19 year mortgage 8itch Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: 1) Some people don't like the idea and will never like it, but you can get to 50% without them in the right circumstances. 2) I'm not saying Brexit will be the cause as such, but that it changes the perspective. We will have something to blame. 3) The difference is the different context. We will be outside. If there are times when we are doing badly and they are doing well, it will be natural to ask what could have been if only... 4) This is the one statement that is not wishful thinking at all. Nothing stays the same forever. I've had to edit my post, 1) should read "it is clear" as in throwing Greece under the bus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19 year mortgage 8itch Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: 1) Some people don't like the idea and will never like it, but you can get to 50% without them in the right circumstances. 2) I'm not saying Brexit will be the cause as such, but that it changes the perspective. We will have something to blame. 3) The difference is the different context. We will be outside. If there are times when we are doing badly and they are doing well, it will be natural to ask what could have been if only... 4) This is the one statement that is not wishful thinking at all. Nothing stays the same forever. You talk about changing perspectives and wondering "if only". Theres nothing there other than wishful thinking that people change their minds. you are the one wishing bad things will happen so you can say "I told you so"... Edited April 21, 2017 by 24 year mortgage 8itch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 11 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: But unfortunately (for anyone who believes that democracy requires a functioning opposition) they are completely useless and it looks like the Tories will have a free run for many years to come. In what sense is the Labour Party no longer a functioning opposition? On practically every issue I can think of - housing, employment, taxation, spending - they are the only sane voice in parliament. Again and again we keep hearing that Corbyn is completely useless and/or unelectable. Generally, as here, this judgement is advanced without explanation. Or perhaps some reference is made to Corbyn being photographed shaking hands with Gerry Adams thirty years ago. It's poppycock. He's even managed to navigate the Brexit waters with a degree of deftness. Sufficiently populist to disarm Tory accusations of betrayal, yet not so much as to alienate the many pro-Europeans in his own party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 14 minutes ago, 24 year mortgage 8itch said: You talk about changing perspectives and wondering "if only". Theres nothing there other than wishful thinking that people change their minds. you are the one wishing bad things will happen so you can say "I told you so"... Britain not being part of the mainstream politics of Europe is bad enough for me. I don't need to wish for anything worse than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 24 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: 1) Some people don't like the idea and will never like it, but you can get to 50% without them in the right circumstances. 2) I'm not saying Brexit will be the cause as such, but that it changes the perspective. We will have something to blame. 3) The difference is the different context. We will be outside. If there are times when we are doing badly and they are doing well, it will be natural to ask what could have been if only... 4) This is the one statement that is not wishful thinking at all. Nothing stays the same forever. 3) And when we are doing well and the EU is doing badly? We will be saying thank goodness we're well out of it. 4) Nothing stays the same forever apart from your beloved EU apparently. Lots of rainbows and unicorns in your EU aren't there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 1 minute ago, zugzwang said: In what sense is the Labour Party no longer a functioning opposition? On practically every issue I can think of - housing, employment, taxation, spending - they are the only sane voice in parliament. Again and again we keep hearing that Corbyn is completely useless and/or unelectable. Generally, as here, this judgement is advanced without explanation. Or perhaps some reference is made to Corbyn being photographed shaking hands with Gerry Adams thirty years ago. It's poppycock. He's even managed to navigate the Brexit waters with a degree of deftness. Sufficiently populist to disarm Tory accusations of betrayal, yet not so much as to alienate the many pro-Europeans in his own party. Political power. You can blame the newspapers, disobedient party members, deluded electorate, Putin if you want. What the Tories understand is that this is a 'power' game, and they have control over (most!) of the above. If you're having to point out to everybody that hey actually he's OK, this means somewhere along the line he's failed. Or you have to claim that somehow the entire 'system' does not work. And I should stress I am not voting Tory - aside from anything else I am pretty enraged and outraged at Tory housing policy over the last 7 years, blow by fecking blow, year after year and wouldn't touch them now with the proverbial shitty stick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 1 hour ago, zugzwang said: In what sense is the Labour Party no longer a functioning opposition? On practically every issue I can think of - housing, employment, taxation, spending - they are the only sane voice in parliament. Again and again we keep hearing that Corbyn is completely useless and/or unelectable. Generally, as here, this judgement is advanced without explanation. Or perhaps some reference is made to Corbyn being photographed shaking hands with Gerry Adams thirty years ago. It's poppycock. He's even managed to navigate the Brexit waters with a degree of deftness. Sufficiently populist to disarm Tory accusations of betrayal, yet not so much as to alienate the many pro-Europeans in his own party. Corbyn has been crucified by the media. A bit like Trump, he doesn't stand a chance against them. What is putting me off about voting Labour is the memory of their last administration, rather than Corbyn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, kzb said: Corbyn has been crucified by the media. A bit like Trump, he doesn't stand a chance against them. That would be the Trump who beat every establishment politician in the USA and became President? Corbyn is nothing like him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, hotairmail said: Someone complained about there being Corbyn, May and Farron fighting this election as though we're plumbing the depths. To my mind, they are a very refreshing change from the slick snake oil salesmen we've had for 20 years - Blair, Cameron, Clegg. It's a reaction against TV friendly, self enriching types. Agreed. Although it's ironic in some ways that the Kippers who used to complain about there being no distinction between LibLabCon seem to have become Blukip with nothing separating them from the Tories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 1 hour ago, zugzwang said: In what sense is the Labour Party no longer a functioning opposition? On practically every issue I can think of - housing, employment, taxation, spending - they are the only sane voice in parliament. Again and again we keep hearing that Corbyn is completely useless and/or unelectable. Generally, as here, this judgement is advanced without explanation. Or perhaps some reference is made to Corbyn being photographed shaking hands with Gerry Adams thirty years ago. It's poppycock. He's even managed to navigate the Brexit waters with a degree of deftness. Sufficiently populist to disarm Tory accusations of betrayal, yet not so much as to alienate the many pro-Europeans in his own party. He is not a credible leader. So irrespective of having several very popular policies, he is going to lose the election badly to a Tory leader who herself would have been exposed as second/third rate by a half decent opposition leader. For me that's reason enough to describe the current Labor party as a non functioning opposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Agreed. Although it's ironic in some ways that the Kippers who used to complain about there being no distinction between LibLabCon seem to have become Blukip with nothing separating them from the Tories. Fair point that. It's also a fair point that there is more of a difference between the three established parties than than there's been for many years. I still don't know which way to vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19 year mortgage 8itch Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: He is not a credible leader. So irrespective of having several very popular policies, he is going to lose the election badly to a Tory leader who herself would have been exposed as second/third rate by a half decent opposition leader. For me that's reason enough to describe the current Labor party as a non functioning opposition. Dammit, he's done it to me again. I now have the irresistible urge to vote for Corbyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 9 minutes ago, kzb said: Fair point that. It's also a fair point that there is more of a difference between the three established parties than than there's been for many years. I still don't know which way to vote. Join the club. Despite slagging him off above it might end up I have no choice but to vote for 'him'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 33 minutes ago, kzb said: Fair point that. It's also a fair point that there is more of a difference between the three established parties than than there's been for many years. I still don't know which way to vote. My "can't stand any of them" stance hasn't changed at all but it's a good point that there are at least differences, and I hadn't really thought about it until now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, pig said: Political power. You can blame the newspapers, disobedient party members, deluded electorate, Putin if you want. What the Tories understand is that this is a 'power' game, and they have control over (most!) of the above. If you're having to point out to everybody that hey actually he's OK, this means somewhere along the line he's failed. Or you have to claim that somehow the entire 'system' does not work. And I should stress I am not voting Tory - aside from anything else I am pretty enraged and outraged at Tory housing policy over the last 7 years, blow by fecking blow, year after year and wouldn't touch them now with the proverbial shitty stick. Must admit i flee the same but where now ...nice but dim tim is at the bottom of the list ..for me Corbyn is making the right noises but they all do when in opposition, ( he`s frameing Brexit as an anti establishment vote which IMO he`s not far off the truth on that one) but turn 180 degrees if they get into power see the Tories for that when it comes to housing, and at the end of the day team red are more to blame when it comes to the whole housing debarkel than just about any party Edited April 21, 2017 by long time lurking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, kzb said: Corbyn has been crucified by the media. A bit like Trump, he doesn't stand a chance against them. What is putting me off about voting Labour is the memory of their last administration, rather than Corbyn. Exact same feeling here ,the same could be said about the conservatives The thing that worries me most about Corbyn is the fact that he`s a tree huger at least May can see the light on that front Edited April 21, 2017 by long time lurking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 31 minutes ago, long time lurking said: Exact same feeling here ,the same could be said about the conservatives The thing that worries most about Corbyn is the fact that he`s a tree huger at least May can see the light on that front To be honest I'd not really noticed that. I don't think he is as keen on stuff like that as the LibDems and Greens. Real Marxists regarded environmentalism as a bourgeois affection. Although he has undoubtedly modified his views since, and rightly so, being brought up a Marxist he would be aware of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 5 hours ago, zugzwang said: In what sense is the Labour Party no longer a functioning opposition? On practically every issue I can think of - housing, employment, taxation, spending - they are the only sane voice in parliament. Again and again we keep hearing that Corbyn is completely useless and/or unelectable. Generally, as here, this judgement is advanced without explanation. Or perhaps some reference is made to Corbyn being photographed shaking hands with Gerry Adams thirty years ago. It's poppycock. He's even managed to navigate the Brexit waters with a degree of deftness. Sufficiently populist to disarm Tory accusations of betrayal, yet not so much as to alienate the many pro-Europeans in his own party. I heard a speech of his about the time of the last election, & I found myself agreeing with everything he said. Then I realised he was describing the problems. His solutions however ... And he's a bitter, vindictive, hypocritical little man who loves to hate 'the rich'. People who send their kids to grammar schools, private schools & the like :-) Please Alan Johnson, come back, don't give up on us, pretty, pretty, pretty please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 Oh dear: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4433186/Elections-watchdog-launches-investiation-eave-EU.html?login#readerCommentsCommand-message-field This must mean a legal challenge of the referendum result. They cancel election results when this happens as we know. What should we do? Just bin Brexit altogether or have a 2nd referendum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Oh dear: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4433186/Elections-watchdog-launches-investiation-eave-EU.html?login#readerCommentsCommand-message-field This must mean a legal challenge of the referendum result. They cancel election results when this happens as we know. What should we do? Just bin Brexit altogether or have a 2nd referendum? Clutching at straws there mate, Brexit is happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19 year mortgage 8itch Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Clutching at straws there mate, Brexit is happening. For a small monthly donation of just (article) 50p, we aim to provide bunches of straws in EU blue and gold colours for anxiety stricken Bremainers to clutch to their hearts content giving them the emotional strength to continue their day to day lives and dealing with the great unwashed, half of whom will be dirty Brexiters. Your donation will help change their lives for the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Oh dear: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4433186/Elections-watchdog-launches-investiation-eave-EU.html?login#readerCommentsCommand-message-field This must mean a legal challenge of the referendum result. They cancel election results when this happens as we know. What should we do? Just bin Brexit altogether or have a 2nd referendum? Quote Mr Banks tonight claimed the Electoral Commission's probe was 'politically motivated' and was linked to his interest in running to be MP for Clacton. Like the Electoral Commission really cares about who is the MP for Clacton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Oh dear: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4433186/Elections-watchdog-launches-investiation-eave-EU.html?login#readerCommentsCommand-message-field This must mean a legal challenge of the referendum result. They cancel election results when this happens as we know. What should we do? Just bin Brexit altogether or have a 2nd referendum? They were not the official leave group ? how dose that work when he was using his own money Edited April 21, 2017 by long time lurking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futuroid Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 I see poor old John Redwood has got himself in a bit of a tizzy suggesting people should buy British when there aren't really any British auto makers left. Lucky for him this was unveiled today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Futuroid said: I see poor old John Redwood has got himself in a bit of a tizzy suggesting people should buy British when there aren't really any British auto makers left. Lucky for him this was unveiled today. Is having our own car industry the marker of success? Where does Airbus go to get it's jet engines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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