GreenDevil

Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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6 minutes ago, kzb said:

He didn't use the word "salary", it was "money" (from memory).  So "double the money" is what he said.

All you are saying I agree, but it is not the point.  The point is that management are filling roles by phoning up the agency, paying them "double the money" then saying they can't afford permanent staff.  This is not the message from the BBC TV (not the online article) report. 

https://improvement.nhs.uk/news-alerts/agency-caps-one-year-600m-saved-nhs-spending-still-too-high/

Agency staff costing NHS £250 million a month (in 2016). Double the money is what the staff get - then you have agency fees on top.

Edited by IMHAL

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11 minutes ago, ccc said:

Exactly. We don't need more people. In fact quite the opposite. And I am not talking GDP or whatever other nonsense reasons are provided. I am talking about quality of life. I simply don't understand people who think mass immigration will improve the quality of life in this country. Wherever it comes from. Absolutely delusional IMO.

Its been mentioned. The general consensus appears to be that Boris is waffling nonsense again. Shock.

It depends - the likely-hood is that things will now swing the other way. Kids won't see the point of staying here. Don't blame them really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/9584756/Emigration-from-Ireland-soars.html

 

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15 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

You have avoided the question. Bluster is a tool best left to cccertain individuals.

Avoiding the question - that is your speciality and your still doing it. 

As to intensely English- well I like the place I was born here and I find the history, countryside etc rather appealing. Do i need another reason?

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23 minutes ago, ccc said:

Its been mentioned. The general consensus appears to be that Boris is waffling nonsense again. Shock.

Do you not think he is "taking one for the team" - i.e. diversionary tactics to try and move attention away from the fact that Macron told May in no uncertain terms that cake can only be had or eaten, but not both... ;)

Boris does a good confused, slightly drunk uncle routine, but the reality is that he is a hard nosed operator. He doesn't believe in a bridge any more than I do.

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8 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

It depends - the likely-hood is that things will now swing the other way. Kids won't see the point of staying here. Don't blame them really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/9584756/Emigration-from-Ireland-soars.html

 

So you think in the near future we will have net emigration figures from the UK of ~500k per year ? :lol:

Everything is possible. However I wouldn't bet much on it.

Would be great if that happened for a number of years IMO.

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6 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Do you not think he is "taking one for the team" - i.e. diversionary tactics to try and move attention away from the fact that Macron told May in no uncertain terms that cake can only be had or eaten, but not both... ;)

Boris does a good confused, slightly drunk uncle routine, but the reality is that he is a hard nosed operator. He doesn't believe in a bridge any more than I do.

Quite possible. As for the whole Calais thing. Its bluff from the French. Their chat of just leaving it open and us having to pay for the security etc. is never going to happen. Like most things in this debacle - an agreement will be reached behind the scenes with people in suits that both sides shrug their shoulders and go ' ah ok then' to in the end.

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Just now, debtlessmanc said:

1 - Avoiding the question - that is your speciality and your still doing it. 

2 - As to intensely English- well I like the place I was born here and I find the history, countryside etc rather appealing. Do i need another reason?

2 - Thank you for your honesty. No other reason required. There are some nice parts in every county.

1 - I am not sure what you are referring to?

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22 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

2 - Thank you for your honesty. No other reason required. There are some nice parts in every county.

1 - I am not sure what you are referring to?

Are you a native speaker? Ie born in an English speaking country?

Edited by debtlessmanc

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34 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

https://improvement.nhs.uk/news-alerts/agency-caps-one-year-600m-saved-nhs-spending-still-too-high/

Agency staff costing NHS £250 million a month (in 2016). Double the money is what the staff get - then you have agency fees on top.

https://improvement.nhs.uk/about-us/corporate-publications/publications/foi-agency-nursing-spend-dec/

Absolutely incredible.  We are not allowed to know how much is spent on agency nurses.  Freedom of Information request denied.

See what a rabbit hole you go down when you question a seemingly simple BBC TV report.  The report being that nurses are so overworked that they give up and become jobless in preference.

 

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49 minutes ago, ccc said:

So you think in the near future we will have net emigration figures from the UK of ~500k per year ? :lol:

Everything is possible. However I wouldn't bet much on it.

Would be great if that happened for a number of years IMO.

It depends on who leaves ;)

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1 hour ago, kzb said:

Well finally I got a glimpse of the truth last night, and from an unexpected source as well.

Andy Burnham on QT:  nurses are demoralised because they find themselves working next to an Agency nurse, doing the same job, but for double the salary.

So putting that together with answers on here about moving to "other jobs" and "private sector health roles" we are finally getting to it I think.  We are indeed getting to an answer which satisfies me in my bubble.

So when a politician says something that fits your uniformed view you just agree with it. That's not really the way to either become informed or get at the truth is it.

For his comment to have any relevance, it would have to reflect a massive increase in the use of agency nurses over the past year. Given that there has been a campaign to reduce agency nursing over the past three years that seems unlikely.

His comment was also untrue, my wife tells me that average employing agency nurses costs no more than permanent staff - the headline figures ignore the fact that the agency nurses don't get 8 weeks leave per year, the near 30% cost of pension contributions, sick leave or paid training. 

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2 hours ago, ccc said:

It's nothing to do with spelling. Its to do with how you put certain sentences together and use certain words.

Its very easy to spot the difference between someone typing on the net who just doesn't have the greatest grammar but is a native English speaker - and someone whose grammar may actually be better - but isn't a native English speaker. You are in the second category.

I notice straight away after you slip in the 'Worked in London 35 years ago' chat. Nice attempt to distract. Incredibly obvious though.  :D

If someone is on here telling native Brits what they should and shouldn't do - and yet are not originally from here. They should make that very clear. Otherwise they are taking the piss. Entirely reasonable to me.

As I have said already - if it was the other way around I would expect exactly the same.

I've read a bit about these 'tests' being pretty useless ?

As for your first point - agreed. People should be straight up about their vested interests on this subject.

Nearly every one of the regular Remainer advocates posters has some sort of skin on the game in regards to the EU. That's very important IMO. They are looking at this from their own selfish point of view. Which is entirely understandable. However it should be made clear so at least others know what their position is.

Most Brexit voters did not vote that way because their immediate personal future would be bettered. Its a long term thing. In fact many Brexit voters did so in the knowledge that their own personal future may be negatively impacted in the short term.

That's one very large difference I see between the two sides of this debate in general.  

So Remainers want to be better off in the short term and Leavers want to be better off in the long term. Sounds like the both have skin in the game (and are looking at it from their own selfish point of view) to me. 

So no real difference then, just another logic fail. 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

So when a politician says something that fits your uniformed view you just agree with it. That's not really the way to either become informed or get at the truth is it (1) .

For his comment to have any relevance, it would have to reflect a massive increase in the use of agency nurses over the past year. Given that there has been a campaign to reduce agency nursing over the past three years that seems unlikely (2).

His comment was also untrue, my wife tells me that average employing agency nurses costs no more than permanent staff - the headline figures ignore the fact that the agency nurses don't get 8 weeks leave per year, the near 30% cost of pension contributions, sick leave or paid training (2). 

(1)  But the original BBC TV message was even more uninformed and also was a bubble viewpoint conforming to an expectation.

(2) If an agency nurse does not cost any more, why is there a campaign to reduce agency spending by the NHS, and why are the results of that campaign trumpeted as financial savings?   Also, why are we not allowed to know how much the NHS spends on Agency nurses?

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1 hour ago, ccc said:

So you think in the near future we will have net emigration figures from the UK of ~500k per year ? :lol:

Everything is possible. However I wouldn't bet much on it.

Would be great if that happened for a number of years IMO.

How did you come across to the amount "net emigration figures from the UK of ~500k per year" ?

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1 hour ago, kzb said:

Andy Burnham on QT:  nurses are demoralised because they find themselves working next to an Agency nurse, doing the same job, but for double the salary.

Agency nurses have been around since the 70s though, so why have they suddenly started caring now?

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1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

Are you a native speaker? Ie born in an English speaking country?

Probably.

If I said yes, would it make any difference?  As this Brexit debate has shown, those with entrenched opinions seldom change them.

I voted remain, obviously, and thats why I am here debating this, either way, there is no way to prove that you or I are anymore entitled that the next man. 

Also, I don't feel the need to declare my genetic hertiage when some idiot is out there 'furyner hunting'' - it was either a coincidence or you felt the need to declare yourself a part of the pack. It could be a sign of insecurity you know.

With regard to the spelling/wording - those who look for certain things will use their confirmation bias to find that which they are looking for. Others would say, hey that's a bit of dyslexia I see.

 

Edited by IMHAL

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12 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Agency nurses have been around since the 70s though, so why have they suddenly started caring now?

Maybe the pay disparity is much larger and the numbers much greater. 

But more to the point, agency is used as the first port of call, instead of one-offs to cover for sick absences etc.

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6 hours ago, ccc said:

Because that would mean we had someone not even from the UK coming on here telling us from the UK how wrong we were to vote a certain way......

And even most remainers would probably agree that's taking the absolute piss. 

Well the English voted a certain way, but you Northern foreigners voted a different way.

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30 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

So Remainers want to be better off in the short term and Leavers want to be better off in the long term. Sounds like the both have skin in the game (and are looking at it from their own selfish point of view) to me. 

So no real difference then, just another logic fail. 

 

 

No its not. I am just pointing out something you don't want to face up to. Brexiters generally have the balls to vote for something that they feel is in the best interests of the country in the long term - even if it will hit them personally.

Remainers generally are voting for themselves.

24 minutes ago, rollover said:

How did you come across to the amount "net emigration figures from the UK of ~500k per year" ?

Have a google as to what ~ refers to.

:D

Feel free to provide the official numbers from the last 5 years if you wish. Would be interesting actually. Off the top of my head its around 500k. And that's official. Actual numbers are likely much, much higher.

8 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

Probably.

If I said yes, would it make any difference?  As this Brexit debate has shown, those with entrenched opinions seldom change them.

I voted remain, obviously, and thats why I am here debating this, either way, there is no way to prove that you or I are anymore entitled that the next man. 

Also, I don't feel the need to declare my genetic hertiage when some idiot is out there 'furyner hunting'' - it was either a coincidence or you felt the need to declare yourself a part of the pack. It could be a sign of insecurity you know.

With regard to the spelling/wording - those who look for certain things will use their confirmation bias to find that which they are looking for. Others would say, hey that's a bit of dyslexia I see.

 

:lol:

Oh come on.

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2 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Well the English voted a certain way, but you Northern foreigners voted a different way.

It was a UK vote. So those from England and those from Scotland are perfectly entitled to their opinions.

If someone from Slovenia wants to chip in - then that's fine -  however they better make their background very clear. Otherwise. And I shall repeat for the third time.

They are taking the piss.

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39 minutes ago, ccc said:

No its not. I am just pointing out something you don't want to face up to. Brexiters generally have the balls to vote for something that they feel is in the best interests of the country in the long term - even if it will hit them personally.

Remainers generally are voting for themselves.

I voted remain for the good of the country. But then I am a curious person. After deep thought, reading lots of stuff from different sources, it was better for the UK to stay than leave.

I don't take the UK government who have fecked the country for the last 40 years as anything other than conniving liars. More fool anybody that believe what they say.

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2 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I voted remain for the good of the country. But then I am a curious person. After deep thought, reading lots of stuff from different sources, it was better for the UK to stay than leave.

I don't take the UK government who have fecked the country for the last 40 years as anything other than conniving liars. More fool anybody that believe what they say.

Well that's fine. If I remember correctly [Unless I am confusing you with someone else] you also lost money on your business since the Brexit vote and would do better personally if we didn't vote Brexit....

That had zero influence on your vote ?

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38 minutes ago, ccc said:

No its not. I am just pointing out something you don't want to face up to. Brexiters generally have the balls to vote for something that they feel is in the best interests of the country in the long term - even if it will hit them personally.

We have been round this loop before. To remind you, because I know your memory is a flaky as your logic.

I did quite well out of the Leave vote and won't be negatively affected by Brexit, as I am well past the stage of needing to work and plan to retire around the time we actually Brexit. 

I voted Remain because I think overall the country would be better off by staying in the EU than leaving. I still think that, mainly because to date no one has been able to articulate a credible vision for how a successful Brexit will be achieved.

Taking the counter side to your view of Remainers, it would be easy to characterise Leave voters as a bunch of benefit claiming losers, who need someone to blame for their failure to achieve much in life and cannot face looking in the mirror.      

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1 hour ago, ccc said:

Have a google as to what ~ refers to.

:D

Feel free to provide the official numbers from the last 5 years if you wish. Would be interesting actually. Off the top of my head its around 500k. And that's official. Actual numbers are likely much, much higher.

 

I didn't ask you about ~. Now, you're just being silly.

What is the official number you are talking about - around 500k. I think you hugely misrepresent the net UK migration number.

Because it is coming from you I think it is done deliberately. Could you please correct yourself?

You've been told before, numbers are not your things.

Edited by rollover

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17 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I voted remain for the good of the country. But then I am a curious person. After deep thought, reading lots of stuff from different sources, it was better for the UK to stay than leave.

I don't take the UK government who have fecked the country for the last 40 years as anything other than conniving liars. More fool anybody that believe what they say.

I took the view that the current path was disaster and something had to happen to shake it up.  Yes governments are conniving liars, so again we need to send them a clear message they've been found out.

Did you say earlier that you live in California?

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