New Silver Coin From Royal Mint

[anonguest]

I wonder if there is a way to 'force' these onto the public, albeit very very slowly and gradually - and make the Mint and other relevant PTB put their money where their mouth is, so to speak, vis a vis the legal tender claim assigned to these coins.

Hypothetical scenario:

You go to a restaurant and clock up a total bill (including service) of, say, £60. You promptly put 3 of these coins down for payment.

We know what will happen. The staff will not recognise/accept them. You insist and explain politely and show them the inscription, etc. Refusal to accept continues. You call for the manager and repeat explanation to him/her.

Said manager refuses to accept them. Threatens to call police. You accept his offer. Police arrive. You explain, a third time, to police and show them the coins.

At this point one of two things can happen.....

Police investigate and explain legal tender laws to manager and persuade him you have done nothing wrong, and that he should take them.

OR

Police insist I pay up in 'proper' money. I refuse. They arrest me. I then later sue police for, ultimately, what amounts to wrongful arrest due to their ignorance. After all if the police can't enforce the 'law' who can?

IF the former occurs then, gradually, loads of people will end up with these in their pockets.

Most will not hang on to them as, in the example of the restaurant manager, he will then take them the very next day to the bank to cash them in.

I wonder.......

Edited January 15, 2014 by anonguest

[Mrs Bear]

I wonder how far you'd get if you decided to make a point of principle about it.

Probably to the nearest bank, to change it for a £20 note.

Even getting shops to accept Scottish notes can be impossible.

Thanks OP for posting - I have ordered a couple as presents.

[Frank Hovis]

Probably to the nearest bank, to change it for a £20 note.

Even getting shops to accept Scottish notes can be impossible.

Thanks OP for posting - I have ordered a couple as presents.

Unless you're in or near Scotland you wouldn't know what they looked like; I don't.

[GinAndPlatonic]

Unless you're in or near Scotland you wouldn't know what they looked like; I don't.

They have a piece of elastic tied to one corner

[Mrs Bear]

They have a piece of elastic tied to one corner

[Hecto]

I recently received Royal Mint post about a 2014 Year of the horse coin.

Included was a leaflet on the £20 silver coin which said "For a limited period only we have increased the number of coins from three to ten per household - but only until 11 February 2014. After this date the restriction will revert to just three per household "

Also a free delivery code of D1460W for online orders of say 1 coin, but not telephone orders. Not sure if restricted to just £20 coin.

[GinAndPlatonic]

"For a limited period only we have increased the number of coins from three to ten per household - but only until 11 February 2014. After this date the restriction will revert to just three per household "

Also a free delivery code of D1460W for online orders of say 1 coin, but not telephone orders. Not sure if restricted to just £20 coin.

The Royal Mint are all bluff & bluster

[EMac]

Someone else tried to pay with these for their Tesco fuel and got nowhere initially (police called!) but Tesco have since relented and now say they will accept them. Make sure to take a copy of this article to show the uninformed cashier http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2594273/Tesco-staff-banned-customer-paying-bill-commemorative-20-coins-called-POLICE-didnt-cash.html

Personally I'd rather keep mine - better than numbers in a bank account or bits of paper.

[Old Nis]

Someone else tried to pay with these for their Tesco fuel and got nowhere initially (police called!) but Tesco have since relented and now say they will accept them. Make sure to take a copy of this article to show the uninformed cashier http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2594273/Tesco-staff-banned-customer-paying-bill-commemorative-20-coins-called-POLICE-didnt-cash.html

Reference my bold of the above; that was nice of them, wasn't it? They didn't actually have any choice. These coins are NOT commemorative, they are legal tender of Her Majesty's realm, no different to paying with the "proof" versions of a £1 coin.

[anonguest]

Someone else tried to pay with these for their Tesco fuel and got nowhere initially (police called!) but Tesco have since relented and now say they will accept them. Make sure to take a copy of this article to show the uninformed cashier http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2594273/Tesco-staff-banned-customer-paying-bill-commemorative-20-coins-called-POLICE-didnt-cash.html

Personally I'd rather keep mine - better than numbers in a bank account or bits of paper.

Relates to my earlier post - token gestures to getting silver coinage back into circulation.

Every little helps!

Edited April 3, 2014 by anonguest

[Old Nis]

I am afraid I must add a caveat to my previous remarks; although I would become very twitchy and irritable if anyone refused to accept these coins, an acquaintance on another forum (Bob, if you are reading this) has correctly pointed out that any sale is only an "offer to treat" and the seller can still refuse to sell an item at the price on the ticket to anyone.*

Therefore, although the seller cannot refuse the coins on the grounds that they are not legal tender (because they are), and the store was very stupid to call the police (although from the article this bloke was a known annoyance), the seller can nevertheless withdraw the item from sale to that (or any) buyer, thus achieving the same thing.

Of course the seller may decide to accept any form of payment at his discretion, so I am sure we will be seeing payments in Silver or Gold if the economy starts to approach the plughole. In this case, Yer Man had filled his tank rather than a trolley, so the issue was a little more difficult, which I am sure was his intention at the time.

* A famous legal precedent of this, was a woman who spotted a mis-priced mink coat in a shop window (in the days when people thought mink coats were a fashionable item!) and tried to insist on buying it at the absurdly low price. The argument went to Court as the difference in price was most considerable, and worth arguing about, and the Judge found against the lady, saying that it was only an "offer to treat". This is why mis-priced offers on the Internet can normally be withdrawn, although I am sure that other legal argument may also apply, and the publicity may make it worth taking the "hit". Bob was kind enough not to point this precedent out, and I should have remembered it myself.

[Sir Harold m]

Correct and incorrect. A price tag is an invitation to treat so I believe, the customer proffering the goods at the till constitutes the offer, the ringing up on the till is the acceptance.

If you think about it the store at some point MUST engage in a contract otherwise they could recall goods back at any time after you leave the store.

I think I'm correct in assuming that the offer and acceptance occur at the till and as such when you tender your cash as consideration then as long as it's legal the store can accept it as payment or the goods are yours for free.

Please don't take this as advice as I'm not qualified but I think this is the case from my distant study days ( unless it's changed)

[anonguest]

seems like a nice earner so soon after only the Mint just having stopped selling them.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2013-ROYAL-MINT-ST-GEORGE-AND-DRAGON-20-TWENTY-POUND-SILVER-COIN-PCGS-MS-69-/181266252492

Edited May 1, 2014 by anonguest

[sleepwello'nights]

seems like a nice earner so soon after only the Mint just having stopped selling them.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2013-ROYAL-MINT-ST-GEORGE-AND-DRAGON-20-TWENTY-POUND-SILVER-COIN-PCGS-MS-69-/181266252492

Are the 22 watchers prospective purchasers or are they interested to see if the coins they purchased from the mint can be sold at a nice profit?

[Old Nis]

Are the 22 watchers prospective purchasers or are they interested to see if the coins they purchased from the mint can be sold at a nice profit?

1) This is not quite the same as the coins we bought. This bloke has bought a load, then cherry-picked one coin that is near-as-dammit perfect, and then had it formally graded as a superior example of the breed. It is worth more than the basic price, but I don't think it's worth that much! Most of the coins I bought were very good indeed, so you could probably do the same.

2) Some sellers on eBay are offering basic bullion at hilarious prices. No idea why they're doing it, apart from selling to amateurs who don't know the market, like some of these "collectors'" companies that sell commemorative tat. There's one bullion seller who is offering a silver bullion bar that he's got from a bullion dealer and is trying to sell it at a 300% mark-up. The beauty of his "generous offer" is that the bar is new, so he only has to buy one if a sucker buyer actually buys one off him. He then nips over to dealer's website and gets one for an instant profit. The bar is beautiful - I recognised it instantly - but you don't need to pay over the odds, even for one bar.

3) I am a bit more ambivalent about the absurd premiums for very tiny bars and coins. I worked out that I was paying easily 100% over spot for the 1 gram coins that you can see on eBay, but the absolute price (as distinct from the bullion price per ounce) was so low, I wanted a few as playthings and gifts for children, when I wouldn't necessarily wish to give them a "proper" bullion coin until they were a bit older. They also make good silver inserts for fancy silver bracelets or suchlike, where the mark-up is enough to defray the cost of the parts.

[anonguest]

1) This is not quite the same as the coins we bought. This bloke has bought a load, then cherry-picked one coin that is near-as-dammit perfect, and then had it formally graded as a superior example of the breed. It is worth more than the basic price, but I don't think it's worth that much! Most of the coins I bought were very good indeed, so you could probably do the same.

2) Some sellers on eBay are offering basic bullion at hilarious prices. No idea why they're doing it, apart from selling to amateurs who don't know the market, like some of these "collectors'" companies that sell commemorative tat. There's one bullion seller who is offering a silver bullion bar that he's got from a bullion dealer and is trying to sell it at a 300% mark-up. The beauty of his "generous offer" is that the bar is new, so he only has to buy one if a sucker buyer actually buys one off him. He then nips over to dealer's website and gets one for an instant profit. The bar is beautiful - I recognised it instantly - but you don't need to pay over the odds, even for one bar.

3) I am a bit more ambivalent about the absurd premiums for very tiny bars and coins. I worked out that I was paying easily 100% over spot for the 1 gram coins that you can see on eBay, but the absolute price (as distinct from the bullion price per ounce) was so low, I wanted a few as playthings and gifts for children, when I wouldn't necessarily wish to give them a "proper" bullion coin until they were a bit older. They also make good silver inserts for fancy silver bracelets or suchlike, where the mark-up is enough to defray the cost of the parts.

That was my thought too. The quality of these recently issued £20 coins was very high. Maybe those I bought were the exception.

That said how does one go about getting such a coin 'formally graded' and then sealed as shown in the link? What cost is likely to be involved in doing that?

[Old Nis]

That was my thought too. The quality of these recently issued £20 coins was very high. Maybe those I bought were the exception.

That said how does one go about getting such a coin 'formally graded' and then sealed as shown in the link? What cost is likely to be involved in doing that?

£13.75 for this value of coin. Remember that the final Grade you get will depend on what they think it is, in other words, you can't submit heavily-worn coins and get a high value grading. The service only confirms two things (1) that it's genuine, and (2) that in their opinion, the Grade of coin matches the label. The Grade they give you can be very low, if you submit a rubbish example!

It's a way of trading coins of known quality. BEWARE of Chinese fake slabs. The slabbing prevents YOU from doing your own due diligence by weighing the coins and measuring them, etc. Fakes are very rare, but there are examples (particularly of the US version) and you should examine the slabbing very carefully (unless you have a known good example to compare with).

See the website: http://www.coingradingservices.co.uk/

[anonguest]

£13.75 for this value of coin. Remember that the final Grade you get will depend on what they think it is, in other words, you can't submit heavily-worn coins and get a high value grading. The service only confirms two things (1) that it's genuine, and (2) that in their opinion, the Grade of coin matches the label. The Grade they give you can be very low, if you submit a rubbish example!

It's a way of trading coins of known quality. BEWARE of Chinese fake slabs. The slabbing prevents YOU from doing your own due diligence by weighing the coins and measuring them, etc. Fakes are very rare, but there are examples (particularly of the US version) and you should examine the slabbing very carefully (unless you have a known good example to compare with).

See the website: http://www.coingradingservices.co.uk/

Thanks fo rthat info. very interesting.

I wonder, in fact, if a more cost effective way to realise some long term 'profit' might be to do nothing more than leave them unopened in their original Royal Mint packaging (assuming the plastic doesn't degrade, etc). Putting one up for sale in, say, 20 years might well command as much money as one that has gone through such a grading service?

[anonguest]

Thanks for that info. very interesting.

I wonder, in fact, if a more cost effective way to realise some long term 'profit' might be to do nothing more than leave them unopened in their original Royal Mint packaging (assuming the plastic doesn't degrade, etc). Putting one up for sale in, say, 20 years might well command as much money as one that has gone through such a grading service?

[Old Nis]

Thanks fo rthat info. very interesting.

I wonder, in fact, if a more cost effective way to realise some long term 'profit' might be to do nothing more than leave them unopened in their original Royal Mint packaging (assuming the plastic doesn't degrade, etc). Putting one up for sale in, say, 20 years might well command as much money as one that has gone through such a grading service?

Well, in theory, if the coin is of the same quality as a given slabbed one, then you'd get the same price. The slabbing just makes things simpler and supposedly more reliable. You get an agreed view of the quality of your coin.

I would have three points to make about that; the Silver content, by then, may have appreciated considerably, which of itself would take the value of the coin much higher. Then, there is the packaging. I am unsure if this would have much effect on the price, but most collectibles "require" all packaging, so I'd keep it if you are thinking of getting the maximum numismatic premium.

Finally, at a mintage of 250,000 I'm not sure it was ever intended as a purely commemorative coin, but as a bullion dealer remarked, it's a £20 coin. The Silver is free. It can't ever go below the value of £20 as it can be exchanged at a bank for a £20 note (not that anyone should be silly enough to do that).

The next one in the series is now open for pre-registration at:-

http://www.royalmint.com/pre-register/2014-20-pound-coin

if you are interested. I know that it's poor value for money as far as the Silver content goes, but you'll always get the higher of the Silver or numismatic value, and most commentators expect the price of Silver to accelerate in the next few years. If it doesn't, well, it's still a £20 coin.

[anonguest]

Well, in theory, if the coin is of the same quality as a given slabbed one, then you'd get the same price. The slabbing just makes things simpler and supposedly more reliable. You get an agreed view of the quality of your coin.

I would have three points to make about that; the Silver content, by then, may have appreciated considerably, which of itself would take the value of the coin much higher. Then, there is the packaging. I am unsure if this would have much effect on the price, but most collectibles "require" all packaging, so I'd keep it if you are thinking of getting the maximum numismatic premium.

Finally, at a mintage of 250,000 I'm not sure it was ever intended as a purely commemorative coin, but as a bullion dealer remarked, it's a £20 coin. The Silver is free. It can't ever go below the value of £20 as it can be exchanged at a bank for a £20 note (not that anyone should be silly enough to do that).

The next one in the series is now open for pre-registration at:-

http://www.royalmint.com/pre-register/2014-20-pound-coin

if you are interested. I know that it's poor value for money as far as the Silver content goes, but you'll always get the higher of the Silver or numismatic value, and most commentators expect the price of Silver to accelerate in the next few years. If it doesn't, well, it's still a £20 coin.

Agreed on all these points. I was, however, wondering specifically about the likelihood of enhancing any possible future sale price by keeping it in its original packaging. Whilst, as a commemorative and in fairly high mintage numbers, its likely almost all produced will still exist in 20 years time.....I wonder how many will still be in original unbroken packaging? I'll bet only a small fraction.

Am also aware another £20 coin is to be released. I note that it will be with a new design. Obviously for marketing reasons. Personally I would have preferred they kept the same. I believe mintage numbers will be lower this time? Perhaps they had a harder time than they thought they would selling the first one - certainly it did not sell out until well into the 2014 already!

[jonb]

Just ordered some of these - for gifts. They will be spent in shops probably. No shop can refuse it as it is legal tender.

Yes they can. For example a lot of shops will refuse £50 notes which are also legal tender. Legal tender means they can't refuse it as settlement of a debt, so for example a petrol station can't refuse it, because you have filled up your tank and you a required to pay for it. However if you take stuff to the till in a shop, you are not obliged to buy it, and the shop is not obliged to sell it, so there is no debt.

[200p]

Missed out on the first set?

New mintage http://www.royalmint.com/shop/Outbreak_2014_UK_20_Fine_Silver_Coin

[anonguest]

Missed out on the first set?

New mintage http://www.royalmint.com/shop/Outbreak_2014_UK_20_Fine_Silver_Coin

I note, with some interest, that the wording of the advert/description makes no explicit mention or big deal this time about it being 'Legal Tender'. It is only via a subtle link in the paragraph telling us not to spend it!

"It is an official United Kingdom coin, although it is too prestigious to spend. You will want to keep it somewhere safe or put it on display."

No doubt they probably had some hassle from too many people trying last year to actually spend these coins!?

[chronyx]

My 5 arrived today, ordered on Tuesday.

Wonder if the 5 per household limit will be ignored like the last limit? Tempted to whack another order in.