Dave Beans

I Want To Be Alone: The Rise And Rise Of Solo Living

245 posts in this topic

That's rubbish. It's all about breathing. If we don't breath, we all die in the next ten minutes. Without children, there will still be people alive in decades. All else is conditioned on breathing.

Extend your horizon by more than a few decades and your argument doesn't really hold, does it?

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Extend your horizon by more than a few decades and your argument doesn't really hold, does it?

That will be true in fifty years and true in a hundred years. If you stop breathing, you'll die. True now, true in a few decades. Not sure what you mean by this. I was trying to illustrate that if you're judging continued human existence to be the "point", then there are far more important biological reflexes than reproducing. You can reproduce once a lifetime and achieve the "point"; stop breathing for ten minutes and it's all over. Thus, breathing is far more important.

What exactly do you think my argument is? I'll rehash.

Having children is not the most significant thing a human can do. It's necessary if there are to be humans still in existence in a thousand years, but it's not the point. I refer you to my brick analogy. We need to make bricks, but making bricks is not the point. It's what gets built using those bricks that is the point. We need to make children, but making children is not the point. It's what gets done by those children that is the point, and the best of humanity thankfully have far more to do than just wait to reproduce.

Edited by JJJ

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Having children "validates someone's existence" just as much as being born or dying does. In fact I would say it is the most significant thing someone can do in their life and that until you have had them you do not fully exist.

You have got to be shitting us, right? :blink:. Where does that leave couples who cannot have children? Childbirth doesn't justify one's existence ..... too many people have children for all the wrong reasons

Edited by Home_To_Roost

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Having children is a sacrifice as well as a responsibility.....your life will never be the same again, if you do it for the right reasons it can only enhance and make your life better. ;)

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That will be true in fifty years and true in a hundred years. If you stop breathing, you'll die. True now, true in a few decades. Not sure what you mean by this. I was trying to illustrate that if you're judging continued human existence to be the "point", then there are far more important biological reflexes than reproducing. You can reproduce once a lifetime and achieve the "point"; stop breathing for ten minutes and it's all over. Thus, breathing is far more important.

What exactly do you think my argument is? I'll rehash.

Having children is not the most significant thing a human can do. It's necessary if there are to be humans still in existence in a thousand years, but it's not the point. I refer you to my brick analogy. We need to make bricks, but making bricks is not the point. It's what gets built using those bricks that is the point. We need to make children, but making children is not the point. It's what gets done by those children that is the point, and the best of humanity thankfully have far more to do than just wait to reproduce.

Yes I get your argument: It's what you do with your life, not life itself. (dropping the brick analogy)

And you are saying that our ability to create new life is not the most significant thing we can do.

It's certainly not a unique or rare power, for sure. But, creating life has the capability to fundamentally change the way you see the world and your purpose/existence.

So I don't think we are in disagreement, just speaking on entirely different levels here (I am in the clouds, sadly!)

You have got to be shitting us, right? :blink:. Where does that leave couples who cannot have children? Childbirth doesn't justify one's existence ..... too many people have children for all the wrong reasons

It usually leaves them sad and feeling a little empty in my experience, which is why many do the next best thing and adopt.

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it is the most significant thing someone can do in their life

Speak for yourself! :lol:

This is an example of a parent getting hot under the collar when it is spelt out to them that it might have been a mistake. Note the lack of a rational argument. See how it is not others they are trying to convince - it is themselves.

We don't care, have kids if you want to. But don't pretend the choice you're stuck with that potentially ruined your life was a good one, you're plainly angry about something.

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I agree. As I have gone through my early 30s, most of my friends have become parents. The problem is that they tend to become only parents, with virtually everything else falling by the wayside. It suits me quite well as a friend because although I see them less often when we do go out we tend to have a bit of a blast because it will be the only time that they have got away from the kids that month.

It has certainly made me think twice about having kids. A couple of years ago, I would definitely have said I would want kids, but it now appears that was really just because it is the automatic thing to do.

All of my friends that are parents have said that it is the single best thing they have done and I am sure it is massively rewarding, but it does seem to come at the expense of everything else.

At the moment we have quite a nice lifestyle fuelled by a reasonable income - plenty of holidays, going out, saving and no problems with paying the day to day bills. If we became parents, our income would halve (either by losing one salary, or by paying out £1k a week for nursery bills) and other expenses would rocket (need bigger house, car, food bills etc).We would also become only parents.

The way I see it, having kids would be a bit like buying an overpriced house for us - I am sure we'd get the rewards, but it would put us under a lot of pressure financially in that we'd need to hang onto jobs rather than being able to cope with a period of unemployment as we could at the moment. It is also a 20-30 year commitment that we couldn't exactly get out of if we wanted to.

Then again, it is probably not a decision that you can really rationalise like that.

Don't forget there's 2 'i's in "biological clock".

All I can say is enjoy being single, make the most of it. Enjoy being in a childless couple, make the most of it and finally when a parent, enjoy it and make the most of it. They're all different.

Says I, who last night had to get up at 4 to sleep in my 4 year old's bed because he was scared of the wind and dinosaurs.

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There is a reason that almost all parents regard having children as the best thing they ever did and it is not because they are desperately trying to validate their decision.

They are tricked by mother nature. It has become a necessary evolved trait that a parent cares for its young above all else, of course other seemingly important matters drop away. I'd rather keep my faculties. To see others lose theirs to parenthood is actually quite saddening to me.

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It's what gets done by those children that is the point, and the best of humanity thankfully have far more to do than just wait to reproduce.

Yes. You're making my points far better than me.

The world would be a poorer place had the great thinkers popped sprogs and spent the day playing peek-a-boo instead of valuable work. But according to some that would have been time better spent. Differences of opinion there that I think cannot be resolved.

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Speak for yourself! :lol:

This is an example of a parent getting hot under the collar when it is spelt out to them that it might have been a mistake. Note the lack of a rational argument. See how it is not others they are trying to convince - it is themselves.

We don't care, have kids if you want to. But don't pretend the choice you're stuck with that potentially ruined your life was a good one, you're plainly angry about something.

ha ha. I love this forum ! to other lurkers - drop in once in a while to get abused! Love the "We" in your post by the way and how you think you can read my intentions.

The great thing is, being the internet, your bullying and personal insult doesn't really work.

Time to sign off I think. To all those thinking about children and are unsure ... just do it :-)

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In fact I would say it is the most significant thing someone can do in their life and that until you have had them you do not fully exist.

You were asking for abuse when you wrote this.

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ha ha. I love this forum ! to other lurkers - drop in once in a while to get abused! Love the "We" in your post by the way and how you think you can read my intentions.

There may well be an element of that as there is on most forums, but in fairness, you did make probably the most astounding statement I have ever heard:

'Having children "validates someone's existence" just as much as being born or dying does. In fact I would say it is the most significant thing someone can do in their life and that until you have had them you do not fully exist'

Even most of the hardcore preacher-type parents would disagree with this and it is a bit insulting to those who can't have kids or do not want them.

If you go onto any forum spouting really extreme views there will always be others looking to 'abuse' you, and your views on this subject seem about the most extreme I have ever seen.

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So I don't think we are in disagreement, just speaking on entirely different levels here (I am in the clouds, sadly!)

Ironically, I would have put your argument on the floor and mine in the clouds.

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There may well be an element of that as there is on most forums, but in fairness, you did make probably the most astounding statement I have ever heard:

'Having children "validates someone's existence" just as much as being born or dying does. In fact I would say it is the most significant thing someone can do in their life and that until you have had them you do not fully exist'

Even most of the hardcore preacher-type parents would disagree with this and it is a bit insulting to those who can't have kids or do not want them.

If you go onto any forum spouting really extreme views there will always be others looking to 'abuse' you, and your views on this subject seem about the most extreme I have ever seen.

I do not see it as an extreme view, but an existential argument. Philosophical.

However, it is aimed at the wrong audience and I can that it is liable to cause - so sorry to those reading it who were personally offended!

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I guess the relevent point here is the costs involved in accommodation. I've said it before and I still believe it: singles and single earning couples just can't compete with dual earning families. Neither me nor the missus are ever going to be super earners but as we both earn "average" salaries and our ability to pay a mortgage just seems so much higher. We actually pay a large % of our household income on the mortgage, and could happily pay more in the event of IR rises, right now we can afford to mitigate this risk by over paying.

For example. If I earn 2k and need 1k for the mortgage and 1k to live on (we actually spend less than this but hey I don't want to use our real numbers!), then any money the missus earns is a bonus, we can over pay, put into a pension, blow it on a holiday. So if she brings in 1k, our mortgage can double and it wouldn't hurt our day to day life*. If she matches my salary then we could even spend 3k (75% of our earnings!) and still be on an even footing with a single earner! In reality we wouldn't go to that extreme as we want to allow for IR rises, keep over paying to mitigate the risk of high future IRs and a couple might want to start a family at some point.

But you can see how a single earning household is going to be priced out.

Utter toss, I don't know anybody who lives on their own by choice, most are either looking but haven't found the right partner yet, or they have given up looking but still have the desire to share their live with someone.

This kinda stuff is well documented by psycology, attachment theory is a good starter. Some people are wired not to want to form relationships. I was actually relieved when I learnt more about this as I only ever wanted to settle down but was pressured at school / uni into playing the field - wasn't cool to want a LTR where I was! But looking back now I can see I wasn't a freak, I was just wired differently.

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Having lived alone (ie, in my own flat, not with flatmates) for 12 years, and having been engaged and shacked up for a year, perhaps I'm not able to give much insight, but here's my 2p worth:

Advantages of living alone:

Can do what you want, when you want

Can have all the furniture etc, tidyness levels, music, tv progs completely to your taste

Don't have to worry about another person, where they are, what they're doing etc

Occasional hook ups with some new girl

Disadvantages

Can't really think of any. The lack of regular sex can be a bit tedious but it wasn't the end of the world. Sometimes in the evenings after a rough day at work it could be a bit depressing, but most of the time was fine.

Advantages of living with someone

Big financial savings

Companionship/regular sex (haha we hope)

Mutual support and help

Disadvantages

I'm obsessively tidy, she's not, so a bit of friction there.

Having to do everything via mutual consent is a bit tedious sometimes.

For me it's the other way round. Post the usual house shares, 4-5 years living with my then partner followed by 10 or so living alone. I would say the above list is bang on the money with two minor amendments. When single the "occasional hook ups with some new girl" were perhaps rather more occasional than I might have wished! And just see how long the regular sex when cohabiting lasts. Although maybe that was just me :D

The mutual support and help is a biggie though. Not only with big emotional things. There's a reason why most people who live alone have a place that looks like a bomb's hit it most of the time. Not so much that they're out more. Rather that it's such hard work keeping on top of everything alone.

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Utter toss, I don't know anybody who lives on their own by choice, most are either looking but haven't found the right partner yet, or they have given up looking but still have the desire to share their live with someone.

This is just typical NWO propaganda, dived and conquer, keep people isolated and dependant on the state, trying to convince us that it's 'normal' to be alone and that we are better off alone.

I missed this reply first time around. I am not sure what it is about this topic, but it certainly brings out some strong opinions!

I'd certainly not want to live on my own, but I have several close friends who do either because they have been burned in previous relationships or just because they value their own space. One of these friends is actually in a long term relationship, but neither partner has the desire to move in with each other!

I'd agree that most people want to be part of a couple, in the same way that most people want to have a baby, but the minority who genuinely don't is definitely increasing.

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Is this why many parents say they were only doing it for their kids when they overpay for a house they cant afford then get reposessed later on when they've mewed themselves into poverty. And all for the kids, not for their own selfish reasons. Then how will those precious kids be happy having to move into a substandard home.

Y'know the types our hearts always bleed for. They were only trying to do the best for their kids. <_<

+1 to that,

I've a brother who is always up to his nuts in debt and getting bailed out by BoMaD, all so that his kids wont have to go without the things he did as a kid. Or, is it his way of getting the things he always wanted knowing the M&D (Well M) wont let the grandkids fall on hard times.

Also have a mate who should be very comfortable as he bought his first house in the mid 90's. Yep, you guessed it - MEWd it to death all so the kids could have two holidays a year and be seen in a new car.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

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BS. Having children is hard-wired into us and transgresses all of the modern preoccupations which arise from our current 21st century mindset and culture. Having children "validates someone's existence" just as much as being born or dying does. In fact I would say it is the most significant thing someone can do in their life and that until you have had them you do not fully exist.

Read up a little, the mind plays trick on you.

Everything you do is for yourself, only you matter. You had children to 'validate your existence' as you felt like nothing beforehand.

It worked for you, and others, but not everyone needs this self confirmation.

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+1 to that,

I've a brother who is always up to his nuts in debt and getting bailed out by BoMaD, all so that his kids wont have to go without the things he did as a kid. Or, is it his way of getting the things he always wanted knowing the M&D (Well M) wont let the grandkids fall on hard times.

Also have a mate who should be very comfortable as he bought his first house in the mid 90's. Yep, you guessed it - MEWd it to death all so the kids could have two holidays a year and be seen in a new car.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

See how false all the demand is/was in our consumer based economy?!

I'd rather returns on Labour maintained some kind of parallel relationship to productivity over the last 30 odd years. Then maybe people could spend money they've earned instead of redistributing money that was leant.

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See how false all the demand is/was in our consumer based economy?!

I'd rather returns on Labour maintained some kind of parallel relationship to productivity over the last 30 odd years. Then maybe people could spend money they've earned instead of redistributing money that was leant.

More importantly, how compounded and structured into the cost of everything is all that debt?

If everything you bought was made using debt free raw materials, labour, premisis etc..

What would the cost of everyday things actually be?

(one for a new thread maybe)

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More importantly, how compounded and structured into the cost of everything is all that debt?

If everything you bought was made using debt free raw materials, labour, premisis etc..

What would the cost of everyday things actually be?

(one for a new thread maybe)

One person's debt is another person's asset. Therefore cancelling debt may reduce prices, but it might also reduce demand by a corresponding amount?

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One person's debt is another person's asset. Therefore cancelling debt may reduce prices, but it might also reduce demand by a corresponding amount?

Quite, should have been interest not debt.

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Having lived alone (ie, in my own flat, not with flatmates) for 12 years, and having been engaged and shacked up for a year, perhaps I'm not able to give much insight, but here's my 2p worth:

Nice post.

Relationships are compromise. It's never going to be smooth sailing all the way. Of course, you don't know what you had until it's gone... unless it was really bad. Can't say I find myself reminiscing about the Cruella da Vil types. :rolleyes:

Edited by tinker

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