thecrashingisles

It's Not Our Job To Help Savers, Says Bank Of England

64 posts in this topic

[quote name='ChairmanOfTheBored' timestamp='1334338027' post='909013139']


I guess the question is which savers - it wasn't UK savers who did this to the mortgage market:

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KNy728QV36w/T4hgUqSXjiI/AAAAAAAAAc4/YBWOLHBCJ2w/s1600/funding%2Bfsa%2B2009.png[/img]

The banks and the specialist lenders were funded by the hot money, that's why the banks are zombies and the specialist lenders are gone.
[/quote]

Herding the money - these "banks" were writing tuff they would never touch themselves or hold on their own books, they packaged it up and dumped it on those reliant in interest bearing investments that would, match or even keep some semblance of value against the inflation backdrop. They needed insurance companies, pensions, councils, state pension funds in the US to buy it. Enter stage rigght the central banks - in particualr George, King, Greenspan and Bernanke - they drove rates down and pushed the market into the hands of the banksters.

They absolutely 100% are one of the prime causes of this mess and the disgusting slope shouldered creatures are still there preening themselves and poncing off the rest of us. Edited by OnlyMe

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The current remit is still 2% cpi. In the remit they say the +/- 1% threshold does not define a target range but the points at which a letter is required as inflation is "appreciably" away from its target.

During his budgey speech last March Osborne confirmed that the remit still stands and it still says [i][b]"the inflation target is 2% at [size="4"][i][b]all[/b][/i][/size] times: that is the rate which the MPC is required to achieve and for which it is accountable."[/b][/i]

Additionally in the BoE/government exchanges they mention things like the "objective of strong, sustainable and balanced growth that is more evenly shared across the country and between industries" - although sometimes that's worded differently e.g. "to achieve high and stable levels of growth and employment by raising the sustainable growth rate and creating economic and employment opportunities for all".

Those general objectives are"subject to" the inflation target of 2%.

From the remit

[i][b]"..the objectives of the BoE shall be:

a ) to maintain price stability and

b ) [size="3"] subject to that[/size] to support the economic growth policies of HM's government, including its objectives for growth and employment.
[/b][/i]
At the start of 2010 when inflation was nearly 4% the BoE stated the excess inflation was temporary ("cpi will fall back to 2% by the end of the year"). 2 years later it's still well in excess. Temporary is allowed within the remit but the word "temporary" has been stretched well beyond its meaning.

Basically they've failed on all counts. The target has been exceeded for most of the last 5 years. The job should be given to some body that will take the remit seriously for the long term and not just short term expediency. It's also time they had a new more realistic remit as they clearly aren't working to the current target at [size="4"][i][b]all[/b][/i][/size] times. Edited by billybong

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[quote name='Gigantic Purple Slug' timestamp='1334335071' post='909013114']
AFAIKT they have an over-riding remit to manage the base rate in what they view as the best interests of the economy.

Their job is not to solely control inflation.

It it was, you would not need an MPC, but a computer, which ramps the base rate up and down depending on the current rate of inflation *

EDIT : Probably something like a PID controller.
[/quote]


No. Unlike the USA, they BoE has no direct remit for the economy whatsoever. It does have a dual remit though: 'monetary and financial stability'.

The first of these remits used to drive their policy. Now it has been overwhelmed by the second.

And yes, of course the 'economy' affects both of these.

I also believe that 'secrecy' forms a part of meeting those overriiding objectives on the basis that 'confidence' is key. So we will never find out.



EDIT: This better describes the BoE's purpose. The remit earlier is the Monetary Policy Committee and it is clear that the Bank only agreed to the price target whilst Gordo was trying to push support for economic growth...the weasil get out phrase being 'subject to that'. They don't say what they can do to support growth if all their efforts are on meeting the priority of the inflation target.

Having said that, it is clear that Financial Stability has driven ALL their decisions for the last few years.


[url="http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/about/Pages/corepurposes/default.aspx"]http://www.bankofeng...es/default.aspx[/url] Edited by hotairmail

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[quote name='hotairmail' timestamp='1334339017' post='909013154']
No. Unlike the USA, they BoE has no direct remit for the economy whatsoever. It does have a dual remit though: 'monetary and financial stability'.

The first of these remits used to drive their policy. Now it has been overwhelmed by the second.

And yes, of course the 'economy' affects both of these.

I also believe that 'secrecy' forms a part of meeting those overriiding objectives on the basis that 'confidence' is key. So we will never find out.



EDIT: This better describes the BoE's purpose. The remit earlier is the Monetary Policy Committee and it is clear that the Bank only agreed to the price target whilst Gordo was trying to push support for economic growth...the weasil get out phrase being 'subject to that'. They don't say what they can do to support growth if all their efforts are on meeting the priority of the inflation target.

Having said that, it is clear that Financial Stability has driven ALL their decisions for the last few years.


[url="http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/about/Pages/corepurposes/default.aspx"]http://www.bankofeng...es/default.aspx[/url]
[/quote]

I find it extremely hard to determine from the remit what the actual remit is.

Ultimately though the issue is that the remit exists, and is issued to the BOE by the government.

If the government is unhappy with the way the BOE acts or interprets the remit, I assume it has the power to intervene as the ultimate authority. The fact that it doesn't tells you all you need to know.

It's not hard to see through the smoke and mirrors on this one.

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[quote name='scepticus' timestamp='1334332126' post='909013069']
The only way that could be delivered, was to allow a multi decade credit expansion. And now, people want more of the same!

Sorry, can't be done. There is no way the bank could achieve it, even if it wanted to.



Yes, looking at asia and the EMs in general, you'll see a pattern of negative real rates over much the same period I was talking about above.

Rebalancing?

That means doing a swap, we get negative real rates, some jobs back and affordable domestic investment, they get positive real rates and give up some jobs and get to buy more tat. That's what rebalancing has to mean.

You do want rebalancing don't you?
[/quote]

How come the OBR is predicting an extra £500bn household debt in this parliament then?

Not that "rebalancing" rubbish again. There is no plan to rebalance. If there were the low interest rates would be passed onto businesses instead of them being bled dry by banks. The banks are even trousering money via interest rate swaps. The word "rebalancing" in the UK means "banks stealing to keep their bonuses flowing"

We cannot rebalance if we do not have lower living costs (mainly housing) and input costs. You need cheap raw materials and labour to make things.

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[quote name='scrappycocco' timestamp='1334339169' post='909013155']
seriously needs to be a world wide register of these scum and someones law against them......
[/quote]
It would be funny if such a list existed.

The Scumbag Register though I'm sure others could come up with a more descriptive name, just don't call them a c#!t.

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Surely the "job" of the BoE is to "help themselves"? :lol: :huh:

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[quote name='MrPin' timestamp='1334343130' post='909013208']
Surely the "job" of the BoE is to "help themselves"? :lol: :huh:
[/quote]

Being on the MPC is a path to riches.

Lucrative consultancies with banks and house builders.

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[quote name='Democorruptcy' timestamp='1334342616' post='909013196']
How come the OBR is predicting an extra £500bn household debt in this parliament then?

Not that "rebalancing" rubbish again. There is no plan to rebalance. If there were the low interest rates would be passed onto businesses instead of them being bled dry by banks. The banks are even trousering money via interest rate swaps. The word "rebalancing" in the UK means "banks stealing to keep their bonuses flowing"

We cannot rebalance if we do not have lower living costs (mainly housing) and input costs. You need cheap raw materials and labour to make things.
[/quote]

Funny you should say that. I noted a change in the annual Monetary Policy Committee remit letters from Gordo's time....third para

I think there is an honest 'intent' - just that they don't know how to do it...certainly their other dearly held beliefs stop them from doing so.


[url="http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetarypolicy/Documents/pdf/chancellorletter110323.pdf"]http://www.bankofeng...etter110323.pdf[/url]


[img]http://oi39.tinypic.com/ogkjm1.jpg[/img] Edited by hotairmail

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[quote name='hotairmail' timestamp='1334343462' post='909013219']
Funny you should say that. I noted a change in the annual Monetary Policy Committee remit letters from Gordo's time....third para

I think there is an honest 'intent' - just that they don't know how to do it...certainly their other dearly held beliefs stop them from doing so.


[url="http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetarypolicy/Documents/pdf/chancellorletter110323.pdf"]http://www.bankofeng...etter110323.pdf[/url]


[img]http://oi39.tinypic.com/ogkjm1.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

"sustainable and balanced growth that is more evenly shared across the country and industries"!!

Nothing could be further away than what they are doing. Everyone in the UK is facing higher living costs to keep London property prices high.

Industries?

Index of production for manufacturing was 100.5 in Q2 2007, 92.1 in Q2 2011.
Output index for business services & finance was 105.0 in Q2 2007, 104.7 in Q2 2011.

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[quote name='Gigantic Purple Slug' timestamp='1334336391' post='909013123']
I notice the NIRP warning siren hasn't been sounding recently.

Why's that do you think ?
[/quote]

The swiss two-year note went negative day before yesterday I think , quite a bit negative. Two year note!

I couldn't be bothered to update the nirp thread. I'm looking for a bigger event for future updates.

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[quote name='scepticus' timestamp='1334329724' post='909013032']
For most of the period since the 70s, real interest rates have been very reliably positive:

[img]http://labspace.open.ac.uk/file.php/4310/DB123_1_002i.jpg[/img]

Going back further into the 20th century, you do see a sustained period of negative real interest rates during and after the war. Further back than that back into gold standard days in the 19th century, you see a lot of volatility with large swings in the real interest rate, positive and negative.

So in recent times, relative to the very long run average, savers have been very consistently favoured with an unprecedented period in which positive real rates have persisted.

So given that borrowers have been systematically punished relative to savers for 4 decades, the save our savers meme looks distinctly selfish, and myopic.

Also consider that perhaps the long period of saver-favouritism and relatively high real rates, [s]may well be[/s] is a primary reason for the excessive levels of indebtedness we now face.
[/quote]

You are ignoring decades of an ever growing welfare state which is in the process of bankrupting every government in the West.

If you pay the majority of the population to do nothing, then government debt will rise until governments are forced to default

It has f*ck all to do with banking, interest rates or savers

these are just symptoms of the disease - not the disease itself.

And in case you hadn't noticed - real interest rates are continuing to rise.

:blink:

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[quote name='scepticus' timestamp='1334345751' post='909013255']
The swiss two-year note went negative day before yesterday I think , quite a bit negative. Two year note!

I couldn't be bothered to update the nirp thread. I'm looking for a bigger event for future updates.
[/quote]

So you think that the Swiss economy is representative then!!!!!!!

Let me know when Spain's two year notes go negative

:blink:

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[quote name='winkie' timestamp='1334329016' post='909013024']
Savers have a choice, they don't have to save with the Bank of England....there is the rest of the world don't they know. ;)
[/quote]

Exactly.

I have always been a rate tart and my cash savings had to come out a few years back when the BoE really started taking the slash.

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[quote name='TheCountOfNowhere' timestamp='1334334110' post='909013100']
Their job is to control inflation.

Thery are refusing to do that.

Their interest rate setting powers should be removed.

No one has every voted for these people and they are crippling most of the country....but than bankers are ok.

Funny that,...no bias whatsoever, its all in the aid of the economy.

Will one MP not stand up and fight for the other 99.99999999999% of the country ?
[/quote]

They are transferring wealth from creditors to debtors

the banks are just middle men who are taking a cut on the transaction

But the banks are not being given money

debtors are

And the government is the biggest debtor of all

:blink:

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[quote name='Game_Over' timestamp='1334346258' post='909013264']
You are ignoring decades of an ever growing welfare state which is in the process of bankrupting every government in the West.

[b]If you pay the majority of the population to do nothing, then government debt will rise until governments are forced to default [/b]

:blink:
[/quote]

I watched last week the last episode of BBC 2's The Tube documentary and there was a foreign worker, maybe Polish, working nights down on the Underground in a tunnel cleaning gang and he could not understand how the UK could pay people to do nothing, it just did not make sense to him. Edited by Take Me Back To London!

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[quote name='scepticus' timestamp='1334345751' post='909013255']
The swiss two-year note went negative day before yesterday I think , quite a bit negative. Two year note!

I couldn't be bothered to update the nirp thread. I'm looking for a bigger event for future updates.
[/quote]

I guess I was wondering whether you saw recent policy as responsible for delaying what you see as inevitable.

I beleive the timescale for negative rates (if we get them at all) has been extended.

Edit : I suppose a negative swiss 2 year note is a fair enough response to this belief. Edited by Gigantic Purple Slug

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[quote]We can't do it for the interests of one particular group rather than another.[/quote]
Oh really?

[img]http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2011/Aug/Week2/16049948.jpg[/img]


[quote]It's Not Our Job To Help Savers[/quote]
But it seems that it's the saver's job to help the BoE out of a jam.

[url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/savings/8028884/Savers-told-to-stop-moaning-and-start-spending.html"]Savers told to stop moaning and start spending[/url]

Advice from Merv's deputy Charlie Bean.

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[quote name='scepticus' timestamp='1334329724' post='909013032']
For most of the period since the 70s, real interest rates have been very reliably positive:
...

So in recent times, relative to the very long run average, savers have been very consistently favoured with an unprecedented period in which positive real rates have persisted.

So given that borrowers have been systematically punished relative to savers for 4 decades, the save our savers meme looks distinctly selfish, and myopic.

Also consider that perhaps the long period of saver-favouritism and relatively high real rates, [s]may well be[/s] is a primary reason for the excessive levels of indebtedness we now face.
[/quote]


The winning strategy in the last decade was leveraged speculation. The rewards to borrowers were spectacular.

Moreover, as has been pointed out before, the 'real' interest rate has been negative for years. In 2000 100k would have bought you a house.

Imagine that - a whole house.

How do you reconcile this?

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[quote name='(Blizzard)' timestamp='1334349343' post='909013318']
The winning strategy in the last decade was leveraged speculation. The rewards to borrowers were spectacular.

Moreover, as has been pointed out before, the 'real' interest rate has been negative for years. In 2000 100k would have bought you a house.

Imagine that - a whole house.

[/quote]

Firstly, in 2000 interest rates were not zero and mortgage rates were not 3%. More expensive house, lower payments.

The reason that leveraged speculation has been a winner is that asset prices have until now been un-naturally suppressed. Therefore the fact that betting on rising assets prices has been a good strategy is hardly surprising.

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[quote name=''Bart'' timestamp='1334348911' post='909013309']
Oh really?

[img]http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2011/Aug/Week2/16049948.jpg[/img]



But it seems that it's the saver's job to help the BoE out of a jam.

[url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/savings/8028884/Savers-told-to-stop-moaning-and-start-spending.html"]Savers told to stop moaning and start spending[/url]

Advice from Merv's deputy Charlie Bean.
[/quote]

Freaking hell, the newspaper costs only 10pence and yet it guarantees a free loaf of bread, which is £1.50 - £2.50 now in the supermarkets. I'm going to become rich! I'm going to buy as many Expresses as is possible, then bread, then profit!!!!!

P.s. Tell me this is tomorrow's Express.

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[quote name='jammo' timestamp='1334351531' post='909013346']
Freaking hell, the newspaper costs only 10pence and yet it guarantees a free loaf of bread, which is £1.50 - £2.50 now in the supermarkets. I'm going to become rich! I'm going to buy as many Expresses as is possible, then bread, then profit!!!!!

P.s. Tell me this is tomorrow's Express.
[/quote]
Jammo I'm not sure what supermarkets you go to, but bread is £1.25-ish for a Warburtons. Though those prices are not too far off as the BoE doesn't battle inflation.

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