The Official Brexit - Remain Thread - All New Threads Will Be Merged Into This One

[spyguy]

Again, along with the near miss (or hit, depending on your stance), another one of Gordie's genius ideas is blowing up the UK again.

Paying out tax credits to EU nationals has drawn in 10% of East Europe workforce, paying them a huge salary to hand wash cars, etc etc. Forcing up costs for the low paid natives, putting them out of jobs etc etc.

All down to that cretin Brown. Seriously, he's been out of power ~6 years and his 'great idea's' are still flying back to coup and dumping on the UK.

There's a BBC article on Camerons attempt to winkle out of the benefit payments:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35118036

Its always interesting to read the highest rated comments on HYS articles -they tend to be a good indication of what the nation is thinking.

A few years ago, 'UK out of EU' was a fringe opinion held by Colonels from Tunbridge Wells.

Now it appears to be the UK mainstream opinion, both left + right.

My opinion is they should scrap TCs ASAP. Introduce a contribution based welfare system like the rest of the EU.

[bristolhunter]

The separatists have a long & ignoble history - take a look at the long term trackers, like at https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/2435/European-Union-membership-trends.aspx. Current levels of 'rip us out' are about normal, earlier this year they hit nearly an all-time low. The traitors will always be there, but they're always much much louder than their numbers reflect.

[nnails]

complete agree

when i lost my job 10years ago i was only getting the standard 65week dole money yet the serial scroungers got , housing benefit ,council tax paid, dole money and any other extra thats was on offer.

personall if i had been george i would have banned tax credits for anyone who had not paid in for 5 years and said in the loudest possible voice that EU made me do it blame them.

It would have done wonders for EU negotations

[crashmonitor]

complete agree

when i lost my job 10years ago i was only getting the standard 65week dole money yet the serial scroungers got , housing benefit ,council tax paid, dole money and any other extra thats was on offer.

personall if i had been george i would have banned tax credits for anyone who had not paid in for 5 years and said in the loudest possible voice that EU made me do it blame them.

It would have done wonders for EU negotations

It's not rocket science, ban benefits for everybody until they have 5 years contributions. Then indeed we won't be being ripped off anymore by car washers, market traders, big issue sale people etc. from eastern Europe.

Got 35 years contributions myself and wouldn't get a penny if I was unemployed or on a low income personally (wife works).

In any case I think it's got beyond the benefits system now, Merkel flooding Europe with millions of young asylum seeking men is a game changer and the majority of Brits may well want out whatever the repercussions to GDP.

Edited December 17, 2015 by crashmonitor

[billybong]

The other thing to watch out for with Cameron's negotiations is what doesn't get mentioned when it comes to the eu referendum vote - what are the agreements done under the table (the hidden stuff) that aren't revealed and that in time make any publicised concessions meaningless.

Edited December 17, 2015 by billybong

[Executive Sadman]

I don't think the British public are in favour of exiting as such (nor staying in!). The British public will assume the same position they always assume, which is no change. By the same token, nor do I think they vote to would enter the EU if we were not in it! Above all, the electorate in the UK want to be 'moderate', to support the status quo. Its why, despite being utterly devoid of anything that will improve the country long term, Cameron and Blair are both election winners.

IMO its no mistake the ref on the common market was done after the event. Had it been held in 1973 instead of '75, we'd have voted to stay out.

I do think the EU will collapse eventually, but it will be because the east has extracted all the wealth it can do, and doesnt want the social nonsense of being some half feminist/half islamist multiculti state where everyone is suspicious of everyone.

[Solitaire]

I know it's only a DM poll but of 14,000 votes, 90% have voted for leaving the EU.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3362082/John-Major-warns-against-Britain-leaving-European-Union-entering-splendid-isolation.html

[mattyboy1973]

A year ago I would have said it was unthinkable, now I think it is a possibility - maybe even a probability. I'm a "lefty" (by the standards of this forum, anyway ) and I'll be voting "out", FWIW.

[spyguy]

A year ago I would have said it was unthinkable, now I think it is a possibility - maybe even a probability. I'm a "lefty" (by the standards of this forum, anyway ) and I'll be voting "out", FWIW.

That's my point. Until very recently, Brexit was an idea only held on the extreme right and extreme left.

Now, with the TCs, refugees, Paris shootings etc, it becoming an idea held by non-extreme right and left public.

And this change has only occurred in the last couple of years.

[TheCountOfNowhere]

was it?

[Bill D'arblay]

Again, along with the near miss (or hit, depending on your stance), another one of Gordie's genius ideas is blowing up the UK again.

All down to that cretin Brown. Seriously, he's been out of power ~6 years and his 'great idea's' are still flying back to coup and dumping on the UK.

As you say, he has been out of power for 6 years and the policy you allude to was last ramped up even longer ago than that.

Yet we still have record ​EU migration, massive non-EU migration after 6 years of Tory government​​ - no attempt whatsoever to change or modify the policy. unless you wrongly count the recent games with the Autumn statement.

[Bill D'arblay]

That's my point. Until very recently, Brexit was an idea only held on the extreme right and extreme left.

Now, with the TCs, refugees, Paris shootings etc, it becoming an idea held by non-extreme right and left public.

And this change has only occurred in the last couple of years.

Agree with your first and last lines.

However I think the change has occurred amongst the masses when they were subjected to the unedifying spectacle of the fat-cats, banksters, corporate troughers and so on bleating about the 'dangers' of leaving.

[billybong]

So far as the people's opinion is concerned rather than the political parties I think the yes/No vote has been pretty finely balanced over the years even amongst moderates although never given an opportunity to make that Yes/No voting decision. Varying over the years but regularly polled on various polls as just under 50% and now and then a bit more.

So close that the LibLabCon have continually reneged on promises of a referendum. Likely they also had other self interested reasons for reneging and not making a decision as well.

It's only in the last few years that the eu veil has truly started to drop (or at least has taken on a new complexion) and the blatant self interests, the risks in staying and the lack of democracy etc etc have become obvious so more and more people are moving towards Brexit. It's not what was in the brochure so to speak.

The success of UKIP in giving a voice to the eu negatives (rather than the negatives being continually disguised and hidden) has also contributed.

Edited December 17, 2015 by billybong

[EssKay]

personall if i had been george i would have banned tax credits for anyone who had not paid in for 5 years and said in the loudest possible voice that EU made me do it blame them.

It would have done wonders for EU negotations

I think you're bang on there - it's such an obvious thing to do it makes you wonder what the agenda really is. Why exactly is he so unwilling to introduce a contributions test for native TC claimants too?

[shindigger]

That's my point. Until very recently, Brexit was an idea only held on the extreme right and extreme left.

Now, with the TCs, refugees, Paris shootings etc, it becoming an idea held by non-extreme right and left public.

And this change has only occurred in the last couple of years.

They even tried to steam roller through votes for 16 year olds to vote in the referendum.

Dont remember the same amount of lobbying or racket for 16 year olds voting in domestic elections.

Every day they show a bit more leg.

[durhamborn]

I think you're bang on there - it's such an obvious thing to do it makes you wonder what the agenda really is. Why exactly is he so unwilling to introduce a contributions test for native TC claimants too?

Because they destroyed the industrial base and the family and replaced it with means tested benefit.If you made it contribution based massive amounts of people would have zero income.

The answer is to make it available after 5 years of a national insurance number.That would also stop giving benefits for children until they were 5,unless you only based it on the parent.

Tax credits are a disaster,they really are,though i notice today the government is going to remove a lot of the Lords powers.Pretty obvious how much they were relying on the tax credit changes going through.

[spyguy]

Because they destroyed the industrial base and the family and replaced it with means tested benefit.If you made it contribution based massive amounts of people would have zero income.

The answer is to make it available after 5 years of a national insurance number.That would also stop giving benefits for children until they were 5,unless you only based it on the parent.

Tax credits are a disaster,they really are,though i notice today the government is going to remove a lot of the Lords powers.Pretty obvious how much they were relying on the tax credit changes going through.

I'm surprised - well, not really - when I chat to people on FB and have a look at their status. Everyone's 'Self-employed' these days in the North these days.

Endless 'Nail Art, 'Avon' reps, etc etc.

Or the skills swap - Room needs replastering. Will swap for 2hours Rieki.

[durhamborn]

I'm surprised - well, not really - when I chat to people on FB and have a look at their status. Everyone's 'Self-employed' these days in the North these days.

Endless 'Nail Art, 'Avon' reps, etc etc.

Or the skills swap - Room needs replastering. Will swap for 2hours Rieki.

One of my friends has just packed in a decent 45 hour job.He has taken 8 hours self employed as a pizza delivery man for a local kebab shop.Two four hour shifts,tax credits work out £300 a week on top and £80 DLA they get for a child for ADHD.

Its a no brainer in the north if you have kids.Self employed and tax credits.Why work?

[happy_renting]

Cameron has manouvred himself imto an absurd 'negotiating' position.

Essentailly, he wants the EU to make concessions or we may vote to leave.

Once(/if) we get the concessions, we will be allowed to vote on a Brexit. So we might still leave the EU.

So there really is no great incentive for the EU to make the concessions in the first place.

[spyguy]

Cameron has manouvred himself imto an absurd 'negotiating' position.

Essentailly, he wants the EU to make concessions or we may vote to leave.

Once(/if) we get the concessions, we will be allowed to vote on a Brexit. So we might still leave the EU.

So there really is no great incentive for the EU to make the concessions in the first place.

Yes he has.

FFS the UK is hosting a lot of Fench and Spanish, never mind about 3M EEs.

A Brexit would cause massive social unrest and financial upset in a lot of EU countries.

But FFS why do we stick to a needs based welfare system. It is fcking nuts.

[long time lurking]

I think you're bang on there - it's such an obvious thing to do it makes you wonder what the agenda really is. Why exactly is he so unwilling to introduce a contributions test for native TC claimants too?

To many natives would be affected

[EssKay]

Because they destroyed the industrial base and the family and replaced it with means tested benefit.If you made it contribution based massive amounts of people would have zero income.

The answer is to make it available after 5 years of a national insurance number.That would also stop giving benefits for children until they were 5,unless you only based it on the parent.

Income support and JSA would surely prevent people from having no income though?

From what I can see, all TCs do is provide a prop for unproductive work (whilst pissing off everyone who can't or won't play the <16 hours game). Removing that prop might force a lot of people onto non-working benefits, but at least it would allow us to focus on the real issues in the economy.

Your solution of limiting TCs to those who've had an NI number for >5 years would certainly deal with migrant TC issue, but wouldn't do much to address the unproductive work issue.

[EssKay]

To many natives would be affected

I'm tempted to say "so what?" - TCs are unsustainable and need to be stopped. Besides, Osborne has already revealed his hand by trying to curb/do away with them already - those votes are already lost

Taking a more pragmatic view though - you could phase it in - maybe by allowing a 2 year grace period after which you would have to have had 5 years of contributions/work history before being able to claim TCs. That would allow marginal cases to build up their history, whilst still stopping new migrant TC claims and the flow of new people looking for a subsidised, unproductive "lifestyle" job

[Steppenpig]

.....If you made it contribution based massive amounts of people would have zero income.

I think with what people are calling a contribution based system can still be redistributive (I assume that was how NI was originally intended). The richer still pay in more and the poor get more out. Basiclly it requires some sort of minimum input, or as you suggest, minimum qualifying period.

[Steppenpig]

Our ruling elite will fight tooth and nail to stay in. Can you imagine how dreary it is trying to sort out traffic and health problems in Birmingham, when you could be flying off to Brussels and talking about important stuf like war and immigrants and climatalogolyísm?