Tax Credit Sad Face :-((((((

[geezer466]

So for three years the writing was on the wall but they sat back and did nothing?

I sympathise to their predicament but they haven't paid in to the Oz system have they?

Not to worry they can come back and soft Britain will sort them out but at least these people will have paid in.....

[Hectors House]

Was speaking to someone who works for JCP, they reckon that DWP messed around so HMRC would let them run it on their own, apparently, they have a system up and running. HMRC are only dealing with legacy claimants for tax credits everything else is being funnelled into Universal Credit

 

[spyguy]

9 hours ago, Hectors House said:

Was speaking to someone who works for JCP, they reckon that DWP messed around so HMRC would let them run it on their own, apparently, they have a system up and running. HMRC are only dealing with legacy claimants for tax credits everything else is being funnelled into Universal Credit

 

Gidiot had a window to sort out tax credits.

Being 'clever' he flipped it to IBS who embarked in a system of Brownian complexity, made even worse as the computer systems were required to magically appear and do tge hard stuff which he failed to spec out.

Pissing around with UC wasted 5 years and resukted in the Brexit vote.

A simple bumping up of TC hours to 38/w and cutting back the extra payouts would have sorted the system out - 400m topup over benefits for families that hold down a FT jib. It really is not that fcking hard.

 

[Houdini]

32 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Gidiot had a window to sort out tax credits.

Being 'clever' he flipped it to IBS who embarked in a system of Brownian complexity, made even worse as the computer systems were required to magically appear and do tge hard stuff which he failed to spec out.

Pissing around with UC wasted 5 years and resukted in the Brexit vote.

A simple bumping up of TC hours to 38/w and cutting back the extra payouts would have sorted the system out - 400m topup over benefits for families that hold down a FT jib. It really is not that fcking hard.

 

Bumping TC up to 30+ hours a week would have resulted at least half of people working to get TCs ending up being unemployed itself and that would have been publicly visible via the unemployment figures. Hence it bumping it up was never a political feasible option. The solution was to move our benefits system to contribution based in the mid 00's which was equally politically unacceptable to the Brown but would have stop EE's immediately grabbing tax credits...

As with virtually everything that is wrong in the modern world when you look in detail there is always multiple reasons why things are still insane and at the top of the reason list for virtually every issue you can find Gordon Brown's name...

[Guest]

This is a meaty thread, I actually remember this original sorry, without starting the argument all over again I was not on weeping part time working nail artists(whatever they are called) side. For starters I think weeping like that in front of millions does not make her perspective or views correct, I even find it manipulative and felt sorry for Rudd.

I have gone back a few pages on this thread and yet again you guys have come out with some  great points on both sides, but this is one thread I am now leaving and not reading any more as good as it is. I just cannot stomach it and it is just too upsetting , I am not the sharpest tool, and I am in  awe of a few of the posters on this board, but I am borderline MENSA and not stupid, yet I cannot for the life of me fully understand tax credits or how welfare or housing benefit works, are people really claiming HB while earning £2000 per month?

I have never claimed benefits ever , I have had to take on a second job in my life as a driver many years ago to get by, I have slept in my van when younger though I still through pride and being stubborn refuse to have seen myself as homeless, I also have close to zero family.  I need more money I work harder and cleverer. I have paid ever bill, every bit of rent, it all came out of my pocket, I refuse not to believe that hard work will eventually  pay  dividends eventually, though it is getting harder.

It is quite clear the devious, lazy, selfish and manipulative(and I have a few more) are sitting down with pen and paper and working a plan where they can get screw the system for as much as they can and for doing as little as they can, this is why I have to stop reading this thread.

 

P.S  I am a supporter of the welfare state, at least the welfare state that was was set up as a safety net for hardship, and I do understand that not everyone on welfare 2017 is a scrounger, far from it

 

[spyguy]

47 minutes ago, wotsthat said:

This is a meaty thread, I actually remember this original sorry, without starting the argument all over again I was not on weeping part time working nail artists(whatever they are called) side. For starters I think weeping like that in front of millions does not make her perspective or views correct, I even find it manipulative and felt sorry for Rudd.

I have gone back a few pages on this thread and yet again you guys have come out with some  great points on both sides, but this is one thread I am now leaving and not reading any more as good as it is. I just cannot stomach it and it is just too upsetting , I am not the sharpest tool, and I am in  awe of a few of the posters on this board, but I am borderline MENSA and not stupid, yet I cannot for the life of me fully understand tax credits or how welfare or housing benefit works, are people really claiming HB while earning £2000 per month?

I have never claimed benefits ever , I have had to take on a second job in my life as a driver many years ago to get by, I have slept in my van when younger though I still through pride and being stubborn refuse to have seen myself as homeless, I also have close to zero family.  I need more money I work harder and cleverer. I have paid ever bill, every bit of rent, it all came out of my pocket, I refuse not to believe that hard work will eventually  pay  dividends eventually, though it is getting harder.

It is quite clear the devious, lazy, selfish and manipulative(and I have a few more) are sitting down with pen and paper and working a plan where they can get screw the system for as much as they can and for doing as little as they can, this is why I have to stop reading this thread.

 

P.S  I am a supporter of the welfare state, at least the welfare state that was was set up as a safety net for hardship, and I do understand that not everyone on welfare 2017 is a scrounger, far from it

 

Closing your eyes dont make the bad things go away.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Closing your eyes dont make the bad things go away.

I am only too aware what is going on.

Sadly I am at the moment powerless like so many of us to do anything about it.

[durhamborn]

14 minutes ago, wotsthat said:

I am only too aware what is going on.

Sadly I am at the moment powerless like so many of us to do anything about it.

Osborne had a chance to sort them out and did about a third of what was needed.The two child limit was a very important move.The others he didnt do were to increase the hours rules and cut the amount you can earn before the means test kicks in.As Spy says tax credits are probably the main reason we left the EU,but the dunce MPs cant connect the two.

I was tipped off by someone very high in the treasury (civil servant) that they wanted to get to the stage where tax credits ended for everyone at National minimum wage x 1.5.In other words 1 partner working full time one on 16 hours.Osborne attempted that with the two child limit,removal of the family element and the two bits he didnt get through the lords and dropped.A lower allowable earnings level before your means tested and a higher means test rate.The benefit freeze we do have when added to that would get them to their target with inflation at 2.5% in 7 years.

Now they have blown the political capital they are avoiding welfare reform.Its highly likely now we will see very little,if any.They will probably keep away from it because they dont want to focus minds in the press or the left on the benefits freeze.By 2020 inflation will be starting its run up to double figures five years later so they probably wont be able to repeat the freeze though they might be able to run the increases lower than inflation and finish the job.

Instead of tackling tax credits head on they have decided to push the pension age back instead.Those loving their £400 a week for 16 hours work wont be so happy when they  get to 50,their youngest hits 18 and they see its 18 years until pension age.Thats a long time with no assets,no savings,a full time NMW job and two sons in the back bedroom who cant get a job and are sanctioned.

[mathschoc]

It seems tax credits are regarded as income when applying for a mortgage- shocked by this, never had a mortgage so this is news to me

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/divorce_separation/2896103-mortgage-lenders-who-take-tax-credits-maintenance-into-account

[Talking Monkey]

1 hour ago, durhamborn said:

Osborne had a chance to sort them out and did about a third of what was needed.The two child limit was a very important move.The others he didnt do were to increase the hours rules and cut the amount you can earn before the means test kicks in.As Spy says tax credits are probably the main reason we left the EU,but the dunce MPs cant connect the two.

I was tipped off by someone very high in the treasury (civil servant) that they wanted to get to the stage where tax credits ended for everyone at National minimum wage x 1.5.In other words 1 partner working full time one on 16 hours.Osborne attempted that with the two child limit,removal of the family element and the two bits he didnt get through the lords and dropped.A lower allowable earnings level before your means tested and a higher means test rate.The benefit freeze we do have when added to that would get them to their target with inflation at 2.5% in 7 years.

Now they have blown the political capital they are avoiding welfare reform.Its highly likely now we will see very little,if any.They will probably keep away from it because they dont want to focus minds in the press or the left on the benefits freeze.By 2020 inflation will be starting its run up to double figures five years later so they probably wont be able to repeat the freeze though they might be able to run the increases lower than inflation and finish the job.

Instead of tackling tax credits head on they have decided to push the pension age back instead.Those loving their £400 a week for 16 hours work wont be so happy when they  get to 50,their youngest hits 18 and they see its 18 years until pension age.Thats a long time with no assets,no savings,a full time NMW job and two sons in the back bedroom who cant get a job and are sanctioned.

You get those who really game it by dropping a kid in their early 40s so they can benefit all the way up to 60, allowing them to get it until the kid is 18 is a bit much should be when the kid starts high school or something like that

[durhamborn]

3 minutes ago, Talking Monkey said:

You get those who really game it by dropping a kid in their early 40s so they can benefit all the way up to 60, allowing them to get it until the kid is 18 is a bit much should be when the kid starts high school or something like that

They do,but its very hard to design a system to stop that.One child, tax credits are generous,but not hugely so.Its the two,three and four with one or two down on DLA where the big money is.Like Spy says if they increased the hours rules once a child was at school it would solve a lot of that.In Universal Credit though there is no hours rule at all.You can work 1 hour and get the whole amount.For people already on tax credits there has been no cuts at all.Zero.

I find it incredible that the worst family in my home town,who cause trouble,rob,burgle,steal cars etc have had over a million between them in benefits over the years.The decent family in the same street get nothing apart from a few quid family allowance.No wonder we are in such a mess.

[fluteroop]

Don't want to turn this into a Brexit/immigration thing, but why should the family (who have never set foot in Britain), of an economic migrant be entitled to British Tax payers' kickbacks, as is the fact at present?

Nobody even talks about it.

[MARTINX9]

2 hours ago, fluteroop said:

Don't want to turn this into a Brexit/immigration thing, but why should the family (who have never set foot in Britain), of an economic migrant be entitled to British Tax payers' kickbacks, as is the fact at present?

Nobody even talks about it.

Don't forget the Other benefits for EU nationals

Bring Granny over and she is entitled to free social care as she has no UK assets or income as well as NHS care  - while your parents and grandparents who at least paid in for forty years have to pay £20 an hour for a home help or £5k a month for a care home

no tuition fees in Scotland - but English, Welsh and NI kids attending uni in Scotland (whose parents are paying for free tuition in Scotland) have to pay full tuition fees

free NHS care at the point of use immediately - which is not reciprocal generally if we move to almost all other EU states permanently as they have social insurance and often private systems. You have to go private if your employer doesn't provide you with insurance 

child benefit at UK rates for kids they have seemingly abandoned back home

NI exemptions if they go home once every six months for a couple of weeks

 

 

[mrdirkles]

2 hours ago, fluteroop said:

Don't want to turn this into a Brexit/immigration thing, but why should the family (who have never set foot in Britain), of an economic migrant be entitled to British Tax payers' kickbacks, as is the fact at present?

Nobody even talks about it.

Purely because if you were to talk about this not only would people not believe they would label you as some sort of swivel eyed loony extremist type. Therefore people just keep quiet but every now and then you do come across someone who thinks the system is unfair. The funniest bit is that the only people who I work with that think the system is are Italian and French. 

 

[mrdirkles]

1 minute ago, mrdirkles said:

The funniest bit is that the only people who I work with that think the system is unfair are Italian and French. 

Corrected

[durhamborn]

2 hours ago, MARTINX9 said:

Don't forget the Other benefits for EU nationals

Bring Granny over and she is entitled to free social care as she has no UK assets or income as well as NHS care  - while your parents and grandparents who at least paid in for forty years have to pay £20 an hour for a home help or £5k a month for a care home

no tuition fees in Scotland - but English, Welsh and NI kids attending uni in Scotland (whose parents are paying for free tuition in Scotland) have to pay full tuition fees

free NHS care at the point of use immediately - which is not reciprocal generally if we move to almost all other EU states permanently as they have social insurance and often private systems. You have to go private if your employer doesn't provide you with insurance 

child benefit at UK rates for kids they have seemingly abandoned back home

NI exemptions if they go home once every six months for a couple of weeks

 

 

Why did the North East vote so heavily for Brexit?

A Polish woman works in Aldi 16 hours and claims for 4 children back in Poland.Gets £340 a week tax credits plus her rent paid.

She moves in 7 of her male relations fiddling of course.They all live there free,her rent and council tax paid.They all work in a local factory.

The wages used to be £12 an hour.They are now £7.50.Mostly Polish work there.

The English lads who did work there cant afford it on £7.50 an hour as they are married with a child and pay full rent and full council tax,oh and all the other tax to be given to said Polish.They cant compete against the fiddling and benefits unless they themselves split up and do the same.

Not hearsay.Happening everywhere.

Thats what you get when you open your borders to the world with a means tested benefit system instead of a contribution based one.

[Option5]

2 minutes ago, durhamborn said:

They all work in a local factory.

Key point, It's not their fault, they work, probably the only jobs they can get. Blame the employers who want (and advertise for) cheap eastern European labour, how do you think these people know how to exploit the system?

[spyguy]

5 hours ago, mathschoc said:

It seems tax credits are regarded as income when applying for a mortgage- shocked by this, never had a mortgage so this is news to me

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/divorce_separation/2896103-mortgage-lenders-who-take-tax-credits-maintenance-into-account

I guess it depends on the vank. Id not count them as they xan be stopped by ukgov.

[spyguy]

24 minutes ago, durhamborn said:

Why did the North East vote so heavily for Brexit?

A Polish woman works in Aldi 16 hours and claims for 4 children back in Poland.Gets £340 a week tax credits plus her rent paid.

She moves in 7 of her male relations fiddling of course.They all live there free,her rent and council tax paid.They all work in a local factory.

The wages used to be £12 an hour.They are now £7.50.Mostly Polish work there.

The English lads who did work there cant afford it on £7.50 an hour as they are married with a child and pay full rent and full council tax,oh and all the other tax to be given to said Polish.They cant compete against the fiddling and benefits unless they themselves split up and do the same.

Not hearsay.Happening everywhere.

Thats what you get when you open your borders to the world with a means tested benefit system instead of a contribution based one.

I had my yearly day in Scarborough, walking round town. Something ive done for about 20 years, just to get the feel if the place is going up and down.

I was genuinely shocked by the number of EE shops. And the large groups of Romanian and Bulgarians walking around - balkans stick out like a sore thumb, Polish dont til they open their mouths.

Theres no well paying jobs, just low paid crap and TCs.

The official fugures say theres aroubd 3m EE in the UK. Ive always claimed 6m. After thus years walk about i reckon its close to 10m couting kids and sifa surfking grandoarents and cash in hand friends.

 

[Diver Dan]

Is the two children rule, two children at any one time or two children ever?

The latter would be preferable in my opinion.

[durhamborn]

20 hours ago, Diver Dan said:

Is the two children rule, two children at any one time or two children ever?

The latter would be preferable in my opinion.

Two at any one time.Our locals have found a way around it already.One lass who has had her third has put it down as living with her mother who is on DLA and she is claiming the tax credits instead.Kid doesnt live there of course but the money rolls in.Business as usual.

[durhamborn]

3 hours ago, fru-gal said:

Why don't you report her?

Because nothing will be done.There is massive fraud in every town in the country,massive.The risk is pretty much zero.How do you prove or not if a child lives with the grandparent?.

[mrtickle]

1 hour ago, durhamborn said:

Because nothing will be done.There is massive fraud in every town in the country,massive.The risk is pretty much zero.How do you prove or not if a child lives with the grandparent?.

So do we all just give up? This is SO depressing. I thought the two child limit was a game-changer.

Two child limit was seen as a key change to save money - but massive fraud means they all get around it.

Then even if they change the threshold from 16 to 30 - massive fraud means they will all get around it.

[Diver Dan]

1 hour ago, fru-gal said:

I think a lot of people have seen the politicians saying one thing and doing another and they just think "if I can't beat them, I'll join them". Even on this forum you see members saying they are going to jack it and work minimum hours to not go over the tax threshold, even Durhamborn has said this. Can't blame them when the system is so stacked against anyone trying to do the "right thing". 

The system as designed seems to fail to differentiate between those who can't work hard and those who won't.

A friend of mine (from a British Overseas Territory, works a 9-5 + overtime, single, massive student loan payments to a bank back home, above benefits thresholds etc) had his appendix out at the weekend and was told that he is not to go back to his office job for two weeks. His work say that he's only entitled to statutory sick pay of £89.35 per week. No help with his rent or anything. He's facing the decision to defy medical advice and struggle into work and risk complications or staying at home and going into debt.

I'm feeling very cross about the excessive benefits provisions for some but when others need help, they get not much more than a token gesture.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Diver Dan

[durhamborn]

52 minutes ago, fru-gal said:

I think a lot of people have seen the politicians saying one thing and doing another and they just think "if I can't beat them, I'll join them". Even on this forum you see members saying they are going to jack it and work minimum hours to not go over the tax threshold, even Durhamborn has said this. Can't blame them when the system is so stacked against anyone trying to do the "right thing". 

Exactly right.The only way there will be real reform is when the people paying the tax wake up or a reflation cycle.We are about to get both i think.

I pretty much retired at 39 bar working 6 hours a week roughly now to earn the tax allowance as i value my free time more than anything.No debts,house paid and self made investment portfolio that i hardly ever need to touch,but if needed would last 37 years at a 6% a year return as it stands.I live frugal but could live on a lot less than i do.Im pretty convinced the next cycle will favour workers and the un-leveraged though and people are in for a generational shock.There will be huge investment by governments,but it wont be in welfare.

The UK welfare system needed a few changes,but was quite harsh before Gordon Brown got in.It provided a safety net,but wasnt something youd want to be on for too long.Brown changed that to making everyone earning less than £35k a year pretty much have the same income if you worked 16 hours doing spray tans in your front room,or 50 hours doing night shifts flogging on in a factory.Bonkers.