wherebee

Flyer For The Masses?

30 posts in this topic

Here's a challenge for you all. It should not be beyond the wit of us to draw up a simple, bullet point summary that we can pass to friends and relatives to try to bring a few more through the door of understanding just how bad HPI is and how the current generations are screwed compared to the 45-50+ generation.

so - can you give me 5-10 MAX bullet points, one sentence each that covers:

i) Why house price rises were a produce of slack credit, not wealth creation
ii) Why high house prices are bad for the UK, and do not benefit house owners
iii) Why grandparents and parents had it much easier in the 1960's-1980's re finding a place to live
iv) Why house prices may not crash in nominal currency but will (and have) crashed in real terms
v) Why governments should be held to account for failing the population for the past 30 years on this most important issue (maybe an example of a country where the gvt has done the right thing?)

Imagine if we can come up with a really tight, effective message. I am sure a number of us would flyer/circulate/poster. All to often we are accused of being a giant HPC circle-w$nk, so why not try to actually educate the masses....

And the reason I am posting this now is a mate has his father questioning why he really doesn't have any money left each month after servicing mortgage, car, bills, etc, even though he is on a fair wage in the south east. He didn't splurge, but the cost of buying a small house near a half decent school has crippled his family finances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='wherebee' timestamp='1334501055' post='909014206']
Here's a challenge for you all. It should not be beyond the wit of us to draw up a simple, bullet point summary that we can pass to friends and relatives to try to bring a few more through the door of understanding just how bad HPI is and how the current generations are screwed compared to the 45-50+ generation.

so - can you give me 5-10 MAX bullet points, one sentence each that covers:

i) Why house price rises were a produce of slack credit, not wealth creation
ii) Why high house prices are bad for the UK, and do not benefit house owners
iii) Why grandparents and parents had it much easier in the 1960's-1980's re finding a place to live
iv) Why house prices may not crash in nominal currency but will (and have) crashed in real terms
v) Why governments should be held to account for failing the population for the past 30 years on this most important issue (maybe an example of a country where the gvt has done the right thing?)

Imagine if we can come up with a really tight, effective message. I am sure a number of us would flyer/circulate/poster. All to often we are accused of being a giant HPC circle-w$nk, so why not try to actually educate the masses....

And the reason I am posting this now is a mate has his father questioning why he really doesn't have any money left each month after servicing mortgage, car, bills, etc, even though he is on a fair wage in the south east. He didn't splurge, but the cost of buying a small house near a half decent school has crippled his family finances.
[/quote]

Nothing hits home like real numbers. Nebulous arguments are usually met with nebulous reponses.

If your mate wants his Dad to see the light he can always produce a spreadsheet with the outgoings and income.

Of course his Dad may then well ask why he spends £50 a month on Sky telly, loads on mobile phone subscriptions, a hefty weekly shopping bill etc.

I am not totally convinced grandparents did have it easier. They just had less things to spend the money on. Back in the day there were no mobile phones (in fact we didn't even get a landline till I was 4), no sky telly, no eating out once a month (in fact food was pretty shocking), lots of people didn't even have cars (if you beleive that), let alone 2 per family.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Gigantic Purple Slug' timestamp='1334502354' post='909014214']
Nothing hits home like real numbers. Nebulous arguments are usually met with nebulous reponses.


I am not totally convinced grandparents did have it easier. They just had less things to spend the money on. Back in the day there were no mobile phones (in fact we didn't even get a landline till I was 4), no sky telly, no eating out once a month (in fact food was pretty shocking), lots of people didn't even have cars (if you beleive that), let alone 2 per family.
[/quote]

Yes, Mr Slug! I remember it! :blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Gigantic Purple Slug' timestamp='1334502354' post='909014214']
Nothing hits home like real numbers. Nebulous arguments are usually met with nebulous reponses.

If your mate wants his Dad to see the light he can always produce a spreadsheet with the outgoings and income.

Of course his Dad may then well ask why he spends £50 a month on Sky telly, loads on mobile phone subscriptions, a hefty weekly shopping bill etc.

I am not totally convinced grandparents did have it easier. They just had less things to spend the money on. Back in the day there were no mobile phones (in fact we didn't even get a landline till I was 4), no sky telly, no eating out once a month (in fact food was pretty shocking), lots of people didn't even have cars (if you beleive that), let alone 2 per family.
[/quote]

Good points. Car one is a bit more complicated as shops were distributed locally to account for low car ownership as opposed to the centralised model now that pushes transportation costs onto the shopper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fashion is another one.

In general designer gear was not accessible to the masses until about 1980 IIRC. Foreign holidays were also a lot less common.

In general you left school, got a job then got married. When you got married you got a house with your wife and had kids. Then the going out stopped, and all the money went on bills.

I remember as a kid my Dad giving up smoking because it was too expensive. Two bottles of Nukey Brown a week was his luxury.

A lot of boomers may be having it easy now, but that doesn't mean they didn't have some tough times in the past.

I guess the biggest difference though is the level of distraction. These days you are bombarded with adverts for stuff and there are multiple different things you can spend your money on. Eating out, AV gear, computer games, fashion, holidays, cars. Back in the 70s there was much less to distract you, and peoples expectations were less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Gigantic Purple Slug' timestamp='1334503353' post='909014223']
Fashion is another one.

In general designer gear was not accessible to the masses until about 1980 IIRC. Foreign holidays were also a lot less common.

In general you left school, got a job then got married. When you got married you got a house with your wife and had kids. Then the going out stopped, and all the money went on bills.

I remember as a kid my Dad giving up smoking because it was too expensive. Two bottles of Nukey Brown a week was his luxury.

A lot of boomers may be having it easy now, but that doesn't mean they didn't have some tough times in the past.

I guess the biggest difference though is the level of distraction. These days you are bombarded with adverts for stuff and there are multiple different things you can spend your money on. Eating out, AV gear, computer games, fashion, holidays, cars. Back in the 70s there was much less to distract you, and peoples expectations were less.
[/quote]

I can agree that all this has changed. However I have kids, don't go out, spend next to nothing and earn multiples of the average wage. I can report from this extensive case study that it makes no difference compared to house prices increasing from the base 100 to 350 in my area (which is not a "bling" area).

The "you've got ipads now" argument does not, in my experience, hold water. Edited by bmf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='bmf' timestamp='1334503862' post='909014229']
I can agree that all this has changed. However I have kids, don't go out, spend next to nothing and earn multiples of the average wage. I can report from this extensive case study that it makes no difference compared to house prices increasing from the base 100 to 350 in my area (which is not a "bling" area).

The "you've got ipads now" argument does not, in my experience, hold water.
[/quote]

I think you are right, it cannot explain the entire situation.

But as I said early, nebulous arguments produce nebulous responses. If I went to my Dad and said, you don't know how easy you had it back in the day, I'd probably get a mouthful, and probably quite rightly so given the sacrifices he made to bring up his children.

Ultimately you'll have a hard time convincing most boomers that "they had it easy and it's much more difficult now", in the same way you'd probably have dificulty convincing anyone under the age of 30 that a mobile phone isn't "essential".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Gigantic Purple Slug' timestamp='1334504600' post='909014240']
I think you are right, it cannot explain the entire situation.

But as I said early, nebulous arguments produce nebulous responses. If I went to my Dad and said, you don't know how easy you had it back in the day, I'd probably get a mouthful, and probably quite rightly so given the sacrifices he made to bring up his children.

Ultimately you'll have a hard time convincing most boomers that "they had it easy and it's much more difficult now", in the same way you'd probably have dificulty convincing anyone under the age of 30 that a mobile phone isn't "essential".
[/quote]

I think you are stereotyping young people here. I bet if you spoke to many people aged 20 to 30 you could have a very reasonable conversation with them about why mobiles are not essential. I think if you offered any of these people the chance to have a home or a world where a mobile is common 100% would say the former.

There's no justifying the gap. Edited by bmf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes there was a very scary flyer created in 2005, if you go through my historic posts you will bump into it as I remember commenting on that thread. Edited by AteMoose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='AteMoose' timestamp='1334505465' post='909014249']
Yes there was a very scary flyer created in 2005.
[/quote]

Did it say the world was going to run out of oil and we should start stockpiling guns, gold and beans immediately ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Gigantic Purple Slug' timestamp='1334505556' post='909014251']
Did it say the world was going to run out of oil and we should start stockpiling guns, gold and beans immediately ?
[/quote]
No it had the hpi chart on the right and side and two colums of text. It told people to sell now to avoid the crash, and gave a warning to FTBers. It laid out the history, and I think it might have explained the credit crunch? Decade of crashing prices, poverty etc etc... Edited by AteMoose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='wherebee' timestamp='1334501055' post='909014206']
Here's a challenge for you all. It should not be beyond the wit of us to draw up a simple, bullet point summary that we can pass to friends and relatives to try to bring a few more through the door of understanding just how bad HPI is and how the current generations are screwed compared to the 45-50+ generation.

so - can you give me 5-10 MAX bullet points, one sentence each that covers:

i) Why house price rises were a produce of slack credit, not wealth creation
ii) Why high house prices are bad for the UK, and do not benefit house owners
iii) Why grandparents and parents had it much easier in the 1960's-1980's re finding a place to live
iv) Why house prices may not crash in nominal currency but will (and have) crashed in real terms
v) Why governments should be held to account for failing the population for the past 30 years on this most important issue (maybe an example of a country where the gvt has done the right thing?)

Imagine if we can come up with a really tight, effective message. I am sure a number of us would flyer/circulate/poster. All to often we are accused of being a giant HPC circle-w$nk, so why not try to actually educate the masses....

And the reason I am posting this now is a mate has his father questioning why he really doesn't have any money left each month after servicing mortgage, car, bills, etc, even though he is on a fair wage in the south east. He didn't splurge, but the cost of buying a small house near a half decent school has crippled his family finances.
[/quote]

I thought of a nice way to explain this.

You have 1,000 First class stamps because you need to post a thousand letters

The next day somebody tells you that stamps have gone up in price to 60p.

You look at your £600 of stamps which you bought for only £460 and start imagining what you'll spend the free money on.

You agree to sell your stamps to someone in the nearest town. You drive over, costing you £5 of petrol and they give you the £600. You drive to your bank, costing another £5 in petrol, and hand to hand in the money and the teller tells you that one of the £20 notes is a fake. After petrol and the fake you have £570. Not bad, £110 up.

Then you remember that you have to buy the stamps, so walk go to the Post Office and had over the money and the teller gives you 950 stamps. You post the letters that are going to other towns and spend the rest of the day delivering letters.

Houses are like the stamps. You needed to post the letters, so you need stamps. You need somewhere to live, so you need a house. House price inflation doesn't help you if you are still going to need a house because everyone else's house is inflating too.

All that should matter to you is how house price inflation compares to and your wage inflation. If house prices increase faster than your wages it's a bad thing because it will take you longer to save up enough to get a bigger, better house in a nicer place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='wherebee' timestamp='1334501055' post='909014206']

Imagine if we can come up with a really tight, effective message. I am sure a number of us would flyer/circulate/poster. All to often we are accused of being a giant HPC circle-w$nk, so why not try to actually educate the masses....
[/quote]

I think if your message is effective you'll end up in a bag, you inside, in a bath

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Basically our broken mortgage market has told people that their houses are worth a lot, it just forgot to tell them that it's now going to be 30 years, (or whatever), not 10 years, before the person in the house they want to trade down to will be able save up enough to afford the house they want to sell.

Hope that helps.

If that fails beat them with a plank on which you've written f(x)=exp(x)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Adapt this to read "Nuclear finance? No thanks!"

[img]http://www.veggies.org.uk/img/nuclearpowernothanx223.gif[/img] Edited by nmarks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You need to look at campaign slogans and literature used by existing campaign groups.

You could look at adapting old public information films.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=public+information+films&tbm=isch&pbx=1&aq=2&oq=public%2520inf&aqi=g6-k10d0t0&fkt=2625&fsdt=13329&cqt=&rst=&htf=&his=&maction=&site=images&gl=uk&client=safari&source=mog&hl=en-GB&csll=&action=&ltoken=0157c0ef&biw=320&bih=416&sei=7j6LT-mVOuTC0QWzxcW5CQ#p=0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What is anyone going to do in response to knowing this?

Anyone that already owns won't care or won't believe it, they worked hard and they deserve it and you should all stop buying ipods.

Anyone that doesn't own will already know it and also won't be able to do anything about it either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='ChairmanOfTheBored' timestamp='1334511261' post='909014302']
I thought of a nice way to explain this.

You have 1,000 First class stamps because you need to post a thousand letters

The next day somebody tells you that stamps have gone up in price to 60p.

You look at your £600 of stamps which you bought for only £460 and start imagining what you'll spend the free money on.

You agree to sell your stamps to someone in the nearest town. You drive over, costing you £5 of petrol and they give you the £600. You drive to your bank, costing another £5 in petrol, and hand to hand in the money and the teller tells you that one of the £20 notes is a fake. After petrol and the fake you have £570. Not bad, £110 up.

Then you remember that you have to buy the stamps, so walk go to the Post Office and had over the money and the teller gives you 950 stamps. You post the letters that are going to other towns and spend the rest of the day delivering letters.

Houses are like the stamps. You needed to post the letters, so you need stamps. You need somewhere to live, so you need a house. House price inflation doesn't help you if you are still going to need a house because everyone else's house is inflating too.

All that should matter to you is how house price inflation compares to and your wage inflation. If house prices increase faster than your wages it's a bad thing because it will take you longer to save up enough to get a bigger, better house in a nicer place.
[/quote]

That is the owner-occupier case. If you only needed to post 100 letters, but bought 1000 stamps (i.e. BTL), then you would be quids in.

A lot of people think that, and in the stamp example they are of course correct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Gigantic Purple Slug' timestamp='1334504600' post='909014240']
I think you are right, it cannot explain the entire situation.

But as I said early, nebulous arguments produce nebulous responses. If I went to my Dad and said, you don't know how easy you had it back in the day, I'd probably get a mouthful, and probably quite rightly so given the sacrifices he made to bring up his children.

Ultimately you'll have a hard time convincing most boomers that "they had it easy and it's much more difficult now", in the same way you'd probably have dificulty convincing anyone under the age of 30 that a mobile phone isn't "essential".
[/quote]


I do find myself agreeing with you......life then for parents was not all a bed of roses, they may have been able to buy a small family home or rent with a protected tenancy having the rent tribunal to protect them from high landlord rent increases or secure a council home....but they didn't have all the add ons and choices we have today, there was still no money left at the end of the week and nowhere you could go except to family if you required more....people then lived within their means. ;)


Edit it add:....anyone that bought a home 30 to 40 years ago did it to put a roof over their heads, they had no idea that they would increase as much as they did, total madness imo....has it made them richer?...no because we all require a home and everything else has gone up as well, so what they have made they will spend again when they move plus costs.......downsizing may leave them with something in their pocket enough for them to help their kids out maybe or a bit to help them live out their retirement or pay the care home fees. Edited by winkie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='wherebee' timestamp='1334501055' post='909014206']
Here's a challenge for you all. It should not be beyond the wit of us to draw up a simple, bullet point summary that we can pass to friends and relatives to try to bring a few more through the door of understanding just how bad HPI is and how the current generations are screwed compared to the 45-50+ generation.

so - can you give me 5-10 MAX bullet points, one sentence each that covers:

i) Why house price rises were a produce of slack credit, not wealth creation
ii) Why high house prices are bad for the UK, and do not benefit house owners
iii) Why grandparents and parents had it much easier in the 1960's-1980's re finding a place to live
iv) Why house prices may not crash in nominal currency but will (and have) crashed in real terms
v) Why governments should be held to account for failing the population for the past 30 years on this most important issue (maybe an example of a country where the gvt has done the right thing?)

Imagine if we can come up with a really tight, effective message. I am sure a number of us would flyer/circulate/poster. All to often we are accused of being a giant HPC circle-w$nk, so why not try to actually educate the masses....

And the reason I am posting this now is a mate has his father questioning why he really doesn't have any money left each month after servicing mortgage, car, bills, etc, even though he is on a fair wage in the south east. He didn't splurge, but the cost of buying a small house near a half decent school has crippled his family finances.
[/quote]

Presumably your flyer would be aimed at someone of my age group (born 1950's)?

I think my age group falls into two camps. One a group that has embraced consumer culture and the changes to the British economy that have occurred in the last 30 years and a second group who always believed that those same changes would end in where we are now.

The first group would probably be of the mind that HPI is a good thing and makes the country richer and that young people should stop whingeing and get off there backsides or 'on their bikes'. The second group would be of a similar opinion to me. That HPI is and was a bad thing for the UK, has priced out a generation from hous purchase giving them little or no stake in society and takes up too much of the nations resources but are pi55ed off with being blamed for the actions of government and bankers.

Getting through to the first group could would be nigh on impossible because most of them are sitting on the benefits of an ideology they have embraced for most of their lives, re enforcing their beleifs, so 'why should they change'. As for the second group, you will be preaching to the converted but most would probably tell you they are sha99ed out from 30 years of banging their heads against a culture that has been dominated by the thinking of the other group, the UK media and a system that rewards and respects superficiality over substance.

Good luck anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Democorruptcy' timestamp='1334564970' post='909014629']
Average house £60k = mortgage £386. Average house £160k = mortgage £1,030. Average banker = very happy.
[/quote]


When the debt is paid in full after ~25 years.......you are then ~£1030 better off per month...better than an income from a BTL.....that means you can downsize your job if you so wish to give it to someone who needs it more than you, you also then have more choices, you are more flexible to live and do things differently....a whole new world opens up......you only get out of it what you put into it. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now