Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[spyguy]

38 minutes ago, cashinmattress said:

What? A bit insulting, isn't it?

You do realise that the UK has the right to remove economically inactive Europeans from the country... HM gov chose to do nothing. Policing it would cost money we don't have.

Brexit won't change any of that... immigrants from the EU and elsewhere will keep coming and very little enforcement action will take place.

If you want to deter immigrants you need to make it economically unattractive here in the UK... not add more layers of police and goverment minders. This is a self defeating idea as it will impact Brits as well, and at scales of magnitude.

 

Err, its true.

The waves Ive seen have become older, less skilled, more benefit claiming than the next.

I agree on the benefits. Non UK citizens should not receive any. If a non brit has to recourse to benefits then they are first plane out - on their cash.

Id be more than happy with a contribution based, time limited welfare for UK citizens too.

 

[kibuc]

1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

 I know! Easier to integrate when you can talk about killing nazis together.

There's nothing stopping anyone from keeping that conversation going. Make it a new favorite small-talk subject instead of the weather and cricket (criquet?) and BAM! All Poles integrated.

Edited July 19, 2017 by kibuc

[GrizzlyDave]

2 minutes ago, kibuc said:

There's nothing stopping anyone from keeping that conversation going. Make it a new favorite small-talk subject instead of the weather and cricket (criquet?) and BAM! All Poles integrated.

What language will the conversation be in?

Is it still acceptable to bash Nazis or do we insult their human rights by doing so? I struggle to keep up with the latest irrational bulltulip.

[rollover]

 

Quote

 

May is handling Brexit in the 'absolute worst way' possible

A former UK diplomat to the European Union has told Business Insider that Theresa May's government is handling Brexit talks in the "absolute worst way" possible. Speaking to BI this week, Steven Bullock, a former UK representative to the EU, offered a scathing assessment of how ministers have behaved both before and after Brexit talks began, claiming that EU figures in Brussels are "baffled" by how unprepared the British side has been for negotiations.

"The people I talk to are just really sad about it. It's like a friend who goes off the rails and you offer to help them and they turn you down." For Bullock, though, it's not just a lack of strategy that is letting the government down.

"There is a very effective machine behind negotiations with the EU for the UK in general. We have the UK permanent representation containing a lot people who are outstanding and experts in the EU. We have lots of experts in Whitehall. Hundreds of them. There are lots of senior civil servants who have worked extensively with the EU.

"And yet we seem to have completely ignored all advice and any concept of there being a strategy. businessinsider

 

Why to bother?

[knock out johnny]

 

Quote

 

May is handling Brexit in the 'absolute worst way' possible

A former UK diplomat to the European Union has told Business Insider that Theresa May's government is handling Brexit talks in the "absolute worst way" possible. Speaking to BI this week, Steven Bullock, a former UK representative to the EU, offered a scathing assessment of how ministers have behaved both before and after Brexit talks began, claiming that EU figures in Brussels are "baffled" by how unprepared the British side has been for negotiations.

"The people I talk to are just really sad about it. It's like a friend who goes off the rails and you offer to help them and they turn you down." For Bullock, though, it's not just a lack of strategy that is letting the government down.

"There is a very effective machine behind negotiations with the EU for the UK in general. We have the UK permanent representation containing a lot people who are outstanding and experts in the EU. We have lots of experts in Whitehall. Hundreds of them. There are lots of senior civil servants who have worked extensively with the EU.

"And yet we seem to have completely ignored all advice and any concept of there being a strategy. businessinsider

 

if true this goes one of two ways

i) we crash out and become a neoliberal wet dream

ii) a deal so appalling is presented that it doesn't get through the HOC

I have absolutely no idea what the fck they are playing at

[GrizzlyDave]

9 minutes ago, knock out johnny said:

 

if true this goes one of two ways

i) we crash out and become a neoliberal wet dream

ii) a deal so appalling is presented that it doesn't get through the HOC

I have absolutely no idea what the fck they are playing at

The EU is a neoliberal wet dream.

looks to me like:

1) shit deal

2) HoC decides to chuck it to the country as a take it or stay ref.

3) folk lose their bottle and we vote to stay.

 

resistance is fEUtile.

[kzb]

12 minutes ago, knock out johnny said:

I have absolutely no idea what the fck they are playing at

The BBC et al presented the fact that the UK team showed up at the talks without any documents (apparently).  Whereas Barnier showed up with an impressive stack of important-looking papers.

The angle being, to denigrate our own side of course.

The truth is, ministers should NOT be walking round with papers on show in front of cameras, as many have learned to their cost.  So it's Davis who is in the right, but you would never thing that from watching the BBC.

[Confusion of VIs]

22 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

The EU is a neoliberal wet dream.

looks to me like:

1) shit deal

2) HoC decides to chuck it to the country as a take it or stay ref.

3) folk lose their bottle and we vote to stay.

 

resistance is fEUtile.

So we have arrived at the same conclusion by different routes.

I disagree that a vote to stay would be because people lost their bottle. If it happens it will because the Brexiteers have failed to provide a credible vision of how the UK will prosper post Brexit, in the face of a better understanding of what leaving actually entails.

Any intelligent serious Brexiteers (I know this is a very small club) should be anticipating a second referendum and setting out this vision now, without fanciful claims about 50 years worth of trade negotiations both happening overnight and proving to be to our advantage.

 

 

 

[GrizzlyDave]

9 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

So we have arrived at the same conclusion by different routes.

I disagree that a vote to stay would be because people lost their bottle. If it happens it will because the Brexiteers have failed to provide a credible vision of how the UK will prosper post Brexit, in the face of a better understanding of what leaving actually entails.

Any intelligent serious Brexiteers (I know this is a very small club) should be anticipating a second referendum and setting out this vision now, without fanciful claims about 50 years worth of trade negotiations both happening overnight and proving to be to our advantage.

 

 

 

It's hard to call, but right here right now this looks to me how it will go. I thought we were headed for EEA, but now, not so sure.

The thing about brexit, is that it isn't about the money. Remainers are so focused on red busses, and costs of Norway membership, and cost for trade deals etc.

Honestly, I really couldn't give a toss about the financial side. (Probably will be meh either way) 

Even if GDP was hit 20% I'd vote brexit tomorrow. Shake it up.

Edited July 19, 2017 by GrizzlyDave

[Confusion of VIs]

3 hours ago, spyguy said:

Err, its true.

The waves Ive seen have become older, less skilled, more benefit claiming than the next.

I agree on the benefits. Non UK citizens should not receive any. If a non brit has to recourse to benefits then they are first plane out - on their cash.

Id be more than happy with a contribution based, time limited welfare for UK citizens too.

I agree enforce the FoM rules and introduce a benefits system with a 5 year contributions requirement(with if we choose the government paying the initial contributions on behalf of UK citizens.

 It's notional not real money so no impact on UK finances, and to fit with EU law other states free to entitle their citizens by paying 5 years worth of contributions with about £100k of real money).

Do that and we will have achieved as much as we will by leaving the EU without all the collateral damage to the economy. 

To those like Grizzily who think we can do more outside the EU, we could but we won't. Just look at the NHS's reaction to EU applicants drying up, they have tripled the recruitment budgets, with more to come, and are now concentrating on non EU immigrants. 

[rollover]

Quote

 

The European Commission has installed Mission Impossible style fingerprint scanners to boost security protecting its Brexit team, amid fears that Britain’s high-powered spy agencies might be eavesdropping on preparations for tense EU-UK negotiations.

The Article 50 offices require both a badge and fingerprint identification, which makes them unique in the Commission, which is guarded by private security firm G4S . Telegraph

 

 Mission Impossible style fingerprint scanners to boost security and is guarded by private security firm G4S.

[Confusion of VIs]

Just now, Confusion of VIs said:

I agree enforce the FoM rules and introduce a benefits system with a 5 year contributions requirement(with if we choose the government paying the initial contributions on behalf of UK citizens.

 It's notional not real money so no impact on UK finances, and to fit with EU law other states free to entitle their citizens by paying 5 years worth of contributions with about £100k of real money).

Do that and we will have achieved as much as we will by leaving the EU without all the collateral damage to the economy. 

To those like Grizzily who think we can do more outside the EU, we could but we won't. Just look at the NHS's reaction to EU applicants drying up, they have tripled the recruitment budgets, with more to come, and are now concentrating on non EU immigrants. 

I should have added the conservatives are promising every area of business a light touch post Brexit work permit  system, current favourite is allowing EU citizens to come to the UK to look for work for 3-6 months with a near automatic work permit if they manage to find employment and stay our of jail. How this is materially different from firmly enforcing the existing FoM rules escapes me.

[GrizzlyDave]

4 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I agree enforce the FoM rules and introduce a benefits system with a 5 year contributions requirement(with if we choose the government paying the initial contributions on behalf of UK citizens.

 It's notional not real money so no impact on UK finances, and to fit with EU law other states free to entitle their citizens by paying 5 years worth of contributions with about £100k of real money).

Do that and we will have achieved as much as we will by leaving the EU without all the collateral damage to the economy. 

To those like Grizzily who think we can do more outside the EU, we could but we won't. Just look at the NHS's reaction to EU applicants drying up, they have tripled the recruitment budgets, with more to come, and are now concentrating on non EU immigrants. 

How about we train our own doctors and nurses.

[GrizzlyDave]

12 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I should have added the conservatives are promising every area of business a light touch post Brexit work permit  system, current favourite is allowing EU citizens to come to the UK to look for work for 3-6 months with a near automatic work permit if they manage to find employment and stay our of jail. How this is materially different from firmly enforcing the existing FoM rules escapes me.

Most MPs are Remainers.

Edited July 19, 2017 by GrizzlyDave

[Confusion of VIs]

Just now, GrizzlyDave said:

How about we train our own doctors and nurses.

We could and should but them again we always could have.

An immediate and practical start would be making doctors pay a large part of their their £250k training cost, but writing it off if they spend 5 years working for the NHS.

[GrizzlyDave]

1 minute ago, Confusion of VIs said:

We could and should but them again we always could have.

An immediate and practical start would be making doctors pay a large part of their their £250k training cost, but writing it off if they spend 5 years working for the NHS.

Frustrating isn't it. My hope for brexit is that the cardiac arrest leads to the sort of reform that is needed.

Yep, totally agree with free training with retention clause.

[Confusion of VIs]

6 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Most MPs are Remainers.

Yes, but only in the same proportion as you would expect degree educated people earning 80k to be. 

[GrizzlyDave]

1 minute ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Yes, but only in the same proportion as you would expect degree educated people earning 80k to be. 

Snouts in the trough.

[Confusion of VIs]

14 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Snouts in the trough.

Not much of a trough.

[GrizzlyDave]

2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Not much of a trough.

80k a year and armfuls of expenses. Sounds pretty tidy to most people.

How much do you make?

[spyguy]

41 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I agree enforce the FoM rules and introduce a benefits system with a 5 year contributions requirement(with if we choose the government paying the initial contributions on behalf of UK citizens.

 It's notional not real money so no impact on UK finances, and to fit with EU law other states free to entitle their citizens by paying 5 years worth of contributions with about £100k of real money).

Do that and we will have achieved as much as we will by leaving the EU without all the collateral damage to the economy. 

To those like Grizzily who think we can do more outside the EU, we could but we won't. Just look at the NHS's reaction to EU applicants drying up, they have tripled the recruitment budgets, with more to come, and are now concentrating on non EU immigrants. 

One benefit hat should not be paid, ever, to a non UK nations is housing benefit.

The person has made themselves deliberately homeless by moving to the UK.

[pig]

31 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Frustrating isn't it. My hope for brexit is that the cardiac arrest leads to the sort of reform that is needed.

Yep, totally agree with free training with retention clause.

Impressive how fecking the country up can be rationalised. 

Mind you, maybe Hunt could learn from it by ordering cardiac arrest prescriptions  on the NHS for a whole load of irritating diagnoses.

[GrizzlyDave]

7 minutes ago, pig said:

Impressive how fecking the country up can be rationalised. 

Mind you, maybe Hunt could learn from it by ordering cardiac arrest prescriptions  on the NHS for a whole load of irritating diagnoses.

I like to think of it as forging a new machine out of the broken scrap and waste.

[kzb]

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 10:17 PM, Confusion of VIs said:

That's because everyone knows its true. It was  agreed by the major players just after the referendum that once reality, that Brexit means Leaving and that there will be no "cherry picking" of  the benefits of being in the EU, sinks in we will be offered a deal restricting FoM for a long period probably 10-15 years.

I posted the "rumors" at the time, it was confirmed by speeches made by Merkel and Hollande in the following weeks that used the exact wording contained in the rumors, so assuming it still holds we have another year or so to stew before the offer is made.        

So what is really going on here?

If Blair is really touting this EU plan now, it is hardly a secret and our negotiating team must have been aware of it.

Or perhaps this is really what is behind the apparent inaction on the UK side.  Possibly just sitting and waiting for this offer to be made?

Or maybe the whole rumour is designed as a ruse, to split opinion on UK side?  If so, Blair must be in on it.

 

[pig]

44 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

I like to think of it as forging a new machine out of the broken scrap and waste.

Lol - well I guess you could say the Mad Max series wasn't 'driven' by fear of apocalypse but rather a safe way to enjoy the thrills of an immature 'freedom'.