Working Mothers To Get Child Care Tax Break Worth Thousands Of Pounds

[geezer466]

You need to either get the nursery to invoice you (this is what I do, with a SO set up to pay them), or you need issue "vouchers" (or join a voucher scheme). In both cases I think you need to record which employee the childcare is being given to.

Up to age 15 I think.

Many thanks I will speak to my Accountant.

[olliegog]

I am confused and befuddled. And I get the feeling that the best way to sort out the tax/welfare system would be not to start from where we are at all.

when I was a single parent (one child) back in the seventies - I worked full time and paid tax. Out of my taxed income I paid a childminder - neighbour of mine who was flexible about hours/sick child etc. I received a slightly higher child benefit (one child only ) for being a single parent. There was no longer an allowance for children tax-wise as child benefit had come in by then.

To ease the difficulties of having to pay the costs of maintaining a family on one income I was given an additional personal allowance to bring it up to what was then the married man's allowance.

this was all very easy to understand and fair as it rewarded those single parents who went out to work and did not reward having 'loads of children' if you could not afford them.

now there are childcare payments, free childcare hours, child tax credits, child benefit (now means tested) - is this another layer on top?

[SHERWICK]

I am confused and befuddled. And I get the feeling that the best way to sort out the tax/welfare system would be not to start from where we are at all.

when I was a single parent (one child) back ini the seventies - I worked full time and paid tax. Out of my taxed income I paid a childminder - neighbour of mine who was flexible about hours/sick child etc. I received a slightly higher child benefit (one child only ) for being a single parent. There was no longer an allowance for children tax-wise as child benefit had come in by then.

To ease the difficulties of having to pay the costs of maintaining a family on one income I was given an additional personal allowance to bring it up to what was then the married man's allowance.

this was all very easy to understand and fair as it rewarded those single parents who went out to work and did not reward having 'loads of children' if you could not afford them.

now there are childcare payments, free childcare hours, child tax credits, child benefit (now means tested) - is this another layer on top?

I believe that this child care tax break will replace the child care vouchers. So, by doing this through the tax system it should mean less admin than the current voucher system?

[olliegog]

I believe that this child care tax break will replace the child care vouchers. So, by doing this through the tax system it should mean less admin than the current voucher system?

aah - deja vu then - makes a bit more sense

[shindigger]

Hello.

I'm a single,self employed bloke, with no kids.

Where do i sign up for something?

How about cheaper ******ing houses requiring 1 income to pay the mortgage?

Revolutionary.

Edited January 7, 2013 by shindigger

[ViciousChicken]

Hello.

I'm a single,self employed bloke, with no kids.

Where do i sign up for something?

How about cheaper ******ing houses requiring 1 income to pay the mortgage?

Revolutionary.

I take it you've checked you don't qualify for working tax credits, housing benefit, council tax benefit or DLA?

[shindigger]

I take it you've checked you don't qualify for working tax credits, housing benefit, council tax benefit or DLA?

Not a chance.

[the gardener]

Am I just being cynical or will this just mean nursery and childminder fees will go up?

[Gone baby gone]

Am I just being cynical or will this just mean nursery and childminder fees will go up?

Won't the magic of the market^TM mean that if one nursery puts up fees, the others will be able to grab custom by keeping theirs lower? Or are you suggesting that all ~100,000 UK nurseries are in a giant cartel... *

* = Actually, childcare provision appears to be one of the few areas of British life not dominated by a few brands and where there is genuine choice as multiple providers exist in all but the smallest towns.

[blackgoose]

Is there anything else you'd like to tell me that I'm thinking? What should I have for dinner perhaps?

It is implied clearly from your statement. But you have just avoided answering the point.

[the gardener]

Won't the magic of the market^TM mean that if one nursery puts up fees, the others will be able to grab custom by keeping theirs lower? Or are you suggesting that all ~100,000 UK nurseries are in a giant cartel... *

* = Actually, childcare provision appears to be one of the few areas of British life not dominated by a few brands and where there is genuine choice as multiple providers exist in all but the smallest towns.

Following a similar logic, won't the magic of the market^TM mean that Housing Benefit should have no effect on rents?

The fact is that this change will mean more money available for childcare whilst the supply of childcare remains static. Rates will go up.

Edited January 7, 2013 by the gardener

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

It is implied clearly from your statement. But you have just avoided answering the point.

No its not, try again.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Yes, I've already taken issue with it. I'm still not clear how this means that a dual income couple who both use their full tax allowance are already getting a tax break, though? Some are no doubt benefitting from existing tax breaks, but by no means all. Take the childcare vouchers. Not all such couples have childcare costs, and those who do use vouchers are not getting them simply by virtue of being dual earners. Working single parents are still able to claim them, for example. I'm not aware of any tax break that dual income, full tax allowance using couples are currently getting, simply by virtue of being in that category.

and i thought i was slow.

The state already encourages you to go out to work instead of raising your children because of individual tax allowances and the the child care voucher schemes is a tax break that assists those who use registered childcare. Typically this will be dual income parents AND they have twice the opportunity to exploit this.

And now I'm expected to be happy that another give away for these parents is to be handed out at my expense?

Families? What families?

[blackgoose]

No its not, try again.

Yes it is.

[Gone baby gone]

Following a similar logic, won't the magic of the market^TM mean that Housing Benefit should have no effect on rents?

The fact is that this change will mean more money available for childcare whilst the supply of childcare remains static. Rates will go up.

Why would the supply of childcare remain static? The supply of childcare varies according to demand:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/apr/23/nurseries-close-parents-costs-childcare

It's easier to set up a nursery or as a childminder vs building new rental property in areas where it is required. There also is a surplus of childcare in many areas, certainly is at the nurseries we've used. Sounds like you are too used to thinking of supply and demand in terms of houses... or gold!

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Yes it is.

How did I imply that couples should have tax allowances reduced to the equivalent of an individual between them?

[blackgoose]

How did I imply that couples should have tax allowances reduced to the equivalent of an individual between them?

Dual income parents already get a massive tax break. Its called 2 individual tax allowances instead of 1.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

nope

[Visitor]

OK, really dumb thought here. Suppose a couple of parents registered/trained as childminders - Could they look after each other's children as their job? They might even share premises

[ViciousChicken]

and i thought i was slow.

The state already encourages you to go out to work instead of raising your children because of individual tax allowances and the the child care voucher schemes is a tax break that assists those who use registered childcare. Typically this will be dual income parents AND they have twice the opportunity to exploit this.

And now I'm expected to be happy that another give away for these parents is to be handed out at my expense?

Families? What families?

You're moving the goalposts. The post of yours I initially replied to said that dual income parents are getting a tax break because of the two personal allowances. Which is rubbish. And even if one accepted that the existence of the personal allowance for each adult amounted to a tax break, as opposed to a legitimate right, parents have the same nil rate band as everyone else.

As for the voucher scheme, nothing you write in your post means dual income parents as a group are getting a tax break, either. Some are, some aren't. Some dual income couples with kids don't pay for childcare- their children are too old to need it, they get it free from family, they arrange their work (shifts, part time etc) so one of them is always available for childcare. And the fact of the matter is that the voucher system is used by many parents who are not dual earners using their whole nil rate tax band: single working parents, couples where one stays at home but uses some childcare so they can study or have a break or look after elderly relatives, parents who are dual earners but one of them doesn't earn enough to be a taxpayer. You should read more Mumsnet. If you'd said that dual income parents who use childcare vouchers are currently getting a tax break, I'd have agreed. You didn't, though. It is obviously up to you what you think of the current and the proposed arrangements, but that isn't what's being discussed.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

You're moving the goalposts. The post of yours I initially replied to said that dual income parents are getting a tax break because of the two personal allowances. Which is rubbish. And even if one accepted that the existence of the personal allowance for each adult amounted to a tax break, as opposed to a legitimate right, parents have the same nil rate band as everyone else.

As for the voucher scheme, nothing you write in your post means dual income parents as a group are getting a tax break, either. Some are, some aren't. Some dual income couples with kids don't pay for childcare- their children are too old to need it, they get it free from family, they arrange their work (shifts, part time etc) so one of them is always available for childcare. And the fact of the matter is that the voucher system is used by many parents who are not dual earners using their whole nil rate tax band: single working parents, couples where one stays at home but uses some childcare so they can study or have a break or look after elderly relatives, parents who are dual earners but one of them doesn't earn enough to be a taxpayer. You should read more Mumsnet. If you'd said that dual income parents who use childcare vouchers are currently getting a tax break, I'd have agreed. You didn't, though. It is obviously up to you what you think of the current and the proposed arrangements, but that isn't what's being discussed.

Its not moving the goalposts. The newspaper story in the OP is about giving families a further tax break to get back to work and I pointed out that families where both parents work already have a financial advantage in this respect.

As to the other bit, are you saying that its only a tax break if you use it? ****** me, you can't argue on an individual level, you need to look at the system. The tax breaks are there for workers, 2 workers = 2 tax breaks available, 1 worker = 1 tax break and chances are if you have a stay at home parent you don't need to use it but it still exists for that worker, like me. I can't deny that there is a tax break even if I don't use it. No one cares about shift work or grand parents or whether your employer offers it or not.

[workingatthepyramid]

I take it you've checked you don't qualify for working tax credits, housing benefit, council tax benefit or DLA?

HAHAHA

as a single bloke all he qualifies for is to pay for it all

[blackgoose]

nope

Yes. If you meant something different to what was written that is your fault.

Edited January 8, 2013 by blackgoose

[ViciousChicken]

Its not moving the goalposts. The newspaper story in the OP is about giving families a further tax break to get back to work and I pointed out that families where both parents work already have a financial advantage in this respect.

Yes, it is. You said that dual income couples with kids are already getting a tax break because of the two personal allowances in the post I replied to. That is incorrect. If you had said that some dual income couples who use vouchers are getting a tax break because of that, as you later did when you moved the goalposts, you'd have been right. but that is not what I initially took issue with. There is no getting round that fact. You confused two separate groups.

As to the other bit, are you saying that its only a tax break if you use it? ****** me, you can't argue on an individual level, you need to look at the system. The tax breaks are there for workers, 2 workers = 2 tax breaks available, 1 worker = 1 tax break and chances are if you have a stay at home parent you don't need to use it but it still exists for that worker, like me. I can't deny that there is a tax break even if I don't use it. No one cares about shift work or grand parents or whether your employer offers it or not.

The existence of a tax break and whether an individual benefits from it are two separate things, obviously. You confuse them. It is a nonsense to suggest that a person who is not getting a tax break actually is getting one, simply because they could have it if they wanted. A person who is eligible for the vouchers but does not claim them isn't taking anything out of the HMRC pot in that regard.

As for the shift work and grandparents, I think you'll find that the people who use that instead of paying for nursery care rather a lot. it is relevant because you made a broad sweeping generalisation that didn't stand up. Dual income parents [as a group/i] are not getting a tax break. Some of them are, not all, and some people who are not dual income parents are also getting the tax break. Those who are getting it are not getting it because of their dual incomes. The defining characteristic of those in the group is being a taxpaying parent.

HAHAHA

as a single bloke all he qualifies for is to pay for it all

Actually a single man could qualify for every single one of them. None of these are gender related- I don't think any benefits are except maternity allowance and possibly some pensioner/widow stuff, and none of these are marital status related either.