be extended, as we'll still be members of the EU until we leave, if we ever do.  All this can kicking is doing, is preparing us all for an election in which this will form the backbone of any popular vote.  My eldest and her ilk will be voting in the next one, and given 6 years would have passed, a lot of support for leave would have died off.

I can imagine the bed wetting when it happens.  I think it's almost an absolute that the conservatives will be out for a long time is they continue to shank the youth.

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4 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

The outstanding beauty of the internet and it's capacity to store up a fair proportion of 'well doesn't this make me look stupid' posts, is that but 5 months ago, your mantra, your absolute, ad nausea, chant to any implication that Brexit was bad for us, was 'but brexit hasn't happened yet', but now, according to you, it has.  That's all down to you being intransigent in your discussions, fearing being wrong, more than just having a discussion, and marks you down as the tool you are.

It has to be extended, as we'll still be members of the EU until we leave, if we ever do.  All this can kicking is doing, is preparing us all for an election in which this will form the backbone of any popular vote.  My eldest and her ilk will be voting in the next one, and given 6 years would have passed, a lot of support for leave would have died off.

I can imagine the bed wetting when it happens.  I think it's almost an absolute that the conservatives will be out for a long time is they continue to shank the youth.

People are constantly banging on about "how the EU is punishing us"...Err...no... I'm no lover of the EU, but they are exasperated at the ineptitude of the UK government who think they can have all the benefits of the single market whilst not wanting to abide by any of the obligations  that comes with it.  They think that they can voluntarily abide with what they like.

Perhaps an analogy that could be used is that the single market could effectively be seen a secure & fortified walled medieval city, where there is a market is held within its walls.  The UK is unhappy with it, thus the UK has decided to pitch its tent outside of this walled city.  The UK cannot go on and complain that they cannot trade as per usual (on the same terms) with those inside.

Edited by Dave Beans

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5 hours ago, pig said:

Almost everybody knows people on both sides how they’ve represented themselves in person or been appealed to by political parties and the media. The demographics on the referendum have been done to death here.

In short I’d imagine realistically there are few illusions on that count.  

IMHO touting ‘change’ as a rationale  is too often simply an attempt to evade criticism (whichever way you voted!) If you cannot persuade people of the merits of panicking over immigration, sovereignty, ‘control’ or whichever reactionary ideal, you can simply obscure specific objectives by saying ‘but we need change’. Taken at face value who is going to disagree with that ?

Yes it’s a clusterfeck but Id refine this perception  of ‘chaos’. What we effectively  have  is a white lie or set of white lies and an attempt to carefully manage them with a kind of unprincipled cognitive dissonance.

Therefore again deceptive at best to suggest the wheels have been  falling off due to some glamorous form of ‘chaos’.

Nicely put genuinely. I guess my view is there was a white lie on both sides and we are heading for a long overdue 'normal' recession, Brexit will be convenient for all concerned

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I think there are a few people on this thread who don't quite understand how the ignore function works. B):lol:

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