Sour Mash

Everyone Is Guilty - Welcome To Total Surveillance

114 posts in this topic

If this goes through without a fight, then the sheep deserve to be farmed for all they are worth:

BBC

A new law - which may be announced in the Queen's Speech in May - would not allow GCHQ to access the content of emails, calls or messages without a warrant.

All to 'protect' us of course ... Jeez, how do they think they can get away with pedalling that tired old line any longer?

Don't expect much in the way of public protest of course - most of our braindead sheep will be too busy worrying about which celeb is shagging which other celeb, the plots of their favourite soap operas or the vagaries of 'reality' TV.

Good old 'democracy' means that those of us with half a brain who consider freedom and privacy worth having will lose our liberties along with the idiots who blindly accept this.

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If this goes through without a fight, then the sheep deserve to be farmed for all they are worth:

BBC

All to 'protect' us of course ... Jeez, how do they think they can get away with pedalling that tired old line any longer?

Don't expect much in the way of public protest of course - most of our braindead sheep will be too busy worrying about which celeb is shagging which other celeb, the plots of their favourite soap operas or the vagaries of 'reality' TV.

Good old 'democracy' means that those of us with half a brain who consider freedom and privacy worth having will lose our liberties along with the idiots who blindly accept this.

I would hate to imagine the cost of storing the information they are talking about for years, this would of course be pushed on to the consumer who will effectively be paying higher subscription charges in order to be spied on by the government "for our own safety".

I suspect this won't get very far and become reality, law enforcement and other agencies can pretty much obtain this information already to a certain degree with current legislation already, what is a concern is the pushing of more and more totalitarian controls over the population already heavily monitored as never before by the government and its agencies.

A saying comes to mind " Anyone who gives up their freedom for security , deserve neither freedom or security".

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I'd expect things like VPNs, proxies and SSH tunnels to be legislated against, in due time.

There will always be ways around it for the really determined who are prepared to spend a lot of time and effort (as well as probably committing what will by then be criminal offences) but the reality is that for the average person, privacy will be a thing of the past and being spied upon by the state will be part of life.

Over time it will become accepted that you will be spied upon everywhere, not just on the internet - watch out for snitches in pubs, trains, buses, public areas becoming normal. For our 'protection' of course. Still, just don't say anything against the wishes of your masters and their associates in business and you will be fine.

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Go back to doing things the old fashioned way.

If people do start to use letters more look for MI5 ordering large numbers of old style kettles and glue sticks B):D

Edited by madpenguin

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Yet another insane idea.

Why not just install govt approved thought software which could automatically notify the authorities of any decent.

There isn't the storage capacity to do this, all what everyone has to do is sent a 1mb photo every single day.

It's just nuts.

If fact can't we have govt installed TV so we can just watch approved programmes?

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Yet another insane idea.

Why not just install govt approved thought software which could automatically notify the authorities of any decent.

There isn't the storage capacity to do this, all what everyone has to do is sent a 1mb photo every single day.

It's just nuts.

If fact can't we have govt installed TV so we can just watch approved programmes?

I wouldn't be so sure, in one of the first books on hacking (as in unauthorised access) published in Britain (Hugo Cornwalls The Hackers Handbook) the author details how you can assess the equipment and resources of a target company just by watching the trade press and seeing what your target company has ordered over the last few years, as an example he gave Britain's secret services, from this he deduced they had enough storage for 5 Mb on every man woman and child in the UK, and that was 1985!

5Mb at the time was the size of a lot of business computers heard drives

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hackers-Handbook-Hugo-Cornwall/dp/0712606505/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1333365267&sr=8-2

1Tb these days is about 80 odd quid just from the normal internet suppliers, imagine you have the public purse at your disposal and a direct line to most large IT companies the cost could be way less even for enterprise style storage.

Update: seems my memory is playing tricks on this, seems he said 20 Million records, each containing 150 words, rather than a size, but then again I did read it when it was released (after court action I seem to remember) which was quite a while ago

http://www.wattpad.com/346704-hackers-handbook-by-hugo-cornwall?p=31

Edited by madpenguin

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I'd expect things like VPNs, proxies and SSH tunnels to be legislated against, in due time.

There will always be ways around it for the really determined who are prepared to spend a lot of time and effort (as well as probably committing what will by then be criminal offences) but the reality is that for the average person, privacy will be a thing of the past and being spied upon by the state will be part of life.

Over time it will become accepted that you will be spied upon everywhere, not just on the internet - watch out for snitches in pubs, trains, buses, public areas becoming normal. For our 'protection' of course. Still, just don't say anything against the wishes of your masters and their associates in business and you will be fine.

HM Government can already demand your encryption keys, to actually intercept stuff without you knowing is also possible with "man in the middle" attacks etc, also with the established security industry in the US and UK you never know whether commercial software has been "got at", yet another argument for using open source :)

Edited by madpenguin

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Why do they care what anyone thinks anyway? They do what the hell they want, the main political parties are the same, remember the protest at the iraq war, they didn't take a blind bit of notice. The populous are doing nothing worth spying on, apart from a few loonies strapping poorly improvised explosives to themselves once in a while, and are they going to find that needle in the haystack? And what does it matter if the general public work out we're all being farmed and the banks own the governments, what are they going to do about it? Write an email?

And besides, the sheer volume of data they may have access to presents its own problems, they're going to be incompetent at mining it the same as they're incompetent at everything else.

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I voted for this on 38degrees, but I suspect that it will be squeezed out by people wanting expensive placebos homoeopathy on the NHS...

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Well I think that the government can just go fu.....

Hang on a minute, there's someone knocking at the door.

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Why do they care what anyone thinks anyway? They do what the hell they want, the main political parties are the same, remember the protest at the iraq war, they didn't take a blind bit of notice. The populous are doing nothing worth spying on, apart from a few loonies strapping poorly improvised explosives to themselves once in a while, and are they going to find that needle in the haystack? And what does it matter if the general public work out we're all being farmed and the banks own the governments, what are they going to do about it? Write an email?

And besides, the sheer volume of data they may have access to presents its own problems, they're going to be incompetent at mining it the same as they're incompetent at everything else.

Experience has shown those in Government have more on their minds than just security, statistics issued for public use are already presented in ways the Government wish to portray them, knowing how the man in the street thinks could also be useful, only problem is they tend to pay very poorly in comparison to commercial concerns therefore whether they could get someone to effectively mine the data is questionable.

Edited by madpenguin

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Why do they care what anyone thinks anyway? They do what the hell they want, the main political parties are the same, remember the protest at the iraq war, they didn't take a blind bit of notice. The populous are doing nothing worth spying on, apart from a few loonies strapping poorly improvised explosives to themselves once in a while, and are they going to find that needle in the haystack? And what does it matter if the general public work out we're all being farmed and the banks own the governments, what are they going to do about it? Write an email?

And besides, the sheer volume of data they may have access to presents its own problems, they're going to be incompetent at mining it the same as they're incompetent at everything else.

Maybe they will watch people who go to certain websites like this one for example. Regularly going to this site might move your name onto some sort of "B list". A list of "Better watch this one as he is statistically more likely to have terrorist type thoughts".

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Maybe they will watch people who go to certain websites like this one for example. Regularly going to this site might move your name onto some sort of "B list". A list of "Better watch this one as he is statistically more likely to have terrorist type thoughts".

Quite so, witness the uses the "Patriots Act" was put to in the US, including use on people protesting environmental and healthcare issues

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Maybe they will watch people who go to certain websites like this one for example. Regularly going to this site might move your name onto some sort of "B list". A list of "Better watch this one as he is statistically more likely to have terrorist type thoughts noticed what's going on".

Fixed it for you...

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You probably get more privacy in prison. I dare say there are lawyers just lining up to uphold prisoners human rights not to have their mail screened.

Its totalitarian, nothing else, and no surprise that it was liebour and Jackboot smith that first tabled this.

As usual, the lib dems are shamefully quiet about this now they're in govt.

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It doesn't need to be efficient, though, does it. Just use statistice, use words like "the individual was highly likely to..." "fitted our terrorist profile" etc....

You only need a few dawn raids, some random "authorised shootings" to instill fear in the rest of the population.

Pretty soon, you'll have people tripping over themselves to dob others in based on their alleged "suspicious activity", in the hope that they aren't a suspect for anything. By suspect, of course, I mean being in the wrong place at the wrong time, having "suspicious movement patterns" or visiting allegedly dodgy websites (like HPC).

In addition, it's useful to retrospectively incriminate anybody they like. Even if you'[ve been squeaky clean, and don't have any dubious history, or any statistically odd behaviour, there's nothing to say that the databases couldn't be tampered with.

Big brother, indeed.

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Why do they care what anyone thinks anyway?

Control.

They do what the hell they want, the main political parties are the same, remember the protest at the iraq war, they didn't take a blind bit of notice. The populous are doing nothing worth spying on, apart from a few loonies strapping poorly improvised explosives to themselves once in a while, and are they going to find that needle in the haystack? And what does it matter if the general public work out we're all being farmed and the banks own the governments, what are they going to do about it? Write an email?

From the politicos Point of View, much easier to keep things managed when you can nip any dissent or sedition in the bud. You can also blackmail any political opponents or 'troublemakers' with juicy info that you find in their private communications. If they don't play the game I'm sure the lurid details can find their way into the hands of a friendly journalist.

From the PoV of the 'security' services, more budget for them and more leverage in the game of civil service power.

From the PoV of individuals inside the system, plenty of opportunity to enrich themselves by selling on information to third parties on the side.

From the PoV of the businesses that have large public sector involvement, lots of opportunity to sell IT goods and services to the government to enable the creation of a stasi state. I'm sure there will be lots of juicy information about consumers or competitors that any business would be willing to pay to get their hands on too.

And besides, the sheer volume of data they may have access to presents its own problems, they're going to be incompetent at mining it the same as they're incompetent at everything else.

You don't have to store all data produced by all the people. You just filter the data stream for patterns of interest and from that zoom in on those you want to spy on in more detail or those who have made it onto one of your lists of 'persons of interest' through other means. ISPs are already liable to keep lists of user access records so that logging work is already done for you.

Best of all, you just pass the enormous costs of spying on the public back onto the public through taxes. How about a 'Freedom Tax' to cover the cost of taking away people's liberties?

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I wouldn't be so sure, in one of the first books on hacking (as in unauthorised access) published in Britain (Hugo Cornwalls The Hackers Handbook) the author details how you can assess the equipment and resources of a target company just by watching the trade press and seeing what your target company has ordered over the last few years, as an example he gave Britain's secret services, from this he deduced they had enough storage for 5 Mb on every man woman and child in the UK, and that was 1985!

5Mb at the time was the size of a lot of business computers heard drives

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hackers-Handbook-Hugo-Cornwall/dp/0712606505/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1333365267&sr=8-2

1Tb these days is about 80 odd quid just from the normal internet suppliers, imagine you have the public purse at your disposal and a direct line to most large IT companies the cost could be way less even for enterprise style storage.

Update: seems my memory is playing tricks on this, seems he said 20 Million records, each containing 150 words, rather than a size, but then again I did read it when it was released (after court action I seem to remember) which was quite a while ago

http://www.wattpad.com/346704-hackers-handbook-by-hugo-cornwall?p=31

So that's assume 1tb per person will be enough.

UK population is around 60m.

So we need raid 1 x 2 as a backup system will be required housed in 2 separate locations. So that's 4 separate drives.

So that's 240m hard drives. Lets assume the govt gets a discount on 1tb drive and pays £40 each that's a total cost of £9,600,000,000 (£9.6bn). This is excluding housing the units ie server racks, buildings etc.... Don't forget your going to get hdd failures: http://www.pcworld.com/article/129558/study_hard_drive_failure_rates_much_higher_than_makers_estimate.html

However, the study showed typical annual replacement rates of between 2% and 4%, "and up to 13% observed on some systems."

So if we assume that we have a failure rate of 5% a year that's 12m hard drives that will need replacing each and every year. £480,000,000 (£480m) per year if the govt manages to get the drives for £40, remember we need enterprise level drives not consumer drives.

And what can you store on 1TB.

Stores Upto 2460 Action Packed Games

Stores Upto 284000 Digital Photo's (6Mpix)

Stores Upto 250000 MP3 Songs

Stores Upto 24000 CD Audio Songs

Stores Upto 76ours of Digital Video (DV)

Stores Upto 400 Hours of DVD Quality Video

Stores Upto 120 Hours of HD Quality Video

For £17k you could buy this

Then there's the power consumption for all of this.

And everything needs to be saved, so if I download a movie online that movie needs to be saved just in case there is a hidden message in it for a terrorist cell. 1tb is going to go nowhere in storage terms.

I reckon the cost of setting this up you will be lucky to get change out of £20bn and remember govt IT projects always run over budget. I bet the annual cost to simply store the data (ie replacement drives, power, building maintenance, manpower etc...) will be lucky to only be £1bn a year.

Did I mention austerity?

The plan is just crazy it will never work as there's too much data to store as everyone has to be considered guilty.

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It doesn't need to be efficient, though, does it. Just use statistice, use words like "the individual was highly likely to..." "fitted our terrorist profile" etc....

You only need a few dawn raids, some random "authorised shootings" to instill fear in the rest of the population.

Pretty soon, you'll have people tripping over themselves to dob others in based on their alleged "suspicious activity", in the hope that they aren't a suspect for anything. By suspect, of course, I mean being in the wrong place at the wrong time, having "suspicious movement patterns" or visiting allegedly dodgy websites (like HPC).

In addition, it's useful to retrospectively incriminate anybody they like. Even if you'[ve been squeaky clean, and don't have any dubious history, or any statistically odd behaviour, there's nothing to say that the databases couldn't be tampered with.

Big brother, indeed.

If you go to the bank to withdraw money, they will ask why you are doing it and what the money is to be used for.

There was also the case a few years back, around '05 I think, where the Gov tried to have everyone new born's DNA taken at birth and put on a register. The days when we are all tatooed with a barcode are not that far off...

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Maybe they will watch people who go to certain websites like this one for example. Regularly going to this site might move your name onto some sort of "B list". A list of "Better watch this one as he is statistically more likely to have terrorist type thoughts".

And fixed again for you

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