winkie Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 And, listening to what other attendees were actually doing in the city, and having worked in and for City firms...I suddenly came to the conclusion that much of the CITY is really just a glorified CALL CENTRE. Interesting......why do you think people have to travel into the city on the tube from surrounding areas to work in a soulless glass office so called call centre?....there must be another way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Interesting......why do you think people have to travel into the city on the tube from surrounding areas to work in a soulless glass office so called call centre?....there must be another way? Its a glass, marble and gold office...well the foyers often are... And to get to their outplacement offices too. Edited March 30, 2012 by Bloo Loo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Its a glass, marble and gold office...well the foyers often are... And to get to their outplacement offices too. So what you are saying is outplacement are unable to place so are only there to show willing, and the jobs that are there could be just as effective but more productive being in another place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 So what you are saying is outplacement are unable to place so are only there to show willing, and the jobs that are there could be just as effective but more productive being in another place? Im suggesting that the only reason the city seems as vibrant as it is, could be down to the vast industry of outplacement firms with the redundant using power and resources for jobs in the city. The Industry seems to be claiming they are vital as they prevent employees suing for damages as they are proof the employer took all reasonable steps...I think this is a lie, and many of said outplacement firms are backed by government and EC grants.....they are unaccountable in that nobody gives a frag if the service is poor, and just who would you complain to?...your ex employer....yeah right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Im suggesting that the only reason the city seems as vibrant as it is, could be down to the vast industry of outplacement firms with the redundant using power and resources for jobs in the city. The Industry seems to be claiming they are vital as they prevent employees suing for damages as they are proof the employer took all reasonable steps...I think this is a lie, and many of said outplacement firms are backed by government and EC grants.....they are unaccountable in that nobody gives a frag if the service is poor, and just who would you complain to?...your ex employer....yeah right. Think what you say about the legal issues are true, also it probably acts as a salve to those still employed at companies "when we make people redundant we of course offer help" Doesn't hide the fact the UK economy needs real jobs. I am a big fan of remote working for traditional jobs, in terms of reducing the strain on travel infrastructure it would bring big benefits, the only downside is the appallingly bad communications infrastructure in the UK, ADSL in most places is crap compared to the services on offer in other countries. Most of my company and colleagues work around Europe but it's nearly always the people in the UK who have slow speeds and erratic service Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuBrit Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Like i said i accept that the system is broken, and housing is too expensive But i look at my peers (most in their 30s, some older some younger) the ones that are struggling are all ones who live in the way that i describe. For the last 5-15 years (since they have been working) every one of them has CHOSEN to spendt every penny of their disposable income on consumables and shiny stuff, with not one monemt of consideration for next year. That's nobody's fault but their own. I agree. I know so many people in my age cohort (late-twenties/early-thirties) who are living at home and living like they're still in uni (holidays, music festivals, gap years, shiny things, boozing, etc.). Despite the fact that they are only paying their parents a nominal amount of rent/housekeeping, they're still permanently skint. I blame the media and advertising industries for giving young people these ridiculous entitlement mentalities. My wife recently had some friends over and we were showing them around our house (finally properly finished after 2 years) and one of them remarked how we were "so lucky" - as if to say we didn't work for the house, or a bargain simply fell into our laps. What she obviously didn't realise is that the house was the culmination of 10 years of effort (a degree, a post-graduate qualification, a full-time job, rent, nights spent studying for certifications, lots of saving, and even beans on toast for dinner a few times when money was tight). I blame advertising and the media for the attitudes of a lot of my generation to be honest. There seems to be this wishy washy perception that has come in from the US that young people can be whatever they want to be and that they can have it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) I agree. I know so many people in my age cohort (late-twenties/early-thirties) who are living at home and living like they're still in uni (holidays, music festivals, gap years, shiny things, boozing, etc.). Despite the fact that they are only paying their parents a nominal amount of rent/housekeeping, they're still permanently skint. I blame the media and advertising industries for giving young people these ridiculous entitlement mentalities. My wife recently had some friends over and we were showing them around our house (finally properly finished after 2 years) and one of them remarked how we were "so lucky" - as if to say we didn't work for the house, or a bargain simply fell into our laps. What she obviously didn't realise is that the house was the culmination of 10 years of effort (a degree, a post-graduate qualification, a full-time job, rent, nights spent studying for certifications, lots of saving, and even beans on toast for dinner a few times when money was tight). I blame advertising and the media for the attitudes of a lot of my generation to be honest. There seems to be this wishy washy perception that has come in from the US that young people can be whatever they want to be and that they can have it all. Too harsh I think, if the things that were obtainable to former generations are realistically unobtainable to this one, why not just blow the cash and have a good time, should they just meekly save every penny in the hope they may be able to buy a one bedroom flat when they are 55? This is a failure of the economy and the market, I don't begrudge younger people having a good time while they are young, life's bad enough without living it like a Trappist monk. Yes you saved and went without to get your house but at the time it was an achievable dream, otherwise you wouldn't have done it, I'm also willing to bet you had secure, reliable employment through the term of the mortgage. I don't think you realise how hard the employment market is now for young people and the extent to which wages have been driven down. Edited March 30, 2012 by madpenguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybernoid Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Yes you saved and went without to get your house but at the time it was an achievable dream, otherwise you wouldn't have done it, I'm also willing to bet you had secure, reliable employment through the term of the mortgage. I don't think you realise how hard the employment market is now for young people and the extent to which wages have been driven down. A cat and now a penguin. I have some sympathy with the view, there is a point at which it's just not worth sacrificing your youth for a mildly less crap lifestyle. There is a point at which it's not worth trying, and just pi55ing about instead. Why play a rigged game, there's plenty of better things to do. "The boomers can stick their overpriced boring houses, I've off down the beach." Wise? Youth is valuable, don't waste it chasing an unattainable goal, particularly if that goal is a house. Woop de doo... a house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) A cat and now a penguin. I have some sympathy with the view, there is a point at which it's just not worth sacrificing your youth for a mildly less crap lifestyle. There is a point at which it's not worth trying, and just pi55ing about instead. Why play a rigged game, there's plenty of better things to do. "The boomers can stick their overpriced boring houses, I've off down the beach." Wise? Youth is valuable, don't waste it chasing an unattainable goal, particularly if that goal is a house. Woop de doo... a house. The problem is buying a house by obtaining a mortgage is based around an outdated premise, basically that people taking on a mortgage have a job for life, steady, stable, join as tea boy, retire as a senior manager or foreman. That scenario is very rare these days, getting a job in the first place is hard enough for young people, with or without a degree, few careers offer that kind of security except those in government and even those are being cut back. House prices these days are ridiculous, as few people on this site would dispute, you always hear people saying "course I had it tough when I bought my house but I still managed it" ignoring the fact they were likely paying off a mortgage of 40-50k or less, whereas these days young people would need mortgages probably double that or maybe more, against a backdrop of falling or static wages, particularly in London and the South We are currently in the 2000's version if the 1930's (As a matter of fact I saw somewhere the current crisis has lasted longer) but we're judging young people with 1960-80's points of view By the way I'm in my mid fifties, but I've got kids who are late teens early twenties, it's clear to me young people haven't got it easy when it comes to getting stable work or a living wage these days Edited March 30, 2012 by madpenguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyHead Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The problem is buying a house by obtaining a mortgage is based around an outdated premise, basically that people taking on a mortgage have a job for life, steady, stable, join as tea boy, retire as a senior manager or foreman. That scenario is very rare these days, getting a job in the first place is hard enough for young people, with or without a degree, few careers offer that kind of security except those in government and even those are being cut back. House prices these days are ridiculous, as few people on this site would dispute, you always hear people saying "course I had it tough when I bought my house but I still managed it" ignoring the fact they were likely paying off a mortgage of 40-50k or less, whereas these days young people would need mortgages probably double that or maybe more, against a backdrop of falling or static wages, particularly in London and the South We are currently in the 2000's version if the 1930's (As a matter of fact I saw somewhere the current crisis has lasted longer) but we're judging young people with 1960-80's points of view By the way I'm in my mid fifties, but I've got kids who are late teens early twenties, it's clear to me young people haven't got it easy when it comes to getting stable work or a living wage these days +1000 It's really good to hear a sympathetic analysis of what the younger generation are facing from someone in their 50s. Most of my parents peers are critical of us, often to the point of humiliation and cruelty frankly. I hope there are more people as intelligent as you. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 By the way I'm in my mid fifties, but I've got kids who are late teens early twenties, it's clear to me young people haven't got it easy when it comes to getting stable work or a living wage these days Agree with all your post.....so the people they should be targeting for votes (the majority of the country) are the young who are unable to provide a roof for their family and their parents who will be housing and supporting their offspring for longer than they thought they would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Agree with all your post.....so the people they should be targeting for votes (the majority of the country) are the young who are unable to provide a roof for their family and their parents who will be housing and supporting their offspring for longer than they thought they would. What they should be doing is creating an environment where small/medium sized businesses can thrive and also attack basic living costs, (rent, food, utilities travel), then jobs, and economic well being follow automatically, if people have sufficient money and job security they will buy houses, and other things too, this is how it always worked in the past Problem is the UK government (of whatever colour) favours the big boys, who are exactly the kind of people who will want to run with minimal staff and low wages, or worse offshore/onshore the lot, we just need a Government who think of the well being of ordinary people first, and want to make the country a nice place to live Edited March 30, 2012 by madpenguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybernoid Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 we just need a Government who think of the well being of ordinary people first, and want to make the country a nice place to live I don't think any country has ever had that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) I don't think any country has ever had that It's a question of degrees, I'm not talking about paradise, but the UK has gone sharply in the other direction Our government thinks only of pleasing large companies and multinationals, you see it in every policy, why do you think we have high immigration (depresses wages, no training programs needed), privitised utilities/transport (large profits for private companies, no comeback on the government for failure). Ministers will feign disgust and amazement to the media but then go and implement policies specifically to make the situation worse, or shore up the existing situation Saw something on the news this morning that most government senior civil service managers and former Defense ministers end up working for BAE. Now I've worked in Germany and Holland I do seem to sense a different attitude here, they tend to support the smaller business a lot more , and offer much more support to allow people to work, (childcare facilities etc) Edited March 30, 2012 by madpenguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 The problem is buying a house by obtaining a mortgage is based around an outdated premise, basically that people taking on a mortgage have a job for life, steady, stable, join as tea boy, retire as a senior manager or foreman. That scenario is very rare these days, getting a job in the first place is hard enough for young people, with or without a degree, few careers offer that kind of security except those in government and even those are being cut back. House prices these days are ridiculous, as few people on this site would dispute, you always hear people saying "course I had it tough when I bought my house but I still managed it" ignoring the fact they were likely paying off a mortgage of 40-50k or less, whereas these days young people would need mortgages probably double that or maybe more, against a backdrop of falling or static wages, particularly in London and the South We are currently in the 2000's version if the 1930's (As a matter of fact I saw somewhere the current crisis has lasted longer) but we're judging young people with 1960-80's points of view By the way I'm in my mid fifties, but I've got kids who are late teens early twenties, it's clear to me young people haven't got it easy when it comes to getting stable work or a living wage these days Moreover, you have to have a guaranteed level of income for the next 25, 30 or even 40 years....Most are living hand to mouth, and cannot afford to be out of work for a month, let alone 3-6 or 12 months... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Too harsh I think, if the things that were obtainable to former generations are realistically unobtainable to this one, why not just blow the cash and have a good time, should they just meekly save every penny in the hope they may be able to buy a one bedroom flat when they are 55? The housing market goes in cycles. Just because housing is stupidly overpriced now doesn't mean it's going to stay that way until twentysomethings are in their 50s. This is a failure of the economy and the market, I don't begrudge younger people having a good time while they are young, life's bad enough without living it like a Trappist monk. Yes you saved and went without to get your house but at the time it was an achievable dream, otherwise you wouldn't have done it, I'm also willing to bet you had secure, reliable employment through the term of the mortgage. Again - cycles. Boom and bust. This time around the idiots are pulling out all the stops to save the banks, which means that house prices have been supported for much longer than they would otherwise have been - but housing price levels are simply not sustainable and must fall sharply. Unless of course we get raging out of control inflation of course. I don't think you realise how hard the employment market is now for young people and the extent to which wages have been driven down. The employment market is always hard for young people, especially when we have a nasty recession. I had the pleasure of looking for my first proper job in the recession of the early 90s. I ended up doing further education, a variety of make-work 'vocational training' type courses and then a series of low-paid, short term contracts before I finally got something approaching a decently paid permanent job in the late 90s. That's the way the cookie crumbles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Moreover, you have to have a guaranteed level of income for the next 25, 30 or even 40 years....Most are living hand to mouth, and cannot afford to be out of work for a month, let alone 3-6 or 12 months... Exactly, and if you are out of work for any length of time the credit rating agencies and credit companies will ensure you become a credit untouchable for up to 6 years after your problems (I have a number of friends who having lost work are almost immediately hit by the council for council tax arrears, or by credit companies for non payment leading to ccj's and other problems, even if they talk to them and explain the situation the attitude by everyone seems entirely unsympathetic) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) The housing market goes in cycles. Just because housing is stupidly overpriced now doesn't mean it's going to stay that way until twentysomethings are in their 50s. Again - cycles. Boom and bust. This time around the idiots are pulling out all the stops to save the banks, which means that house prices have been supported for much longer than they would otherwise have been - but housing price levels are simply not sustainable and must fall sharply. Unless of course we get raging out of control inflation of course. The employment market is always hard for young people, especially when we have a nasty recession. I had the pleasure of looking for my first proper job in the recession of the early 90s. I ended up doing further education, a variety of make-work 'vocational training' type courses and then a series of low-paid, short term contracts before I finally got something approaching a decently paid permanent job in the late 90s. That's the way the cookie crumbles. None of which changes the fact we are currently in an extreme case of all the above situations, knowing house prices will not be overpriced in the future doesn't help anyone wanting to buy now, if anything it makes them put off the purchase. I also had to look for work in the era you mention, it doesn't approach the situation now, particularly if you are straight from school or Uni and have no experience, there are any number of foreign workers who have experience, training and will work for wages previously only first jobbers or students would work for, this situation has only really arisen in the last 5 or so years. Try finding any company running graduate or apprentice courses anywhere Edited March 30, 2012 by madpenguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 My wife recently had some friends over and we were showing them around our house (finally properly finished after 2 years) and one of them remarked how we were "so lucky" - as if to say we didn't work for the house, or a bargain simply fell into our laps. What she obviously didn't realise is that the house was the culmination of 10 years of effort (a degree, a post-graduate qualification, a full-time job, rent, nights spent studying for certifications, lots of saving, and even beans on toast for dinner a few times when money was tight). Indeed. House prices ARE too high, and the jobs market IS tougher for young people today. These are genuine problems, and outside the control of young people. But, as well as that, I think a large number of the current younger generation are simply not as good as their parents at exercising financial restraint today in order to provide for a better tomorrow. Maybe it's the power of advertising, maybe it's peer pressure, maybe it's the hopelessness of how out of reach housing seems. I don't know. But it IS under their control whether they buy the latest ipad as opposed to put that £300 in an ISA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The employment market is always hard for young people, especially when we have a nasty recession. I had the pleasure of looking for my first proper job in the recession of the early 90s. I ended up doing further education, a variety of make-work 'vocational training' type courses and then a series of low-paid, short term contracts before I finally got something approaching a decently paid permanent job in the late 90s. That's the way the cookie crumbles. The big problem today is it is becoming harder for a higher percentage of young people.....there will always be the few that will succeed be it nature or nurture......in the late 70s early 80s a kid could make it leaving school with no qualifications, coming from the wrong school as well as coming from a working class poor background. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madpenguin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) But it IS under their control whether they buy the latest ipad as opposed to put that £300 in an ISA. ....and watch the value of the cash in that ISA depreciate as the BOE go mad with quantitative easing etc. with the resale value of Apple products they may get a better return from the iPad Edited March 30, 2012 by madpenguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Indeed. House prices ARE too high, and the jobs market IS tougher for young people today. These are genuine problems, and outside the control of young people. But, as well as that, I think a large number of the current younger generation are simply not as good as their parents at exercising financial restraint today in order to provide for a better tomorrow. Maybe it's the power of advertising, maybe it's peer pressure, maybe it's the hopelessness of how out of reach housing seems. I don't know. But it IS under their control whether they buy the latest ipad as opposed to put that £300 in an ISA. Saving for what you want / for a rainy day is indeed a "good thing", rather than putting it on the never never, however there isn't any reward for saving these days, so for a lot of people, they would rather enjoy what they earn rather than it sitting in an account making bugger all... Certain banks actually make it harder to take out credit...Natwest is one of them..I sell goods, and some people request credit. They don't put account numbers on any of their cards. We need those to setup DDs. Edited March 30, 2012 by Dave Beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybernoid Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 maybe it's the hopelessness of how out of reach housing seems. It's that. If they scrimp and save as hard as they can they save a ridiculously low proportion of what they need to live in squalor. It's not worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 It's that. If they scrimp and save as hard as they can they save a ridiculously low proportion of what they need to live in squalor. It's not worth it. ...It is that, when something is deemed to be seen as unachievable, all hope is then lost.....so yes, I would say you do go on that extra holiday or buy that nice car, a replacement of sorts for the nice house maybe that is beyond attainable reach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia O'Keeffe Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) ...It is that, when something is deemed to be seen as unachievable, all hope is then lost.....so yes, I would say you do go on that extra holiday or buy that nice car, a replacement of sorts for the nice house maybe that is beyond attainable reach. Of course if there is the perception that you are in a not particularly safe job going places, the comically low contributory benefits and relatively high non contributory complete means tested benefits makes saving for relatively low earners very much a retarded thing to do in the UK, at least above the radar Edited March 30, 2012 by Georgia O'Keeffe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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