Guest Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 22 minutes ago, pig said: Unfortunately not - and I'd argue things look like they are going to get way way worse before they get better. For example we are probably a couple of years if not months away from suddenly not being able to trust any video 'record' or even 'live' recording. As noted up thread I'm with you in that it has made me think hard about the traditional inadequacies of the relationship between the media, the populace and politics. It was a kind of messed up tribal set-up. You read newspapers that told you or nudged you into what to think by rich British businessmen with part selfish part national interest. Habit and mental laziness might lock you down, but there was always the option of reading another newspaper. In absolute principle of course nothing has changed from that situation - other than global interests now have access to your mind almost literally every second of the day which basically means if you're coming unchanged and unprepared from the former situation (in which arguable people were already coping inadequately) in practical terms something really has changed 'in principle'. Think we're agreed that individualised targeting of adverts/propaganda has only just begun, and that the leave campaign were in front of the remainers on that front. I don't see how we can tell the extent which the targeted leave fake news compared with / balanced the massive wall of remain fake news from the establishment. What can't really be argued against is that leave ran a more effective campaign than remain. The traditional fake leave news from the establishment 'we're all doomed if we leave, doomed I tell you' may have even worked in remain's favour - as people are wiser to traditional propaganda than the new targeted stuff. IMO, the most pernicious fake news in the whole mess is the 'most leavers are stupid racists, which is why they voted leave' meme pushed by primarily the BBC, but also the Guardian & Independent. Not only is this fake news being deployed in order to overturn the 2nd democratic vote most of us have had in our lives (not merely influence it beforehand) but it has also hugely damaged the UK's international standing. Suppose that the BBC with it's supposed independence can't say 'most people voted leave because they've had enough of the useless bloody politicians and/or they're worried about their jobs, livelihoods and ability to support their families in the future' - but the effectiveness with which they've directed attention (blame even) away from the Tories (who are almost wholly responsible for bringing, accidentally winning, and implementing Brexit after all) onto the poor old voter is astonishing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 22 minutes ago, pig said: Shall we do this in pictures then ? What do those pictures have to do with Johnny Furrener? Yes you could argue that some newspapers are both pro-Brexit and pro-HPI, but that is a different argument. it's no logical explanation of your response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dryrot Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 43 minutes ago, kzb said: What do those pictures have to do with Johnny Furrener? Yes you could argue that some newspapers are both pro-Brexit and pro-HPI, but that is a different argument. it's no logical explanation of your response. And some regular Parsons Green commuters might have sympathy with the headline #2... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dryrot Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, HairyOb1 said: Or some people could not be listening to all the MSM and simply believe, ideologically, that we're European, need to start thinking in those terms to prosper moving forward, not become some banana republic tax haven, playground for the wealthy... If I was asked whom to trust more, to look after me and my family, and was given a choice of the UK government, or the EU, I'd lean heavily towards the EU. (Also, alcohol taxes are much lower on the continent!) Luxembourg? wrt para 2, I used to know the late Auberon Waugh. I admired his writing hugely. He was a staunch pro-European, and often stated he would rather be ruled by Belgian ticket inspectors than the UK Parliament. I think it was his reporting of the Biafran War and the starvation there that affected his - er - respect for HM Government... Edited September 19, 2017 by dryrot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 1 hour ago, highYield said: Think we're agreed that individualised targeting of adverts/propaganda has only just begun, and that the leave campaign were in front of the remainers on that front. I don't see how we can tell the extent which the targeted leave fake news compared with / balanced the massive wall of remain fake news from the establishment. What can't really be argued against is that leave ran a more effective campaign than remain. The traditional fake leave news from the establishment 'we're all doomed if we leave, doomed I tell you' may have even worked in remain's favour - as people are wiser to traditional propaganda than the new targeted stuff. IMO, the most pernicious fake news in the whole mess is the 'most leavers are stupid racists, which is why they voted leave' meme pushed by primarily the BBC, but also the Guardian & Independent. Not only is this fake news being deployed in order to overturn the 2nd democratic vote most of us have had in our lives (not merely influence it beforehand) but it has also hugely damaged the UK's international standing. Suppose that the BBC with it's supposed independence can't say 'most people voted leave because they've had enough of the useless bloody politicians and/or they're worried about their jobs, livelihoods and ability to support their families in the future' - but the effectiveness with which they've directed attention (blame even) away from the Tories (who are almost wholly responsible for bringing, accidentally winning, and implementing Brexit after all) onto the poor old voter is astonishing. No that was pushed, assumed and exploited mainly by the pro-Brexit press way before anybody even knew what Brexit was, but latterly by the second incarnation of UKIP (ie Farage). Up thread there was talk of families splitting up over this. I'll wager that comes after decades of tolerating stupid racist MSM stories lying on the dining room table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 51 minutes ago, kzb said: What do those pictures have to do with Johnny Furrener? Yes you could argue that some newspapers are both pro-Brexit and pro-HPI, but that is a different argument. it's no logical explanation of your response. Ok some press has highlighted johhny furrier as being cause of all our ills. 6 minutes ago, dryrot said: And some regular Parsons Green commuters might have sympathy with the headline #2... ...and this cocktrumpet buys into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, dryrot said: And some regular Parsons Green commuters might have sympathy with the headline #2... Absolutely See kzb ? Dryrot gets it why not you 56 minutes ago, kzb said: What do those pictures have to do with Johnny Furrener? Yes you could argue that some newspapers are both pro-Brexit and pro-HPI, but that is a different argument. it's no logical explanation of your response. Are you taking the p1ss now ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 1 hour ago, highYield said: Think we're agreed that individualised targeting of adverts/propaganda has only just begun, and that the leave campaign were in front of the remainers on that front. I don't see how we can tell the extent which the targeted leave fake news compared with / balanced the massive wall of remain fake news from the establishment. What can't really be argued against is that leave ran a more effective campaign than remain. The traditional fake leave news from the establishment 'we're all doomed if we leave, doomed I tell you' may have even worked in remain's favour - as people are wiser to traditional propaganda than the new targeted stuff. IMO, the most pernicious fake news in the whole mess is the 'most leavers are stupid racists, which is why they voted leave' meme pushed by primarily the BBC, but also the Guardian & Independent. Not only is this fake news being deployed in order to overturn the 2nd democratic vote most of us have had in our lives (not merely influence it beforehand) but it has also hugely damaged the UK's international standing. Suppose that the BBC with it's supposed independence can't say 'most people voted leave because they've had enough of the useless bloody politicians and/or they're worried about their jobs, livelihoods and ability to support their families in the future' - but the effectiveness with which they've directed attention (blame even) away from the Tories (who are almost wholly responsible for bringing, accidentally winning, and implementing Brexit after all) onto the poor old voter is astonishing. Looks at government demographic data proving these leave folk less intelligent, educated and scratches head. As Will Self said: 'Not all leavers are racist, but all racists are leavers'. Logically, he's correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, pig said: Absolutely See kzb ? Dryrot gets it why not you Are you taking the p1ss now ? No I am not taking the p!ss and I still don't get it. Or maybe I do all too well. IF you had said, some MSM, e.g the Express is both pro-HPI and pro-Brexit in the first place, that would have been a valid aside to my point. But you did not. You put something about Johnny Furrener. Your pictures were an attempt to deflect argument away from that illogical response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, kzb said: No I am not taking the p!ss and I still don't get it. Or maybe I do all too well. IF you had said, some MSM, e.g the Express is both pro-HPI and pro-Brexit in the first place, that would have been a valid aside to my point. But you did not. You put something about Johnny Furrener. Your pictures were an attempt to deflect argument away from that illogical response. They weren't, it was, from my take, saying a lot of the MSM were quick, and still are, to blame everything on foreigners. Oh, and the EU. If you're denying that, then, well, as I said before, go you. Still not apologising for getting it all wrong about me, which states more about you than anything else. Edited September 19, 2017 by HairyOb1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unexpected Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: Looks at government demographic data proving these leave folk less intelligent, educated and scratches head. As Will Self said: 'Not all leavers are racist, but all racists are leavers'. Logically, he's correct. The area of London where I live has the highest percentage of white inhabitants but also the highest percentage of remain voters. This seems to imply some racism amongst some remainers does it not? Also there are many racists making money off migrants such as Slumlords who take advantage of the desperate migrants but would vote remain to protect their income. Therefore your all racists are leavers is factually incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Unexpected said: The area of London where I live has the highest percentage of white inhabitants but also the highest percentage of remain voters. This seems to imply some racism amongst some remainers does it not? Also there are many racists making money off migrants such as Slumlords who take advantage of the desperate migrants but would vote remain to protect their income. Therefore, in my opinion, using heresy and basically making shit up on the fly, your all racists are leavers is factually incorrect. Corrected for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, highYield said: That is perhaps laying it on a little thick. We've had centuries of propaganda from our press, and arguably the state broadcasting corporation. Big data manipulation of social media seems not much more than an evolution of existing practices. One can target relatively wealthy old buffers through the Telegraph - or through targeted FB campaigns masterminded by big data. Looks like the Leave campaign may currently be at the front of the evolution of the targeting of fake news, but they won't be the last. How does one compare the effect of fake leave news through e.g. FB to fake remain news like Obama's 'back of the queue' to Dave's WW3? Actually HY I really do think it's different this time. The big-tech platforms have more power than any other previous corporations (read monopoly) since they are so pervasive and control the attention (minds) of their users. The papers and TV are dying. We all know and complain about the head-in-screen pose of walkers, travelers and diners. This means that by far more people are being influenced by what they see here. They are truly addictive for many, and designed with this purpose. For example, Apple employs neuro-marketing, a new science of increasing the dopamine reward system - as does Facebook and Amazon with their one-click. Never before have we seen such a system. There's an excellent book by Tim Wu called The Attention Merchants which describes the huge money involved in managing engagement and ensuring you don't leave their walled gardens. Not wearing my tin foil hat I think Cambridge Analytica are just the tip of the iceberg. It's one of the main reasons I voted remain. This country with its current government will do nothing to stop the invasion without rules of these companies. The EU have fired their guns a few times. Edited September 19, 2017 by jonb2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 12 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: They weren't, it was, from my take, saying a lot of the MSM were quick, and still are, to blame everything on foreigners. Oh, and the EU. If you're denying that, then, well, as I said before, go you.Still not apologising for getting it all wrong about me, which states more about you than anything else. But that is nothing to do with the point I was making. It may or may not be true, it is irrelevant. I'll have to check back and see if there is anything to apologise for. Was it about equating Facebook with all social media? If so I am sorry but again it was not the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 7 hours ago, HairyOb1 said: Maybe they knew they didn't need to test yours. What did you vote again Completely contra what I have been told; I spent 6 months in 17 countries in the EU last year, work there at least once a month. I am getting a lot of yawning about brexit; watching news channels sees it get little attention and most of the people I speak to either think it's not going to happen now, or couldn't care less. The overall reaction I am getting is for us to just leave, get it over with, they're happy. I do too, and I think it's coming quick smart. I think this is what we're leading too. I am looking forward to May's speech on Friday to see if Boris does have any power, or that she's going to accept this longer transition period. This is what I am getting too. It's becoming a messy divorce; where once there was common ground, now there's animosity, which means it's not going to end well, as it never does. Boris even admitting, after a year of telling us we'd get a cracking deal, that no one can negotiate with the EU and get a good deal. Something I've been screaming since we planned the referendum, Nobody knows what IQ scores people who voted either way have. Not that it matters anyway. I'm just pointing out when people talk nonsense. Happy to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 2 hours ago, kzb said: Yes I'd agree with that statement. What I think is very strange is this: Almost everyone on here believes the MSM and other establishment are defending HPI for all they are worth. The BBC, the papers, they are all about ramping property prices. The alternative view hardly gets a look in. People on here think the population are being shamelessly manipulated by the system, including by all "the experts". Yet when it comes to membership of the EU, those self same people suddenly start to implicitly believe in what they are told by that very system (and experts) that promulgates HPI. When it's ramping property prices they are lying cheating scumbags, the lot of them. When it comes to EU membership those same people and organisations can be trusted implicitly to tell us the whole truth. Excellent point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 37 minutes ago, ccc said: Excellent point. Ta ! It seems to be beyond some people on here, you must have a higher IQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 19 minutes ago, kzb said: Ta ! It seems to be beyond some people on here, you must have a higher IQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 1 hour ago, HairyOb1 said: Looks at government demographic data proving these leave folk less intelligent, educated and scratches head.As Will Self said: 'Not all leavers are racist, but all racists are leavers'. Logically, he's correct. Is he? Clarkson has said some pretty offensive stuff about Asians and Mexicans. He is a remainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unexpected Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 1 hour ago, HairyOb1 said: Corrected for you. Corrected to include your M.O. perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, jonb2 said: Actually HY I really do think it's different this time. The big-tech platforms have more power than any other previous corporations (read monopoly) since they are so pervasive and control the attention (minds) of their users. The papers and TV are dying. We all know and complain about the head-in-screen pose of walkers, travelers and diners. This means that by far more people are being influenced by what they see here. They are truly addictive for many, and designed with this purpose. For example, Apple employs neuro-marketing, a new science of increasing the dopamine reward system - as does Facebook and Amazon with their one-click. Never before have we seen such a system. There's an excellent book by Tim Wu called The Attention Merchants which describes the huge money involved in managing engagement and ensuring you don't leave their walled gardens. Not wearing my tin foil hat I think Cambridge Analytica are just the tip of the iceberg. It's one of the main reasons I voted remain. This country with its current government will do nothing to stop the invasion without rules of these companies. The EU have fired their guns a few times. Thank you for the book recommendation - ordered a copy (through abebooks, not Amazon!). Good points. Like you, I work kind of in IT and don't have any social media accounts - so perhaps underestimate their control. The head-in-screen zombies are everywhere. We agree on the awfulness of our politicians & government. Your point about the EU being less bad (at least in this area) is well taken... but we disagree on the solution. You guess that the EU can - to some extent - save us from our gubbermint. I guess that making our gubbermint solely responsible will motivate us to save ourselves from them. I hope it's not hopeless. edit: just after posting a thought struck me; if our government is so terrible (and I don't disagree), then doesn't this kind of nullify the remainer point 'if we leave, then we'll have to re-enter with less influence'? if the EU is less bad than our government, then less influence for our government would be a good thing Edited September 19, 2017 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 1 minute ago, highYield said: Thank you for the book recommendation - ordered a copy (through abebooks, not Amazon!). Good points. Like you, I work kind of in IT and don't have any social media accounts - so perhaps underestimate their control. The head-in-screen zombies are everywhere. We agree on the awfulness of our politicians & government. Your point about the EU being less bad (at least in this area) is well taken... but we disagree on the solution. You guess that the EU can - to some extent - save us from our gubbermint. I guess that making our gubbermint solely responsible will motivate us to save ourselves from them. I hope it's not hopeless. Thanks for the response. As if by magic, I came across this from today's Grurdian: " The problem is that when we outsource thinking to machines, we are really outsourcing thinking to the organisations that run the machines." https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/19/facebooks-war-on-free-will There are many more articles like this appearing in the serious MSM. Finally some media people are asking questions, as it's sunk in their own existence is under a Defcon 1 threat. This goes back to voting and the question of influence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 jonb2 and HY I agree with the social media points. Just a comment: it's rather sad that people have to look to a foreign power (the EU) as some kind of saviour from our own government. I am hopeful that we can start demanding better when they cannot hide behind the EU. However I think the reality is that the EU is distant and the details of its working are not scrutinised by the press in the same detail. The reality is it is just as corrupt as the UK government. Just the other month they bailed out some Italian banks even though it was against their own rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 11 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Thanks for the response. As if by magic, I came across this from today's Grurdian: " The problem is that when we outsource thinking to machines, we are really outsourcing thinking to the organisations that run the machines." https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/19/facebooks-war-on-free-will There are many more articles like this appearing in the serious MSM. Finally some media people are asking questions, as it's sunk in their own existence is under a Defcon 1 threat. This goes back to voting and the question of influence. Really good article, thanks for posting. Scarily like Big Brother near the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, kzb said: Just a comment: it's rather sad that people have to look to a foreign power (the EU) as some kind of saviour from our own government. I am hopeful that we can start demanding better when they cannot hide behind the EU. This is very much my opinion too. Regarding the EU as a saviour from our own government seem to have some relation to Stockholm syndrome. Should we seek to pass an identical mess on to future generations, or .... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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