thecrashingisles Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: I wonder, once full one federalisation is on the cards, that some of the EU27 decide enough is enough...We shall see.. You obviously been looking into your mystical crystal ball again... Define 'full' federalisation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: Define 'full' federalisation. Ask Juncker... https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-09-13/juncker-wants-a-u-s-of-europe-does-anyone-else Its the next logical step, as the article suggests... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noallegiance Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: The EU isn't going anywhere and will be the indispensable political structure between European nations for the rest of our lifetimes. I'm sticking this one in the same basket that has that much-repeated line on another thread where some uberseer or other was adamant the the US$ was well on its way to 122. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 7 hours ago, Noallegiance said: I'm sticking this one in the same basket that has that much-repeated line on another thread where some uberseer or other was adamant the the US$ was well on its way to 122. From memory it got there. The EU isn't going anywhere, it just isn't, there's too much support for it to go. Yes, some states may leave, but some also will join and once we get proper, or further integration, it will be further set in stone. Anyone that thinks this is going to fail isn't thinking clearly. I'd also venture, that if we did leave, in any meaningful way, we'll be back in before my eldest gets married. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Quote UK Brexit plan 'beggars belief' Nicola Sturgeon has said it "beggars belief" that the UK is unable to say what relationship it wants with the EU 18 months on from the Brexit vote. The first minister's comments come ahead of the publication of a Scottish government assessment on the impact of Brexit on Scotland's economy. BBC It is close to impossible to please everyone in Tory party, especially the hard right corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noallegiance Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 hours ago, HairyOb1 said: From memory it got there. From fact, not even close: https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/index/dxy/charts Blimey. A fact in the Brexit thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 14 hours ago, thecrashingisles said: European sovereignty is only meaningful in the 21st century if we are united. No individual European country has the capacity to be sovereign in a globalised world. Switzerland? Norway? Monaco? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 50 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Switzerland? Norway? Monaco? IIRC the first 2 support Schengen. Won't wash here for the leavers. Monaco is a micro-state - like Switzerland, needs to cover up the elites tax dealings and offer low-tax - so not fully members. It still has a virtual full access route through France. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 3 hours ago, HairyOb1 said: The EU isn't going anywhere, it just isn't, there's too much support for it to go. Yes, some states may leave, but some also will join and once we get proper, or further integration, it will be further set in stone. Anyone that thinks this is going to fail isn't thinking clearly There is zero chance that citizens of the central European nations will go back to having borders between their countries. The EU may lose another member here or there because you can't help populist stupidity. By and large it has done the job designed fantastically well and Europe is now too integrated to split again and risk descent back into the bad days. The EU isn't going anywhere, despite what brexiters hope for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 On 12/01/2018 at 11:15 PM, IMHAL said: The only benefit is that it pacifies some mild brexiteers but leaves the hard brexiteers cold, mainly because of FoM. All brexiters are hard brexiters imo. Is there any brexiter who doesn't want to end FoM? Even those who say they don't always find a way to include it in any "deal" when you ask them what they want our final relationship to look like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 hours ago, rollover said: It is close to impossible to please everyone in Tory party, especially the hard right corner. On Farages radio show this morning - Caller: “we have all the aces I just can’t understand why we don’t play them’ There’s no pleasing people whose credulity is impervious to reality playing out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 54 minutes ago, jonb2 said: IIRC the first 2 support Schengen. Won't wash here for the leavers. Monaco is a micro-state - like Switzerland, needs to cover up the elites tax dealings and offer low-tax - so not fully members. It still has a virtual full access route through France. One toe in the bath whilst keeping sovereign on the edge. Sounds good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, dugsbody said: All brexiters are hard brexiters imo. Is there any brexiter who doesn't want to end FoM? Even those who say they don't always find a way to include it in any "deal" when you ask them what they want our final relationship to look like. It’s about democracy. Ask Tony Benn or Dennis Skinner. https://youtu.be/f0wFii8klNg https://youtu.be/3xIpjA6dol8 Edited January 14, 2018 by GrizzlyDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Noallegiance said: From fact, not even close: https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/index/dxy/charts Blimey. A fact in the Brexit thread. Well you didn't have to wait long XE Currency Converter: 14 Jan 2016 11:39 EUR to USD 1 EUR =1.22021USD http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=1&From=EUR&To=USD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: It’s about democracy. Ask Tony Benn or Dennis Skinner. https://youtu.be/f0wFii8klNg https://youtu.be/3xIpjA6dol8 So you support a Switzerland type deal, retain freedom of movement and treaty based access to the single market? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said: Switzerland? Norway? Monaco? UK no question mark required. The real question is not about whether we are sovereign. it's about what power and influence we have in the wider world. Post Brexit we will have less of both and will find ourselves have to follow EU and US rules, without any say in setting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca13 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, HairyOb1 said: Double post Edited January 14, 2018 by macca13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca13 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, HairyOb1 said: From memory it got there. The EU isn't going anywhere, it just isn't, there's too much support for it to go. Yes, some states may leave, but some also will join and once we get proper, or further integration, it will be further set in stone. Anyone that thinks this is going to fail isn't thinking clearly. I'd also venture, that if we did leave, in any meaningful way, we'll be back in before my eldest gets married. So if Ukraine joined or turkey.. what sort of Europe are we heading towards? Ukraine has some nice people, but it’s more corrupt than Russia for my experience.. that sort of immigration to the U.K. would be as welcome as the Romanian gypsies.. Turkey still pushing to legalise child rape.. they would be a fantastic addition to the project.. plus it’s an open door to the Middle East where terrorist attacks are a daily ocurance.. If countries leave and others join it would be a scramble to the bottom.. Italy leaves and Ukrain joins causing a hard boarder with Russia.. i thought a United States of Europe was about stopping war not creating it.. I don’t think you appreciate how fed up everyone across Europe is with immigration.. i predict the continued increase in the populist vote.. I think a few more years of getting blown up and raped by immigrants will cause a le pen in France, or the eastern bloc countries to further detach themselves from this evil that is being put upon the EU citizens by elites. maybe that’s the plan, make us all poor so we can be controlled Edited January 14, 2018 by macca13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 15 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: UK no question mark required. The real question is not about whether we are sovereign. it's about what power and influence we have in the wider world. Post Brexit we will have less of both and will find ourselves have to follow EU and US rules, without any say in setting them. I think this is the nub of the sovereignty issue. In an interconnected world your sovereignty is defined by your influence over your (or all) ‘connections’ as much as your specific ‘node’ not least because the former sustains latter. In Brexits case balance vs no balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 25 minutes ago, macca13 said: So if Ukraine joined or turkey.. what sort of Europe are we heading towards? Ukraine has some nice people, but it’s more corrupt than Russia for my experience.. that sort of immigration to the U.K. would be as welcome as the Romanian gypsies.. Turkey still pushing to legalise child rape.. they would be a fantastic addition to the project.. plus it’s an open door to the Middle East where terrorist attacks are a daily ocurance.. If countries leave and others join it would be a scramble to the bottom.. Italy leaves and Ukrain joins causing a hard boarder with Russia.. i thought a United States of Europe was about stopping war not creating it.. I don’t think you appreciate how fed up everyone across Europe is with immigration.. i predict the continued increase in the populist vote.. I think a few more years of getting blown up and raped by immigrants will cause a le pen in France, or the eastern bloc countries to further detach themselves from this evil that is being put upon the EU citizens by elites. maybe that’s the plan, make us all poor so we can be controlled If that’s the plan, Brexit is certainly rushing towards it at full speed. Stoking fears of helpless Brits up against furreners as raping pillagers after our children should help the rise of populism nicely - in which case it’s not really a prediction is it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, pig said: If that’s the plan, Brexit is certainly rushing towards it at full speed. Stoking fears of helpless Brits up against furreners as raping pillagers after our children should help the rise of populism nicely - in which case it’s not really a prediction is it ? There has to be a happy medium between stoking fears of the population and not reporting facts. Unfortunately the whole issue is politicised and therefore so full of misinformation as to make any meaningful debate impossible. I like the French solution simply make it illegal to collect any kind of information about jobs, crime, political views etc which record a persons ethnicity. You can then simply state you are not racist and no one can demonstrate otherwise edit to add- the point I was making that a lot of people’s concerns about immigratibo are over personal experience not being consistent with govt figures- ie that they are being lied to, a pretty serious thing if true. Edited January 14, 2018 by debtlessmanc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said: There has to be a happy medium between stoking fears of the population and not reporting facts. Unfortunately the whole issue is politicised and therefore so full of misinformation as to make any meaningful debate impossible. I like the French solution simply make it illegal to collect any kind of information about jobs, crime, political views etc which record a persons ethnicity. You can then simply state you are not racist and no one can demonstrate otherwise edit to add- the point I was making that a lot of people’s concerns about immigratibo are over personal experience not being consistent with govt figures- ie that they are being lied to, a pretty serious thing if true. Well I guess there normally is a happy medium as ‘stoking fears’ and ‘not reporting facts’ tends to go hand in hand. I don’t think ‘simply stating facts’ is quite enough to enable people to get away with racism either though - no doubt the UKIP acolyte exposed for her attack on Meghan Markle has used (abused?) plenty of ‘facts’ along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Quote When it comes to a second referendum, our best advice comes from the EU diplomat telling us to 'stop dicking around' “Do what the f**k you want but stop dicking around,” advice issued by a nameless EU diplomat when The Daily Telegraph’s Brussels correspondent asked him what he thought about the prospect of a second Brexit referendum. Independent I think EU will appreciate if Britain will be more clear about Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said: There has to be a happy medium between stoking fears of the population and not reporting facts. Unfortunately the whole issue is politicised and therefore so full of misinformation as to make any meaningful debate impossible. I like the French solution simply make it illegal to collect any kind of information about jobs, crime, political views etc which record a persons ethnicity. You can then simply state you are not racist and no one can demonstrate otherwise edit to add- the point I was making that a lot of people’s concerns about immigratibo are over personal experience not being consistent with govt figures- ie that they are being lied to, a pretty serious thing if true. Well I guess there normally is a happy medium as ‘stoking fears’ and ‘not reporting facts’ tends to go hand in hand. I don’t think ‘simply stating facts’ is quite enough to enable people to get away with racism either though - no doubt the UKIP acolyte exposed for her attack on Meghan Markle has used (abused?) plenty of ‘facts’ along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 49 minutes ago, pig said: Well I guess there normally is a happy medium as ‘stoking fears’ and ‘not reporting facts’ tends to go hand in hand. I don’t think ‘simply stating facts’ is quite enough to enable people to get away with racism either though - no doubt the UKIP acolyte exposed for her attack on Meghan Markle has used (abused?) plenty of ‘facts’ along the way. A modern state cannot plan infrastructue, schools health etc unless it knows how many people live in the country, kind of obvious. It is also clear that our govt either doesnt know or doesnt want to say. I am just be a pragmatist, in fact if some kind of amnesty of illegals would help this problem it should be considered. But giving up on all sorts of information gathering just beacuse some daft bimbo girlfriend of a fringe politician is worred about meghan merkle is crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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