Turned Out Nice Again

The Road To <10% Body Fat

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5 hours ago, workingpoor said:

Just like all bodybuilding / weight training, roid'ing it needs to be done forever if you want to avoid turning into a stretched bag of xxxx in your late forties / early fifties. 

Hence why i don't bother with it anymore, it's all temporary and in most cases just hypertrophic pumped up "beach muscles" made of water. 

Much better to get the boxer / swimmer / wirery / "bruce lee" look through hard physical training like plyometrics / TRX etc IMO 

Yes, because it's entirely possible to lift 250kg using a muscle that is a bag of water.

I don't totally disagree with your point, but without wanting to be unkind I suspect you have neither body type. And if I'm right you're just another armchair critic of many people who put a lot of hard work in over a long time.

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I'm not a fan of the look either. The gym I currently go to has a lot of 'roid users there. A very small number of them are freakishly large to the extent that they look out of place even in a spit & sawdust muscle gym environment, but to be fair they compete professionally - as far as they're concerned I go with Dorian Yates' view, which is that there's no point juicing unless you want to compete, but clearly you're not going to be able to compete if you don't. That makes it an informed choice so fair enough IMO.

There's a much greater majority of guys there who actually don't look ridiculous in that environment, because your perception is distorted by sheer volume of oversized blokes. But when you see them in their normal clothes outside of the gym, it's very noticeable and not a desirable look IMO.

Certainly not worth taking the risks for, anyway.

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12 hours ago, workingpoor said:

Much better to get the boxer / swimmer / wirery / "bruce lee" look through hard physical training like plyometrics / TRX etc IMO 

Aside from the rather silly "muscles made of water" comment, I'm wondering whether you realise how different swimmers' bodies are from "wirey" types like a ripped bruce lee? Indeed, Bruce Lee could not swim, a fact attested to by his sister:

I would suggest there is a very good reason for that, and it wouldn't have been strength or coordination (a wild guess on my part).

Going forward, you might consider avoiding sentences that contain a mix of topics of muscles and water. They aren't as far as I can see a strong point of yours! :P

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ccc   

To be fair some swimmers do have bodies that are quite 'wirey' but I suppose it depends on your definition ! Phelps was incredibly toned with minimal bodyfat at his peak. BUt yes most swimmers have a slightly 'larger' look to them than your Bruce Lee like bods. Then again you also get a fair number of boxers who are far from wirey too. Canelo for example has a rather broad stout body to him.

Anyway I think the point was none of these look like they have been pumped up :) 

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12 minutes ago, ccc said:

 

Anyway I think the point was none of these look like they have been pumped up :) 

On the contrary, I think the point was that the examples were easier to maintain.

Bruce-Lee-Measurements.jpg

Does anyone really believe that?

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11 minutes ago, Sledgehead said:

On the contrary, I think the point was that the examples were easier to maintain.

Bruce-Lee-Measurements.jpg

Does anyone really believe that?

Yes my point was that you have to maintain that pumped look forever

(i've heard many people say that "if you could only keep the pump" i.e that couple of hours when you come out of the gym and are pumped to the max. 

Yes the bruce lee look is incredibly hard to maintain those models on the cover of mens health only achive those abs for a short period in 12 months. 

It is all hard graft to get any sort of pump or leanness both require incredible amounts of discipline

Consistency is key in whatever you do.

But if Bruce Lee let it go south he would have had an easier time of it than Schwarzenegger. 

Edited by workingpoor

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ccc   

Aye that seems a fair point. Lots of blokes that really bulk up get man boobs etc. when they get older. All the eating as well must be difficult to cut down on if you ease off it ?

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I read an interview with Stallone a while back where explained that to get this ripped look (in about 2013 when he was about 65), was only possible for a couple of days at a time, required perfect planning ect...and couldn't be maintained while staying healthy. And this is from a guy who's been training for decades and is on hormone replacement:

stallone-bullet-465.jpg

Edited by JoeDavola

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8 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

I read an interview with Stallone a while back where explained that to get this ripped look (in about 2013 when he was about 65), was only possible for a couple of days at a time, required perfect planning ect...and couldn't be maintained while staying healthy. And this is from a guy who's been training for decades and is on hormone replacement:

stallone-bullet-465.jpg

I'll wager it was based around "water retention" (reducing it)

Edited by workingpoor

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2 minutes ago, workingpoor said:

I'll wager it was based around "water retention" (reducing it)

Yeah your spot on. I think basically what you do is drink tons every day for a week or two, then drink feck all for a day or two to flush it all out. No doubt movie stars also take diuretics of some sort too. A lot of trouble for the average pleb, and potentially dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.

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ccc   

They will also use make up.

That sort of look from dehydration cant be good for you. The difference from many boxers from weigh in to 24 hours later can be amazing. Not to say they look anything like 'fat' after but that chiselled out of oak look can just disappear.

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2 minutes ago, ccc said:

They will also use make up.

That sort of look from dehydration cant be good for you. The difference from many boxers from weigh in to 24 hours later can be amazing. Not to say they look anything like 'fat' after but that chiselled out of oak look can just disappear.

I remember also reading a report from a natural bodybuilder who said that when he lost most of his fat to get 'ripped' for an extended period he lost his libido and generally felt crap.

I know it's impressive looking, but at the risk of sounding like a fat feminist, I don't think it's a healthy body image for men to be aiming for.

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18 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

I remember also reading a report from a natural bodybuilder who said that when he lost most of his fat to get 'ripped' for an extended period he lost his libido and generally felt crap.

I know it's impressive looking, but at the risk of sounding like a fat feminist, I don't think it's a healthy body image for men to be aiming for.

 

You know what? I'm thinking peeps are just quiting before they've even started. They want an excuse to watch telly.

Forget juice. Forget bulking and shredding.

Just eat a bit more protein, lift so you can do no more than 12 reps. Do maybe 5 to 6 sets. Balance your muscle groups. Read some anatomy books to help you safely isolate muscle groups. Buy your own free weights. Train 3 times a week. If you wanna train more often, train different groups on alternating days. Keep a log of your progress.

You might surprise yourself.

You might even enjoy the telly more. You'll still notice all the fit burds, but you can also amuse yourself keeping a running total of the guys you are buffer than. :D

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22 minutes ago, workingpoor said:

2 pints of lager and a packet o crisps, and those abs be gone! :lol:

 

ccc claims that is not the case.

I dunno. I always eat healthily so I wouldn't know.

What is it we are trying to achieve anyhow? I thought it was fitness / health. Alcohol is empty calories. Why not just eat a bag of sugar and dull your appetite for essential stuff even more?

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5 minutes ago, Sledgehead said:

 

You know what? I'm thinking peeps are just quiting before they've even started. They want an excuse to watch telly.

Forget juice. Forget bulking and shredding.

Just eat a bit more protein, lift so you can do no more than 12 reps. Do maybe 5 to 6 sets. Balance your muscle groups. Read some anatomy books to help you safely isolate muscle groups. Buy your own free weights. Train 3 times a week. If you wanna train more often, train different groups on alternating days. Keep a log of your progress.

You might surprise yourself.

You might even enjoy the telly more. You'll still notice all the fit burds, but you can also amuse yourself keeping a running total of the guys you are buffer than. :D

To be clear - I'm not suggesting that people don't lift.

I've started lifting twice a week and since I'm a noob I'm able to either increase the amounts of sets or increase the weight I'm using by a small amount pretty much every week. Feels great, the best decision I've made in ages.

But I'm not worried about whether I've reached super-low bodyfat and whether I can see my abs or not.

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20 minutes ago, Sledgehead said:

ccc claims that is not the case.

I dunno. I always eat healthily so I wouldn't know.

What is it we are trying to achieve anyhow? I thought it was fitness / health. Alcohol is empty calories. Why not just eat a bag of sugar and dull your appetite for essential stuff even more?

I wanted to be shredded like the bloke on the cover of mens health, but then i realised that it is only a short term thing. 

I don't want to go back to weight training i spent over 2 years doing it (exactly as you pointed out above 3 times a week, i started off doing random stuff like isolation lifts but then realised compound lifts are where its at so i focused solely on Deads Squats Mil Press Bent over rows and B/press, got the best over all size from compounds, i ate masses of protein but also dirty bulked and never really got lean. 

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Most men can have visible abs year round without losing their libido or being on some extreme regime. You might have abs at 15% bodyfat and you definitely will by 10%. I'm not talking super chiseled here but still pretty buff looking compared to most. 

Competitive bodybuilders get down to way lower levels of bodyfat. Dorian Yates reckons it gets painful to walk because you lose the cushioning on the bottom of your feet. :blink:

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9 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

To be clear - I'm not suggesting that people don't lift.

I've started lifting twice a week and since I'm a noob I'm able to either increase the amounts of sets or increase the weight I'm using by a small amount pretty much every week. Feels great, the best decision I've made in ages.

But I'm not worried about whether I've reached super-low bodyfat and whether I can see my abs or not.

You are a slim build guy who watches what he eats from what I understand, so you certainly should not be worried about the body fat issue.

You have a cardio exercise history, so you most likely won't be needing to visit your doc for the okay. What's your BP? Probably really good. Max BP probably nowhere near achieved in lifting so no issue.

You've mentioned injury before, so I'd reckon this is your main concern. I can't stress enough being your own expert on injuries. Take time to understand what underlying muscle groups you need to tighten up and how to do it. Only then will the progress you are enjoying on your larger, superficial (overlying) muscle groups be baked in. Don't assume overall fitness will protect you. If you've achieved cardio performance on your legs (running, cycling etc) you may still have sloppy rotator cuff muscles for example. Don't skimp on these muscle groups. True, they're pretty invisible, but if you haven't toned them up, you'll soon develop problems even as your overlying groups swell.

Great to hear you are enjoying your progress. That's how it should be. Take it slow and keep in mind why you are doing this.

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28 minutes ago, Sledgehead said:

 

You know what? I'm thinking peeps are just quiting before they've even started. They want an excuse to watch telly.

Forget juice. Forget bulking and shredding.

Just eat a bit more protein, lift so you can do no more than 12 reps. Do maybe 5 to 6 sets. Balance your muscle groups. Read some anatomy books to help you safely isolate muscle groups. Buy your own free weights. Train 3 times a week. If you wanna train more often, train different groups on alternating days. Keep a log of your progress.

You might surprise yourself.

You might even enjoy the telly more. You'll still notice all the fit burds, but you can also amuse yourself keeping a running total of the guys you are buffer than. :D

I think it's worse than that sledgey, to me it's people who can't/won't criticising people who can/do.

Oooh, but what about the moobs when you're 50?? Hmmm... What about the banging loads of fitties when you're 25?

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2 minutes ago, frozen_out said:

I think it's worse than that sledgey, to me it's people who can't/won't criticising people who can/do.

Oooh, but what about the moobs when you're 50?? Hmmm... What about the banging loads of fitties when you're 25?

I have done it, back when it was "cool" B)

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2 minutes ago, workingpoor said:

I wanted to be shredded like the bloke on the cover of mens health, but then i realised that it is only a short term thing. 

I don't want to go back to weight training i spent over 2 years doing it (exactly as you pointed out above 3 times a week, i started off doing random stuff like isolation lifts but then realised compound lifts are where its at so i focused solely on Deads Squats Mil Press Bent over rows and B/press, got the best over all size from compounds, i ate masses of protein but also dirty bulked and never really got lean. 

Yeah, compounds are where you want to be. I was talking isolation for peeps who have had injuries before as they often need to isolate small, joint supportive muscles before they can push things in compounds.

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1 minute ago, Sledgehead said:

You are a slim build guy who watches what he eats from what I understand, so you certainly should not be worried about the body fat issue.

You have a cardio exercise history, so you most likely won't be needing to visit your doc for the okay. What's your BP? Probably really good. Max BP probably nowhere near achieved in lifting so no issue.

You've mentioned injury before, so I'd reckon this is your main concern. I can't stress enough being your own expert on injuries. Take time to understand what underlying muscle groups you need to tighten up and how to do it. Only then will the progress you are enjoying on your larger, superficial (overlying) muscle groups be baked in. Don't assume overall fitness will protect you. If you've achieved cardio performance on your legs (running, cycling etc) you may still have sloppy rotator cuff muscles for example. Don't skimp on these muscle groups. True, they're pretty invisible, but if you haven't toned them up, you'll soon develop problems even as your overlying groups swell.

Great to hear you are enjoying your progress. That's how it should be. Take it slow and keep in mind why you are doing this.

Yeah slim and eating clean - haven't had BP done in a while but never had a problem with it.

I've got a few niggles to iron out, feet prone to pronation, some anterior pelvic tilt and as you say shoulder/rotator cuff is very easy to injure - but I like learning about this kinda thing so in parallell with doing the exercise I'm gonna learn more about anatomy - if there's any books you reccomend let me know - I've got Frederick Delavier's 'Strength Training Anatomy' from ages ago so going to start by reading that.

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11 minutes ago, Sledgehead said:

Yeah, compounds are where you want to be. I was talking isolation for peeps who have had injuries before as they often need to isolate small, joint supportive muscles before they can push things in compounds.

That is a good point i suffered with my right rotator cuff on bench press, to the point i only lowered until my arms were level with my torso (not below) 

i was told i needed to strengthen the small stabilser muscles around my right shoulder, i did delt flys for a while and YTWL's with light dumbells, i fear it would still flare up at some point if i went back to lifting

out of interest if you were benching where are your elbows? jacked up level with shoulders or tucked at 45deg? and hand spacing? 

i found unracking and reracking to be risky for the rotator cuff? (with the arms going back past the head shoulders carrying weight)

even getting heavy'ish dumbells up into position for bench or shoulder press can strain the rotator cuffs, i used to do the "prop them on your knees and roll back trick" 

Edited by workingpoor

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5 minutes ago, frozen_out said:

I think it's worse than that sledgey, to me it's people who can't/won't criticising people who can/do.

Oooh, but what about the moobs when you're 50?? Hmmm... What about the banging loads of fitties when you're 25?

The moob thing: do people still honestly believe that?

Crazy.

Maybe if you go from hero to zero. But how many Arnies decide to just do absolutely nothing when they turn 50?

Okay, maybe roids enable a certain type of lazy bulker, but nobody here is advocating that.

I'm really concerned that, going forward, people are gonna believe it's all or nothing. To put it in a couch potato fashion, the choice is between Vincent or Ian Beale. People are increasingly looking at buff guys and saying : must be steroids, hence unhealthy. So they validate their desire to sit on a couch and develop type II, "cos the alternative is no healthier".

Now we hear that 8% of amateurs (sports people) admit to taking drugs and 35% know of somebody who does.

Given that the 2012 Russian Olympic team seem to have achieved success largely on juice, I guess that's our London "legacy" right there.

 

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