Turned Out Nice Again

The Road To <10% Body Fat

1,489 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, whitevanman said:

Putting on half a pound of muscle a week would be an exceptionally good result. It might be possible for a skinny teenager with high testosterone levels. I've put on about four pounds of muscle in a year. That's with twice weekly workouts lasting a hour each. I'm lifting the heaviest weights I possibly can and I'm sore for 3 days post workout. It took me about 8 months before i was reaching genuine physical limits, up to then is was more mental and coordination limits. I'm 38 by the way and was already quite strong from my job. When you get to a certain age it becomes an exercise in avoiding muscle wastage. I still love doing it though and it is great for overall physical and mental well-being.

I found it was like working and not getting paid :unsure:

(you can't bulk and not gain bodyfat, that is what cutting all about, 3 month winter bulk / 6 month pre summer cut)

Edited by workingpoor

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8 minutes ago, whitevanman said:

Putting on half a pound of muscle a week would be an exceptionally good result. It might be possible for a skinny teenager with high testosterone levels. I've put on about four pounds of muscle in a year. That's with twice weekly workouts lasting a hour each. I'm lifting the heaviest weights I possibly can and I'm sore for 3 days post workout. It took me about 8 months before i was reaching genuine physical limits, up to then is was more mental and coordination limits. I'm 38 by the way and was already quite strong from my job. When you get to a certain age it becomes an exercise in avoiding muscle wastage. I still love doing it though and it is great for overall physical and mental well-being.

Bugger - I'll curb my expectations somewhat!

I'm 33 and I was hoping that because I'm underweight and completely untrained (also very lean and not eating junk/boozing), that I might get some 'noob gains' in the first year. Maybe not.

Get what you're saying about muscle wastage - one of the things that drove me to start doing this was seeing blokes who were as skinny as me but were say 15 years older and they often looked gaunt, frail and ill. I think putting on and maintaining a bit of muscle as you age is a good thing.

Edited by JoeDavola

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Oh and to go off-topic somewhat, I'd love to know what the 'truth' actually is about testoserone replacement/steroids. Is there a safe 'minimal dose' that could restore my levels to that of my teenage self to help me see good gains in the first year, or is it all too dangerous.

There's plenty of chaps in hollywood that use test replacement/HRT/steroids to an extent - I wonder how dangerous it really is? Look at the shape stallone's in at 70 - if he drops dead tomorrow it will still have been 70 years in top shape - a life well lived.

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1 minute ago, JoeDavola said:

Bugger - I'll curb my expectations somewhat!

I'm 33 and I was hoping that because I'm underweight and completely untrained, that I might get some 'noob gains' in the first year. Maybe not.

Get what you're saying about muscle wastage - one of the things that drove me to start doing this was seeing blokes who were as skinny as me but were say 15 years older and they often looked gaunt, frail and ill. I think putting on and maintaining a bit of muscle as you age is a good thing.

You'll getvsome noob gainz in the first 3 months (mainly delts / lats and traps, possibly a "V" torso if you hit the Rows hard)

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7 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

Oh and to go off-topic somewhat, I'd love to know what the 'truth' actually is about testoserone replacement/steroids. Is there a safe 'minimal dose' that could restore my levels to that of my teenage self to help me see good gains in the first year, or is it all too dangerous.

There's plenty of chaps in hollywood that use test replacement/HRT/steroids to an extent - I wonder how dangerous it really is? Look at the shape stallone's in at 70 - if he drops dead tomorrow it will still have been 70 years in top shape - a life well lived.

In short "No" the risk you run is Roids shut down your testicals (testicular atropy / AKA shrunken xxxx) 

because your body is getting Test from an outside source (Roids) this is all fine and dandy until you come off the cycle then you need to hope that your testicles will naturally restart producing testosterone, 1 in 10 people don't and then have to go on Testosterone replacement for life. 

I once had £100 worth of Anavar in my hands as i was so into weights i seriously thought it was the next logical step to get more Gainz! luckily for me a shoulder injury put it on the back burner and i never did it.

Have you ever met any women at the Gym? or just been surrounded by blokes looking in mirrors? :wacko: 

Edited by workingpoor

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1 minute ago, workingpoor said:

In short "No" tge risk you run is Roids shut down your testicals (testicular atropy) because your bodybis getting Test from an outside soutce (Roids) this is all fine and dandy untill you come off the cycle then you need to hope that your testicles will naturally restart producing testisterone, 1 in 10 people don't and tgen have to go on Testosterone replacement for life. 

I once had £100 worth of Anavar in my hands as i was so into weights i serously thought it was the next logical step to get more Gainz! luckily for me a shoulder injury put it on the back burner and i never did it.

Yeah - probably not worth the risk when you self administer it.

Though these hollywood folk probably have endocrinologists and all that monitoring things and again I wonder what the actual risk is for those who can actually afford the best treatment. Obviously I'd be silly going on it at 33, but say at 50 if I felt everything was going off a cliff, and got tested and found my test had dropped sharply - it wouldn't half be tempting would it.... 

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2 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

Bugger - I'll curb my expectations somewhat!

I'm 33 and I was hoping that because I'm underweight and completely untrained, that I might get some 'noob gains' in the first year. Maybe not.

Get what you're saying about muscle wastage - one of the things that drove me to start doing this was seeing blokes who were as skinny as me but were say 15 years older and they often looked gaunt, frail and ill. I think putting on and maintaining a bit of muscle as you age is a good thing.

You'll probably experience very noticeable gains if you're starting from a modest base. Four pounds is noticeable, you might double that -very noticeable! 26 pounds in a year would be amazing but is probably only possible on the juice!

Too many blokes end up with the skinny-fat look as they get older, it's unhealthy, looks crap and damages self-confidence.

Being in calorie surplus helps a great deal, it's hard to put on any muscle otherwise. Workouts feel very flat if you're not eating enough.

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You're not likely short of test at 33, maybe at 50, yes. As Workingpoor said, once you're on it you can't easily come off it. It does work though, but there's a price. Lots of bodybuilders get in totally over their heads and end up ruining their health. Having said that there's a PC opposition to older men using hrt which doesn't apply to women. I put it down to societal hostility to men and masculinity. Feck 'em! 

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9 minutes ago, whitevanman said:

Too many blokes end up with the skinny-fat look as they get older, it's unhealthy, looks crap and damages self-confidence.

Being in calorie surplus helps a great deal, it's hard to put on any muscle otherwise. Workouts feel very flat if you're not eating enough.

Yeah I've got a mate the same age of me that I've known since we were 21 - he used to be even skinnier than me; the pair of us big tall gangly beanpoles.

He got married, drank and ate too much, and has put on weight, but mostly on his belly. A belly with skinny arms and legs and no chest is not a good look, so I'm trying to avoid that inevitable part of aging.

I'm gradually upping my calorie intake to try and find the 'sweet spot' where I gain weight at the right rate - once I've found that I have no problem being completely disciplined and eating pretty much the same thing every day.

Edited by JoeDavola

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8 minutes ago, whitevanman said:

You'll probably experience very noticeable gains if you're starting from a modest base. Four pounds is noticeable, you might double that -very noticeable! 26 pounds in a year would be amazing but is probably only possible on the juice!

Too many blokes end up with the skinny-fat look as they get older, it's unhealthy, looks crap and damages self-confidence.

Being in calorie surplus helps a great deal, it's hard to put on any muscle otherwise. Workouts feel very flat if you're not eating enough.

"Eat like Horse, Sleep like a Baby, Grow like a Weed" 

(bodybuilding mantra lol) 

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1 minute ago, whitevanman said:

You're not likely short of test at 33, maybe at 50, yes. As Workingpoor said, once you're on it you can't easily come off it. It does work though, but there's a price. Lots of bodybuilders get in totally over their heads and end up ruining their health. Having said that there's a PC opposition to older men using hrt which doesn't apply to women. I put it down to societal hostility to men and masculinity. Feck 'em! 

Yeah, like anything, there'll be a minimal effective dose. I've wondered if it would be prudent for every man to have a full hormone panel done in their mid/late 20's, and then use that as the gauge to try and get back to when they're in their 50's and beyond.

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Get your noob gainz and stick it for a year before even thinking of juicing. I had a workmate who went on the juice started injecting and them blew his shoulder (due to upping the weights on the juice) 

His "cycle" lasted about a month

This can be the reality!

Work hard (3 1hr sessions a week minimum) and eat big and you'll pack on some mass. 

If you want some "safe" assistance drop £50 on a tub of Maximuscle Cyclone (choc mint is the bomb, make with whole milk for extra cals)  and look at creatine

Edited by workingpoor

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This is quite an interesting study which would seem to support the high carb low fat diet for heart health.

https://health.spectator.co.uk/do-hunter-gatherer-bolivians-really-have-the-worlds-healthiest-hearts/

Quote

 

Members of an Amazonian community have been found to have the healthiest hearts of any population group yet studied, according to a report in The Lancet.The lifestyle of the Tsimané has been described as pre-industrial; they spend most of their time farming, hunting and fishing, and eat a diet that is mostly carbohydrate-based and low in saturated fats.They are also far more physically active than the average Westerner. Men in the community were found to take an average of 17,000 steps a day and women 16,000. The figure remained high in old age.The researchers, from Long Beach Memorial medical centre in California, examined hundreds of members of the group. They found that almost nine out of 10 had clear arteries showing no risk of heart disease. Almost two thirds of those over the age of 75 were classed as having virtually no risk of heart disease and just eight per cent had a moderate-to-high risk level.The study’s lead author, Professor Hillard Kaplan, said: ‘Our study shows that the Tsimané indigenous South Americans have the lowest prevalence of coronary atherosclerosis [hardening and narrowing of the arteries] of any population yet studied.

‘Their lifestyle suggests that a diet low in saturated fats and high in non-processed fibre-rich carbohydrates, along with wild game and fish, not smoking and being active throughout the day could help prevent hardening in the arteries of the heart.

 

http://thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)30752-3/fulltext?elsca1=tlpr (The study itself)

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/17/tsimane-of-the-bolivian-amazon-have-worlds-healthiest-hearts-says-study (The Guardians take on it)

Edited by SpectrumFX

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18 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

It's also strikingly low for Inuits and Masai people who live on very high fat diets, but similarly spend most of their lives endlessly walking around in a relatively low pollution environment.

Edited by Hail the Tripod

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1 hour ago, Hail the Tripod said:

It's also strikingly low for Inuits and Masai people who live on very high fat diets, but similarly spend most of their lives endlessly walking around in a relatively low pollution environment.

Good. I'm not a fan of high carb diets :)

Lots of low impact exercise seems to make sense as a general health cure all. 

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2 hours ago, Hail the Tripod said:

It's also strikingly low for Inuits and Masai people who live on very high fat diets, but similarly spend most of their lives endlessly walking around in a relatively low pollution environment.

I think that both high-carb and hiigh-fat diets have been shown to be healthy. What everyone seems to agree on is that high-fat PLUS high-carb is a killer.

Edited by Turned Out Nice Again

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On 3/12/2017 at 11:16 PM, workingpoor said:

Get your noob gainz and stick it for a year before even thinking of juicing. I had a workmate who went on the juice started injecting and them blew his shoulder (due to upping the weights on the juice) 

His "cycle" lasted about a month

This can be the reality!

Work hard (3 1hr sessions a week minimum) and eat big and you'll pack on some mass. 

If you want some "safe" assistance drop £50 on a tub of Maximuscle Cyclone (choc mint is the bomb, make with whole milk for extra cals)  and look at creatine

Personally I'd say train naturally for 5 years, get your diet dialled in, your form perfect and your discipline spot on before you even think about any synthetic help. Then if you still want it that badly, maybe it's worth considering. Too many people juice because they want a quick fix when they're not prepared to put the hard work in - in which case it's a waste of time anyway. I have no problem with guys juicing if they've achieved every ounce of gain they can naturally and still want to get bigger.

I do think it's sad for them that they feel that need, but it's not my place to judge - I have no idea what's going on in their lives.

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2 hours ago, Fully Detached said:

Personally I'd say train naturally for 5 years, get your diet dialled in, your form perfect and your discipline spot on before you even think about any synthetic help. Then if you still want it that badly, maybe it's worth considering. Too many people juice because they want a quick fix when they're not prepared to put the hard work in - in which case it's a waste of time anyway. I have no problem with guys juicing if they've achieved every ounce of gain they can naturally and still want to get bigger.

I do think it's sad for them that they feel that need, but it's not my place to judge - I have no idea what's going on in their lives.

There is no substitute for hard work. One of my best friends juices regularly, but also does 7-10 sessions a week in the gym. He's 17 stone, deadlifts 250kg, presses 120 and squats 180. You don't get that by taking steroids alone.

The only way to get stronger is to lift. That's it. There are good programs and not so good programs, but you have to lift regularly and for a long time. Starting strength or strong lifts are for beginners and should see you through 18 months-2 years if you do them properly.

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4 hours ago, Fully Detached said:

Personally I'd say train naturally for 5 years, get your diet dialled in, your form perfect and your discipline spot on before you even think about any synthetic help. Then if you still want it that badly, maybe it's worth considering. Too many people juice because they want a quick fix when they're not prepared to put the hard work in - in which case it's a waste of time anyway. I have no problem with guys juicing if they've achieved every ounce of gain they can naturally and still want to get bigger.

I do think it's sad for them that they feel that need, but it's not my place to judge - I have no idea what's going on in their lives.

I always found the steroid look to be ridiculous and grotesque. It's also very obvious to anyone in the know. Take a look a Steve Reeves for a natural look that is achievable through training and nutrition without the use of 'roids (they weren't invented yet). 

Edited by whitevanman

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Just like all bodybuilding / weight training, roid'ing it needs to be done forever if you want to avoid turning into a stretched bag of xxxx in your late forties / early fifties. 

Hence why i don't bother with it anymore, it's all temporary and in most cases just hypertrophic pumped up "beach muscles" made of water. 

Much better to get the boxer / swimmer / wirery / "bruce lee" look through hard physical training like plyometrics / TRX etc IMO 

Edited by workingpoor

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5 hours ago, workingpoor said:

Just like all bodybuilding / weight training, roid'ing it needs to be done forever if you want to avoid turning into a stretched bag of xxxx in your late forties / early fifties. 

Hence why i don't bother with it anymore, it's all temporary and in most cases just hypertrophic pumped up "beach muscles" made of water. 

Much better to get the boxer / swimmer / wirery / "bruce lee" look through hard physical training like plyometrics / TRX etc IMO 

Yes, because it's entirely possible to lift 250kg using a muscle that is a bag of water.

I don't totally disagree with your point, but without wanting to be unkind I suspect you have neither body type. And if I'm right you're just another armchair critic of many people who put a lot of hard work in over a long time.

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I'm not a fan of the look either. The gym I currently go to has a lot of 'roid users there. A very small number of them are freakishly large to the extent that they look out of place even in a spit & sawdust muscle gym environment, but to be fair they compete professionally - as far as they're concerned I go with Dorian Yates' view, which is that there's no point juicing unless you want to compete, but clearly you're not going to be able to compete if you don't. That makes it an informed choice so fair enough IMO.

There's a much greater majority of guys there who actually don't look ridiculous in that environment, because your perception is distorted by sheer volume of oversized blokes. But when you see them in their normal clothes outside of the gym, it's very noticeable and not a desirable look IMO.

Certainly not worth taking the risks for, anyway.

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12 hours ago, workingpoor said:

Much better to get the boxer / swimmer / wirery / "bruce lee" look through hard physical training like plyometrics / TRX etc IMO 

Aside from the rather silly "muscles made of water" comment, I'm wondering whether you realise how different swimmers' bodies are from "wirey" types like a ripped bruce lee? Indeed, Bruce Lee could not swim, a fact attested to by his sister:

I would suggest there is a very good reason for that, and it wouldn't have been strength or coordination (a wild guess on my part).

Going forward, you might consider avoiding sentences that contain a mix of topics of muscles and water. They aren't as far as I can see a strong point of yours! :P

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To be fair some swimmers do have bodies that are quite 'wirey' but I suppose it depends on your definition ! Phelps was incredibly toned with minimal bodyfat at his peak. BUt yes most swimmers have a slightly 'larger' look to them than your Bruce Lee like bods. Then again you also get a fair number of boxers who are far from wirey too. Canelo for example has a rather broad stout body to him.

Anyway I think the point was none of these look like they have been pumped up :) 

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12 minutes ago, ccc said:

 

Anyway I think the point was none of these look like they have been pumped up :) 

On the contrary, I think the point was that the examples were easier to maintain.

Bruce-Lee-Measurements.jpg

Does anyone really believe that?

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