worried1 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 In fact I would say it is the most significant thing someone can do in their life and that until you have had them you do not fully exist. Wow, that is probably the strongest opinion I have ever seen expressed on this forum, and that is really saying something for HPC! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worried1 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 You refer to validation. This can come through rising to high office, making lots of money, penetrating lots of vaginas, or having kids. My post referenced how parenthood changed personality. Your change of topic illustrates my point well. Whatever someone is doing, whatever station they hold, they will seek to justify it. Yet all external things are transient and in then end there is only yourself and your attempts to be at peace with that. What you call hard-wired is certainly different between the genders. Many, many men would be content with impregnating a series of women whilst never seeing the resulting offspring. The hard-wired instinct is to impregnate not to have something to nurture. The problem is that not everyone sees these alternative forms of validation. As you said in your previous post, a lot of parents have nothing to talk about other than their kids and this is because having them was their life-defining moment. Besides, having kids is a lot easier than the first three items on yours list, even if bringing them up is much harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thod Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 If you speak to those that have finished with it. Would they do it all again if you offered them a free baby. They almost all say no. Been there, done that. Those that find themselves in the parenthood situation must find a mindset that accommodates their situation because they have no choice. No matter if it is true or false because walking away is not an option. Thus they invent justifications. They tell themselves that they are happier now than when they ever were. Because they have no other choice. That what they are doing is natural, that is rewarding, that is interesting. Because they have no choice. It is how the mind works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worried1 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 If you speak to those that have finished with it. Would they do it all again if you offered them a free baby. They almost all say no. Been there, done that. Those that find themselves in the parenthood situation must find a mindset that accommodates their situation because they have no choice. No matter if it is true or false because walking away is not an option. Thus they invent justifications. They tell themselves that they are happier now than when they ever were. Because they have no other choice. That what they are doing is natural, that is rewarding, that is interesting. Because they have no choice. It is how the mind works. Definitely, in exactly the same way I have justified to myself that not having kids is the best option for me. The only thing that niggles me slightly is if I will regret that decision in 20 years time. I have no desire to go through all of the banal 'bringing up' activities that my friends who have kids are doing now, but I guess it might be nice to have them visit every few weeks when I am older. By then, I will have no choice either so I guess I will just forget about it by then. It is quite similar to the 'single living' discussion itself. Living on my own would be a nightmare for me at the moment, but I am sure if I got used to it that it would end up becoming my default position and I'd get on well enough with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englebert Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 BS. Having children is hard-wired into us and transgresses all of the modern preoccupations which arise from our current 21st century mindset and culture. Having children "validates someone's existence" just as much as being born or dying does. In fact I would say it is the most significant thing someone can do in their life and that until you have had them you do not fully exist. Bullsh1t to that too! A preposterous post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Allegro Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 If you speak to those that have finished with it. Would they do it all again if you offered them a free baby. They almost all say no. Been there, done that. Those that find themselves in the parenthood situation must find a mindset that accommodates their situation because they have no choice. No matter if it is true or false because walking away is not an option. Thus they invent justifications. They tell themselves that they are happier now than when they ever were. Because they have no other choice. That what they are doing is natural, that is rewarding, that is interesting. Because they have no choice. It is how the mind works. Perhaps it might be worth asking those on here who have spawned how they feel about it? Come on readers - love them or hate them, the great British child is here to stay - and that's official, etc etc. But what do we really think about them? .I think it's a bit like marriage. Publicly nobody wants to admit they wish they hadn't done it. In private conversations with friends most say it's a mixed bag but on the whole they prefer it to being single. A friend with a child has also said this to me, that it's a right pain much of the time but with really nice times that make up for the awful times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worried1 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 A friend with a child has also said this to me, that it's a right pain much of the time but with really nice times that make up for the awful times. I'd have thought anyone who doesn't say this is not being truthful. However much you love your child(ren) being woken up in the early hours of the morning, crying, teething, arguing etc can never be enjoyable. At the same time the first words, steps etc must be massively rewarding in a way that us non-parents cannot understand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I'd have thought anyone who doesn't say this is not being truthful. However much you love your child(ren) being woken up in the early hours of the morning, crying, teething, arguing etc can never be enjoyable. At the same time the first words, steps etc must be massively rewarding in a way that us non-parents cannot understand When you have children your life changes enormously. Many of the other things you used to care so much about lose their importance, hence why many parents drop old habits / hobbies etc. Believe me, when you are there for the birth of your children your life changes irrevocably. For this first time in your life you realise that, without a doubt, you would give your life for another human being. The urge to care for and nuture your child renders all such selfish notions regarding lack of sleep, teething etc as trifling matters in the scheme of things. There is a reason that almost all parents regard having children as the best thing they ever did and it is not because they are desperately trying to validate their decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unexpected Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 When you have children your life changes enormously. Many of the other things you used to care so much about lose their importance, hence why many parents drop old habits / hobbies etc. Believe me, when you are there for the birth of your children your life changes irrevocably. For this first time in your life you realise that, without a doubt, you would give your life for another human being. The urge to care for and nuture your child renders all such selfish notions regarding lack of sleep, teething etc as trifling matters in the scheme of things. There is a reason that almost all parents regard having children as the best thing they ever did and it is not because they are desperately trying to validate their decision. Is this why many parents say they were only doing it for their kids when they overpay for a house they cant afford then get reposessed later on when they've mewed themselves into poverty. And all for the kids, not for their own selfish reasons. Then how will those precious kids be happy having to move into a substandard home. Y'know the types our hearts always bleed for. They were only trying to do the best for their kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Is this why many parents say they were only doing it for their kids when they overpay for a house they cant afford then get reposessed later on when they've mewed themselves into poverty. And all for the kids, not for their own selfish reasons. Then how will those precious kids be happy having to move into a substandard home. Y'know the types our hearts always bleed for. They were only trying to do the best for their kids. Being a parent does not imbue you with financial acumen. If you lacked it before becoming a parent then parenthood alone won't change that. Parenthood does mean that you will put others needs before your own. This is a concept that many singletons struggle with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil324 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) Being a parent does not imbue you with financial acumen. If you lacked it before becoming a parent then parenthood alone won't change that. Parenthood does mean that you will put others needs before your own. This is a concept that many singletons struggle with. Not always the case though is it. Edit. The concept is not lost on me though. It's either complete devotion or don't bother. I'm a singleton and intend to stay that way. For that very reason. Edited April 4, 2012 by neil324 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Not always the case though is it. Edit. The concept is not lost on me though. It's either complete devotion or don't bother. I'm a singleton and intend to stay that way. For that very reason. Of course there are exceptions. We are talking about the general case however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJJ Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 In fact I would say it is the most significant thing someone can do in their life and that until you have had them you do not fully exist. So the most significant thing a human can do is reproduce. Something every other species does. The defining moment of a person's life is something a virus does a million times a day. All else is for naught; humanity wrenching itself from the rest of the animals, tool-use and language and agriculture, our desire to shape the very world around us, art and science and mathematics and literature, all of it, every aspect of your life that declares to the universe your sentience and humanity, all of it trumped by something a virus can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funinhounslow Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Not got kids but have had plenty of experience of friends' and encounters with them in day to day life. OK I'm sure the first steps, words etc are rewarding but does that make up for a toddler running amok in the house after a hard day's work, having to put up with 20 questions on the bus, sitting through the LIon King for the umpteenth time? And I shudder at being responsible for a teenager... I don't especially like kids and have no desire for my own. It seems like a massive leap of faith to have children on the chance that it will "validate my existence". I read that the choice of whether or not to have children makes no difference to your overall level of happiness. I assume that this would involve taking full advantage of the opportunities of the extra time and money being childless gives you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unexpected Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Being a parent does not imbue you with financial acumen. If you lacked it before becoming a parent then parenthood alone won't change that. Parenthood does mean that you will put others needs before your own. This is a concept that many singletons struggle with. I think you completely missed my point which is that many parents do not put their kids needs before their own. How many parents help their kids with schoolwork (for many hours a week) so their kids can pass their exams and end up with a good career? I think if you can find any that are actually willing to put in an effort like this then you will have found a parent who does actually put their kids happiness above their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worried1 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 So the most significant thing a human can do is reproduce. Something every other species does. The defining moment of a person's life is something a virus does a million times a day. All else is for naught; humanity wrenching itself from the rest of the animals, tool-use and language and agriculture, our desire to shape the very world around us, art and science and mathematics and literature, all of it, every aspect of your life that declares to the universe your sentience and humanity, all of it trumped by something a virus can do. That is certainly how the mindset of some people I know has changed after they have had kids! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil324 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) Of course there are exceptions. We are talking about the general case however. Well I think the concept is not lost on most people who choose not to have children as you pointed out. It's mostly that very reason they choose not to. Not because they are sad,lonely or inept. Edited April 4, 2012 by neil324 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) Being a parent does not imbue you with financial acumen. If you lacked it before becoming a parent then parenthood alone won't change that. Parenthood does mean that you will put others needs before your own. This is a concept that many singletons struggle with. Others' needs in general, or the needs of your own children and no-one else? If it's the latter then I'm not convinced that it's wholly commendable. Edited April 4, 2012 by Scunnered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I think you completely missed my point which is that many parents do not put their kids needs before their own. How many parents help their kids with schoolwork (for many hours a week) so their kids can pass their exams and end up with a good career? I think if you can find any that are actually willing to put in an effort like this then you will have found a parent who does actually put their kids happiness above their own. I didn't miss your point. How many parents don't put their children's needs before their own? Quantify please. Ok, so sometimes a parent will act in a selfish manner. Does this negate all the times when they put their children first? As for homework. Children don't start school until at least the age of four and most likely don't have a lot of homework for several years. I personally don't know very many parents who don't read to their children or take an active part in their education. Maybe I just know nice people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 If you speak to those that have finished with it. Would they do it all again if you offered them a free baby. They almost all say no. Been there, done that. Those that find themselves in the parenthood situation must find a mindset that accommodates their situation because they have no choice. I am in my mid-30s with no children, but planning to have children soon. I feel like I have "been there, done that" for single life without children. I've done my pubbing, clubbing, travelling etc. Now it's time for something else. So the most significant thing a human can do is reproduce. Something every other species does. The defining moment of a person's life is something a virus does a million times a day. All else is for naught; humanity wrenching itself from the rest of the animals, tool-use and language and agriculture, our desire to shape the very world around us, art and science and mathematics and literature, all of it, every aspect of your life that declares to the universe your sentience and humanity, all of it trumped by something a virus can do. If their ancestors hadn't had children, the scientists and artists you trumpet would never have been born. You could devote your life to science, but equally you could spend 20 years (only a quarter of most people's lives these days) bringing up children whose descendants could one day discover things you could never dream of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
principa Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 So the most significant thing a human can do is reproduce. Something every other species does. The defining moment of a person's life is something a virus does a million times a day. All else is for naught; humanity wrenching itself from the rest of the animals, tool-use and language and agriculture, our desire to shape the very world around us, art and science and mathematics and literature, all of it, every aspect of your life that declares to the universe your sentience and humanity, all of it trumped by something a virus can do. Well, Yes. By far. All else is conditioned on reproduction. The most significant thing that Einstein's parents did was to give birth. Non-reproducers may of course do other significant things, but only within their finite lifespan. They are a dead end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJJ Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 If their ancestors hadn't had children, the scientists and artists you trumpet would never have been born. You might as well say that the point of houses is so that we don't waste all these bricks we've got. The bricks aren't the point. They're necessary steps towards a stated aim. If the brick manufacturer announced that making bricks was the point, you'd think he was mental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJJ Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) Well, Yes. By far. All else is conditioned on reproduction. That's rubbish. It's all about breathing. If we don't breath, we all die in the next ten minutes. Without children, there will still be people alive in decades. All else is conditioned on breathing. It's a far more significant biological reflex than reproducing. Edited April 4, 2012 by JJJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unexpected Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I didn't miss your point. How many parents don't put their children's needs before their own? Quantify please. Ok, so sometimes a parent will act in a selfish manner. Does this negate all the times when they put their children first? As for homework. Children don't start school until at least the age of four and most likely don't have a lot of homework for several years. I personally don't know very many parents who don't read to their children or take an active part in their education. Maybe I just know nice people. I think you did miss my point. Parents do put their own needs above that of their kids. The numbers that do this are not quantifyable so no point asking. Parents generally do what they want to do regarding looking after their kids. They have to feed them, change their nappies, entertain them etc or their own lives will be a hell. What is inbuilt does not count as putting your kids needs above your own. Nor does reading to your kids or helping them with homework when they are 6 years old. That is quite simply too easy and probably enjoyable and relaxing to the parent. I am talking about helping a teenager with difficult homework to pass important exams for their future career and success. Something no parent would want to do as its difficult and would no doubt require some learning by that parent. It is no surprise that most parents just leave their kids floundering at school and use the excuse that its the teachers job to teach their kids. The point I am trying to make is that most parents only help their kids in the way that they want to help them. Not in the way that would best serve the needs of their children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
principa Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 That's rubbish. It's all about breathing. If we don't breath, we all die in the next ten minutes. Without children, there will still be people alive in decades. All else is conditioned on breathing. Extend your horizon by more than a few decades and your argument doesn't really hold, does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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