IMHAL Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 46 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: A major part of the problem is that the vast amount of people do not know how the EU works....the amount of misinformation out there is painful...How many people can explain what a customs union is in the first place?, or what the single market actually is and what it does? We have become totally ignorant. For over 40 years, we have allowed the EU to dictate the rules, and we cannot even counter them, as we cannot even grasp the basics... I thought we were supposed to be "taking back control"? All I see is that the EU are doing all the running, and telling us what's what...with Farage bereft of any ideas, and retreating from reality, seeing as he's hiding behind this second referendum idea. If it ever came to fruition, it could well destroy his life's work... All we hear is that he wants Britain to become a "prosperous, independent country"...Now then Nigel, what does that actually mean? Within the realms of reality...and what's possible...I'd like to know.. Interesting. How divorsed from reality do you think we are and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, IMHAL said: Interesting. How divorsed from reality do you think we are and why? People are obsessed that Brexit is an event. Its not. Its going to be a long process.....at a guess, at least 8-10 years. Perhaps longer.. We are destined to go down this vassal state that the EU are setting up for us, because we have categorically stated that we are leaving the single market now, but we want little to change after we leave. We will leave the single market at some point, but there is much to untangle. I think we could develop a genuine single market, not what we have now. I think leavers want to leave everything now, because they suspect we'll slip into hotel California...that we'll never leave. Ironically, that is what will happen if we slip into vassal state status..Under EEA we leave on the 29th March 2019, and its a shame that the "Norway option" has taken such a thrashing..but to be honest, its our only hope.. The NI border is almost sorted at a stroke for instance...I don't think the customs union is the be all and end all..There are ways around it. Edited January 12, 2018 by Dave Beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: People are obsessed that Brexit is an event. Its not. Its going to be a long process.....at a guess, at least 8-10 years. Perhaps longer.. We are destined to go down this vassal state that the EU are setting up for us, because we have categorically stated that we are leaving the single market now, but we want little to change after we leave. We will leave the single market at some point, but there is much to untangle. I think we could develop a genuine single market, not what we have now. I think leavers want to leave everything now, because they suspect we'll slip into hotel California...that we'll never leave. Ironically, that is what will happen if we slip into vassal state status..Under EEA we leave on the 29th March 2019, and to be honest, its our only hope.. The NI border is almost sorted at a stroke for instance... I understand your point about the vassal state.... because it is natural result of no change except the status. What do you mean by 'under eea we leave on thhe 29th march... its our only hope' I dont understand what you are saying here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, IMHAL said: I understand your point about the vassal state.... because it is natural result of no change except the status. What do you mean by 'under eea we leave on thhe 29th march... its our only hope' I dont understand what you are saying here? We are out of the EU on that date....We're not hanging around for the next ten years, technically being a member of the EU, but not..We'd have no voting rights, and we couldn't arrange our our own trade deals either....Much, much worse that what we have now... People aren't seeing the bigger picture.. In reply to Michael Heaver, Editor of Westmonster... Edited January 12, 2018 by Dave Beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: People are obsessed that Brexit is an event. Its not. Its going to be a long process.....at a guess, at least 8-10 years. Perhaps longer.. We are destined to go down this vassal state that the EU are setting up for us, because we have categorically stated that we are leaving the single market now, but we want little to change after we leave. We will leave the single market at some point, but there is much to untangle. I think we could develop a genuine single market, not what we have now. I think leavers want to leave everything now, because they suspect we'll slip into hotel California...that we'll never leave. Ironically, that is what will happen if we slip into vassal state status..Under EEA we leave on the 29th March 2019, and its a shame that the "Norway option" has taken such a thrashing..but to be honest, its our only hope.. The NI border is almost sorted at a stroke for instance...I don't think the customs union is the be all and end all..There are ways around it. It was already discussed on Wednesday in Brussel Quote Commission debates extending Brexit transition But awkward questions remain: What happens if a final deal on trade and the U.K.’s future relationship with the EU is not completed by the end of a transition period? Won’t the likely transition terms just create another cliff edge for businesses and regulators a bit further down the line? The European Commission has not ruled out extending a Brexit transition period beyond 2020. Politico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 7 minutes ago, rollover said: It was already discussed on Wednesday in Brussel Yep...this is what we are sleepwalking into... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: People are obsessed that Brexit is an event. Its not. Its going to be a long process.....at a guess, at least 8-10 years. Perhaps longer.. We are destined to go down this vassal state that the EU are setting up for us, because we have categorically stated that we are leaving the single market now, but we want little to change after we leave. We will leave the single market at some point, but there is much to untangle. I think we could develop a genuine single market, not what we have now. I think leavers want to leave everything now, because they suspect we'll slip into hotel California...that we'll never leave. Ironically, that is what will happen if we slip into vassal state status..Under EEA we leave on the 29th March 2019, and its a shame that the "Norway option" has taken such a thrashing..but to be honest, its our only hope.. The NI border is almost sorted at a stroke for instance...I don't think the customs union is the be all and end all..There are ways around it. Your new edited version makes sense. I have no issue with the norway option, other than it is a crap deal compared to what we have now. The only benefit is that it pacifies some mild brexiteers but leaves the hard brexiteers cold, mainly because of FoM. There is no easy squaring the cirle here. I rather get to the point where we know what the Brexit deal really means and then let the public decide if that is what they though brexit meant when they voted for it. If they then decide that they want a hard bexit, then let them get on with it and learn the hard lessons... to missquote some great despot .... people have a right go be stupid, but the british may be about to abuse that privelege. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: Yep...this is what we are sleepwalking into... It is all that we deserve....due to the fact that rainbows and unicorns are not on anyones menu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, IMHAL said: Your new edited version makes sense. I have no issue with the norway option, other than it is a crap deal compared to what we have now. The only benefit is that it pacifies some mild brexiteers but leaves the hard brexiteers cold, mainly because of FoM. There is no easy squaring the cirle here. I rather get to the point where we know what the Brexit deal really means and then let the public decide if that is what they though brexit meant when they voted for it. If they then decide that they want a hard bexit, then let them get on with it and learn the hard lessons... to missquote some great despot .... people have a right go be stupid, but the british may be about to abuse that privelege. I voted remain, but after contemplating the result over the last year, and then looking at the Flexcit stuff, I think we can do much better away from the EU, if we were smart about it. Perhaps I have had too much faith on our politicians. I think we have a lousy political system, because of the EU. It has taken much of the decision making on many areas, away from us. We are sucking at the teat of the EU, and I think we need to weaned off it. The EEA is a very malleable agreement, where much can be done in regards to FoM, or areas such as rules of origin, although I think it was the introduction of working tax credits that began the Brexit process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpeggio Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 On 1/11/2018 at 9:21 PM, macca13 said: What a load of bullox.. the economy is crap because of immigration not because we don’t have enough of it.. slave labour and stagnant wages only benefit the elites.. That’s why 15 BTL properties, financed by big business Tony Blair wants it stopped.. more slaves, more poverty, worse living standards.. he loves it.. pay a low life like Blair enough money, put your hand your his bum and move his lips! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: I voted remain, but after contemplating the result over the last year, and then looking at the Flexcit stuff, I think we can do much better away from the EU, if we were smart about it. Perhaps I have had too much faith on our politicians. I think we have a lousy political system, because of the EU. It has taken much of the decision making on many areas, away from us. We are sucking at the teat of the EU, and I think we need to weaned off it. The EEA is a very malleable agreement, where much can be done in regards to FoM, or areas such as rules of origin, although I think it was the introduction of working tax credits that began the Brexit process. Please explain what this deal look like? How is it different to the norway option? Edit: ive had a gut full of people blaming the eu for anything and everything, now you blame the eu for our crap political system....falling into the same trap.....why not blame our politicians? Edited January 12, 2018 by IMHAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 1 minute ago, IMHAL said: Please explain what this deal look like? How is it different to the norway option? Which deal? The EEA has country specific protocols within it, depending on each country's situation.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: Which deal? The EEA has country specific protocols within it, depending on each country's situation.. What does it mean for us in our situation? How is it a way forward? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Dave Beans said: A major part of the problem is that the vast amount of people do not know how the EU works....the amount of misinformation out there is painful...How many people can explain what a customs union is in the first place?, or what the single market actually is and what it does? We have become totally ignorant. For over 40 years, we have allowed the EU to dictate the rules, and we cannot even counter them, as we cannot even grasp the basics... I thought we were supposed to be "taking back control"? All I see is that the EU are doing all the running, and telling us what's what...with Farage bereft of any ideas, and retreating from reality, seeing as he's hiding behind this second referendum idea. If it ever came to fruition, it could well destroy his life's work... All we hear is that he wants Britain to become a "prosperous, independent country"...Now then Nigel, what does that actually mean? Within the realms of reality...and what's possible...I'd like to know.. Wasn’t ‘taking back control’ more of a populist/hard right spasm ? I don’t think it was about a practical coherent plan for Britain’s future. ‘What is the plan ?’ has been the repeated unanswered question presumably because there never really was one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, IMHAL said: What does it mean for us in our situation? How is it a way forward? We could have protocols added, that could help control immigration, or where agricultural goods could submitted from EEA states to the single market...Much could be done... It also means that on the 30th March 2019, we can start trade negotiations with all and sundry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Dave Beans said: Norway does not pay the EU for access to the single market. It voluntarily pays for the joint EU agencies, such as Eurasmus.. EEA countries are supported by the EFTA court, not by the ECJ... ttps://www.regjeringen.no/en/aktuelt/single-market/id2507626/ But we want a financial services deal, that as far as I know several EU spokesmen will only be available if we are prepared to pay for it. I thought EFTA followed ECoJ presidents in several areas, even if I am wrong I am not sure the average daily express reading Leave voter will differentiate between two foreign courts with European in their name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: We could have protocols added, that could help control immigration, or where agricultural goods could submitted from EEA states to the single market...Much could be done... It also means that on the 30th March 2019, we can start trade negotiations with all and sundry... You are being sketchy with the details. Will we retain a tariff free market in goods and services with the eu? I Why is this option , if it exists at all not been discuss asva mainstream option? Edited January 12, 2018 by IMHAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 14 minutes ago, pig said: Wasn’t ‘taking back control’ more of a populist/hard right spasm ? I don’t think it was about a practical coherent plan for Britain’s future. ‘What is the plan ?’ has been the repeated unanswered question presumably because there never really was one. Dominic Cummings, Director of Vote leave stated "we don't need a plan"..even though he knew of the existence of Flexcit... https://dominiccummings.com/2015/06/23/on-the-referendum-6-exit-plans-and-a-second-referendum/ He then has the audacity to roast David Davis about not having a plan... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, IMHAL said: You are being sketchy with the details. Will we retail a tariff free market in goods and services with the eu? Why is this option , if it exists at all not been discuss asva mainstream option? Article 10 of the EEA agreement http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.1994.001.01.0003.01.ENG Customs duties on imports and exports, and any charges having equivalent effect, shall be prohibited between the Contracting Parties. Without prejudice to the arrangements set out in Protocol 5, this shall also apply to customs duties of a fiscal nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 11 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: But we want a financial services deal, that as far as I know several EU spokesmen will only be available if we are prepared to pay for it. I thought EFTA followed ECoJ presidents in several areas, even if I am wrong I am not sure the average daily express reading Leave voter will differentiate between two foreign courts with European in their name. Passporting is part of the EEA agreement (AFAIK)... The EFTA court can look at ECJ rulings, but they don't have to follow them https://www.ft.com/content/268fa1a2-ca2f-11e7-ab18-7a9fb7d6163e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUBanana Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) Proof that T.May is selling us out is the fact that EFTA is flat out better than the dire deal that she's negotiating. EFTA would mean, no divorce bill, our fish is our fish, the ECJ has no jurisdiction, we are in the single market and would have to obey their rules - but not as interpreted by the ECJ, we are free to make trade deals with other nations, FOM under EFTA is free movement of labour not people (try and move to Norway without a job)... You know, all the stuff that Barnier is saying is completely impossible. No uncertainty either because it's off the shelf, EFTA made clear it's an option, pretty much just have to press the button. It may not be a desirable end state. Maybe it will be. But it'll certainly do as a transition, yet David Davis and co have categorically ruled it out as a bad deal. i'm dubious, given what I hear their alternative is going to be. They want us in. Edited January 13, 2018 by EUBanana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, EUBanana said: Proof that T.May is selling us out is the fact that EFTA is flat out better than the dire deal that she's negotiating. EFTA would mean, no divorce bill, our fish is our fish, the ECJ has no jurisdiction, we are in the single market and would have to obey their rules - but not as interpreted by the ECJ, we are free to make trade deals with other nations, FOM under EFTA is free movement of labour not people (try and move to Norway without a job)... You know, all the stuff that Barnier is saying is completely impossible. No uncertainty either because it's off the shelf, EFTA made clear it's an option, pretty much just have to press the button. It may not be a desirable end state. Maybe it will be. But it'll certainly do as a transition, yet David Davis and co have categorically ruled it out as a bad deal. i'm dubious, given what I hear their alternative is going to be. They want us in. Pretty much spot on, bar the bold. The single market acquis has a two-pillar approach, thus EFTA/EEA states have a full say in shaping legislation. http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreement/eea-basic-features#6 I'm also thinking that they want to keep us in....on the worst deal possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 44 minutes ago, EUBanana said: Proof that T.May is selling us out is the fact that EFTA is flat out better than the dire deal that she's negotiating. EFTA would mean, no divorce bill, our fish is our fish, the ECJ has no jurisdiction, we are in the single market and would have to obey their rules - but not as interpreted by the ECJ, we are free to make trade deals with other nations, FOM under EFTA is free movement of labour not people (try and move to Norway without a job)... You know, all the stuff that Barnier is saying is completely impossible. No uncertainty either because it's off the shelf, EFTA made clear it's an option, pretty much just have to press the button. It may not be a desirable end state. Maybe it will be. But it'll certainly do as a transition, yet David Davis and co have categorically ruled it out as a bad deal. i'm dubious, given what I hear their alternative is going to be. They want us in. It does seem to be the obvious, keep your options open, deal. The only reason I can see for it not being pursued is that the hard line Tory Brexiteers would rebel, as they would suspect it would become the end, rather than transition, state. NB I don't think it would avoid paying a divorce settlement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Dave Beans said: We could have protocols added, that could help control immigration, or where agricultural goods could submitted from EEA states to the single market...Much could be done... It also means that on the 30th March 2019, we can start trade negotiations with all and sundry... You've been indoctrinated by loony propaganda from the Norths who have no credibility. Flexcit is as much of a pipe dream as every other Brexit plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Dave Beans said: Pretty much spot on, bar the bold. The single market acquis has a two-pillar approach, thus EFTA/EEA states have a full say in shaping legislation. http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreement/eea-basic-features#6 I'm also thinking that they want to keep us in....on the worst deal possible. Or, EU is just responding to the current option that UK voted for and at this moment still negotiating. Even now isn't clear what Br-exit means and what UK want to achieve as a whole. As days go by, it is still not clear if UK want to stay in - soft Brexit - or out - hard Brexit. Edited January 13, 2018 by rollover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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