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Saving For a Space Ship

Irish Antitax Movement - Stoicism Wearing Thin

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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/world/europe/growing-antitax-movement-shows-irish-stoicism-wearing-thin.html?_r=3

[quote]
Urged on by promoters of a tax boycott, fully 85 percent of Irish homeowners have yet to pay a $130 property tax that is due March 31. The latest official figures show that just 225,000 property owners out of 1.6 million have paid a total of $29 million — well short of the more than $200 million the government was planning to raise to help support public services.

The government has so far dismissed talk that the boycott is gathering strength, saying the Irish are notorious procrastinators on money matters.

“The Irish people are law-abiding citizens and will pay the charge before March 31,” a government spokesman said. “We are ready to cope with a late surge — Irish people always tend to leave it to the last minute to pay their bills.”

The boycott’s organizers see it differently.

“The reality is people are not paying for a reason — they are consciously using this to strike back,” Cian Prendiville, a prominent organizer in the Campaign Against Household and Water Taxes, said in an interview. “This is mass civil disobedience in the finest boycott tradition.”

This protest, initiated by nine left-wing opposition members of Parliament in December, has found resonance among “Middle Ireland” — an older, settled demographic made up of hard-pressed homeowners, many of whom would have voted for the mainstream government parties at the last general election just over a year ago.
[/quote]

Discussed on Kaiser Report (from beginning)

http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/episode-265-max-keiser/

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Also from the same article...
[quote]Perhaps most significant is the coincidence that on the same day the household tax is due, Irish taxpayers will have to pay $4 billion to make good on some of the monumental debts run up by the failed Anglo Irish Bank.[b] The household tax is also the prelude to a much bigger property tax that is being demanded next year by the so-called troika [/b]of lenders — the European Union, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank — under the terms of Ireland’s bailout deal.
The government spokesman acknowledged that there “is no Plan B,” and it remains unclear what the government will do if the boycott succeeds. ....

..Mr. Prendiville, the campaign organizer, says that despite their efforts to play down the boycott, government officials are deeply concerned.
...“It will be a real nightmare scenario for the government because[b] it doesn’t have the resources to enforce payment,” [/b]he said. “They can intimidate and browbeat all they like, but they don’t have the wherewithal to collect what people are not prepared or cannot afford to give them.” [/quote]

If the government can't collect this small amount due now, what hope do they have to enforce the troika's future larger property tax payments?

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[quote]Property Tax (IBI): local
Filing period: Varies depending on the municipality, but normally between September and November of each year.

Each year, the municipality issues a property tax payment slip for all properties. The tax is usually between .5% and 1.1% of the cadastral value (valor catastral) of your property, which is roughly 20 times lower than the market value.
[/quote]

Spanish property tax. :rolleyes:

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[quote name='doccyboy' timestamp='1332755342' post='909000152']
They don't have council tax in the ROI just pay for bins being emptied. At 100 quid this is a cheap property tax. I think the IMF want higher charges brought in and this is just the start.


In Scotland many people are paying more than 2K a year for council tax.
[/quote]


im paying 1.4k a year for a small flat . its utter crazy

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[quote name='homeless' timestamp='1332757247' post='909000164']
im paying 1.4k a year for a small flat . its utter crazy
[/quote]

You can rent a half decent small apartment in China for 1.4k a year. Oh you meant council tax didn't you? And here as me thinking you meant rental cost ;)

Sucks for you Brits, I like being an expat. I don't know what the fuss over the NHS is, I had a semi-serious health condition and got it treated for just 300 pounds here. Healthcare isn't a ripoff in most countries, just in the US which is a health insurance cartel. Edited by Saberu

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UK council tax does seem the most likely candidate for a future tax boycott. Everybody has to pay it, it's ridiculously regressive, and it's one of the only taxes where you actually have to get your chequebook or debit card out rather than having it automatically deducted behind the scenes.

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[quote name='Dorkins' timestamp='1332758209' post='909000175']
UK council tax does seem the most likely candidate for a future tax boycott. Everybody has to pay it, it's ridiculously regressive, and it's one of the only taxes where you actually have to get your chequebook or debit card out rather than having it automatically deducted behind the scenes.
[/quote]


In Greece they planned to take it out via the electricity bills.

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[quote name='doccyboy' timestamp='1332755342' post='909000152']In Scotland many people are paying more than 2K a year for council tax.[/quote]

Though not THAT many as you only pay it if you aren't on benefits... :P

{Starts fight, leaves} Edited by RufflesTheGuineaPig

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[quote name='hotairmail' timestamp='1332758610' post='909000179']
In Greece they planned to take it out via the electricity bills.
[/quote]

The state will always fight against tax boycotts, but there will always be countermeasures if enough of the population is sufficiently determined. In the Greek situation people could continue to send the electric companies cheques large enough to pay for the cost of the electricity but not the property tax. I doubt the electric companies would agree to cut off power to 80% of the population.

In the end, it all depends on the resolve of the general public in refusing to be mistreated anymore.

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What a pity that the electorate didn't wake up and take action against the politicians when they had the chance.

However, when it comes down to the nitty gritty of homeowners having to pay property tax they suddenly grow a backbone. I'm sure they'll figure out ways to pass any lost revenue on to everyone (home owning or not) somehow.

Given that an out of control property boom consisting of thicko members of the public scrambling to borrow huge amounts from greedy banks only too willing to give it out is the main cause of Ireland's demise, only fair that the property owners should be heavily tapped to cover the banks' bad debts.

Better of course if the banks' bad debts had remained the banks' .. but that goes back to the population being so dumb/docile that they just went with the political status quo and voted out main party to replace it with the second party which was just a toned down version of the bigger one.. Just revolving doors.

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[quote name='doccyboy' timestamp='1332755342' post='909000152']
They don't have council tax in the ROI just pay for bins being emptied. At 100 quid this is a cheap property tax. I think the IMF want higher charges brought in and this is just the start.


In Scotland many people are paying more than 2K a year for council tax.
[/quote]

Isn't there quite a strong historical resistance to land taxation down south too, due to it being a foreign tax (rent) implemented by previous occupiers (placed by British royalty)?

I also understand that Ireland has a history of common land ownership, with large fields spreading for miles in Cork.

If there is a line in the sand (or rather, the land) to be drawn, this may be the one.


EDIT: BTW, this was posted before, but is related. I think the Irish are starting to realise what their constitutional rights are, including the right to legal rebellion.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpUjl4LvQM8[/media] Edited by Traktion

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[quote name='Saberu' timestamp='1332758084' post='909000171']I like being an expat. I don't know what the fuss over the NHS is, I had a semi-serious health condition and got it treated for just 300 pounds here. [/quote]

Dude, that sucks, glad you got it cleared up and can be comfortable in Y fronts once more ;)

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[quote name='doccyboy' timestamp='1332755342' post='909000152']
They don't have council tax in the ROI just pay for bins being emptied. At 100 quid this is a cheap property tax. I think the IMF want higher charges brought in and this is just the start.


In Scotland many people are paying more than 2K a year for council tax.
[/quote]

bin charges are around 400 euros per year,
100 euros for primary school bus per child
360 euros for secondry school bus per child
200-300e annual book costs for school kids
592 euro car tax on a 1800 cc engine ,220 gbp in uk .thats over double
v.r.t. import tax on cars at 25% more than the uk.
50 euros to visit a doctor and the exorbitant perscription charge on top
100 euros to visit an A&E
dental charges 2-3x uk rates
thus 50% of the irish are cornered into paying 2000-3000e per annum health insurance
pot holes everywhere,few rubbish bins hence litter strewn everywhere,
very few public swimming pools or kids play grounds
the 100 euros household tax is a gateway tax which will increase 10 fold ,its sole purpose is to repay the german and french bank gamblers not local services that the corrupt theives in the irish parliament claim.
i,d rather pay council tax in the uk and have a bit of service anyday.

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[quote name='bearsrus' timestamp='1332800479' post='909000563']
bin charges are around 400 euros per year,
100 euros for primary school bus per child
360 euros for secondry school bus per child
200-300e annual book costs for school kids
592 euro car tax on a 1800 cc engine ,220 gbp in uk .thats over double
v.r.t. import tax on cars at 25% more than the uk.
50 euros to visit a doctor and the exorbitant perscription charge on top
100 euros to visit an A&E
dental charges 2-3x uk rates
thus 50% of the irish are cornered into paying 2000-3000e per annum health insurance
pot holes everywhere,few rubbish bins hence litter strewn everywhere,
very few public swimming pools or kids play grounds
the 100 euros household tax is a gateway tax which will increase 10 fold ,its sole purpose is to repay the german and french bank gamblers not local services that the corrupt theives in the irish parliament claim.
i,d rather pay council tax in the uk and have a bit of service anyday.
[/quote]

It looks to me like you've quoted a bunch of prices for services, which could be provided by a single service provider, for a flat yearly fee, if that is what you wanted. You don't need to be [i]forced[/i] to pay [i]tax[/i] in order to achieve this.

Perhaps people without kids, who are in good health, who generate little waste and don't drive, would quite like paying a fraction of the tax - I would certainly appreciate the [i]choice[/i]. Ofc, health care isn't covered by council tax and neither are the roads, so it seems like you're embellishing your argument anyway.

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[quote name='Traktion' timestamp='1332778572' post='909000371']EDIT: BTW, this was posted before, but is related. I think the Irish are starting to realise what their constitutional rights are, including the right to legal rebellion.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpUjl4LvQM8[/media][/quote]

Banks have also got a right to go after debt they are owed. Renters have a right to expect to pay realistic market value for homes they hope to buy.

Your guy doing all the talking there bought at the peak, for what it got valued at; €452,000. Putting down the proceeds of the sale of his smaller house, €150,000, borrowing €310,000 on an interest only subprime mortgage, pay €652 A WEEK.

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And he even has the nerve to expect, and to actually ask his bank, to write off half of the negative equity he's now in.

He paid the price, where many renters refused and stayed in rented for years, paying rent. He only thinks of homeowners, because his expectations would see those renters, and the young coming through, having to pay more for homes.

Directly because he, and people just like him, were happy to take on debt to pay new peaks for housing over the years.

He doesn't at all consider the position of people who don't have a position in housing. Just the home owners and the debtors.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCzte9CnKu8[/youtube] Edited by Venger

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I note some of the comments on here about Irish property taxes being so low - but what really is penal in Ireland are the inheritance tax rules (or capital acquisitions tax as it is known). So they really clobber you once you are dead by almost forcing your relatives to flog off assets or the home to pay the tax bill.

The tax free threshold is only now 150,000 euros in Ireland if you are a child inheriting from a parent (cut drastically in the last budget) - and you pay 30% on the excess. Even more penal however is how the estates of the childless are treated - the tax free threshold if you leave a legacy to a brother or sister or nephew/niece is only about 33,000 euro. So anything you inherit (including a home) which is not from a parent worth above £25k UK sterling is subject to a 30% tax on the excess.

But even worse this tax free allowance can only be used once as its a lifetime one for a beneficiary. Say your sister leaves you her home worth 33,000 euro - and you use your tax free threshold on that. But then an uncle leaves you a home worth £50,000 - as you have used your tax free lifetime allowance you pay 30% tax on the entire legacy. And for any other legacy you ever get in Ireland from a relative you pay 30% tax on the entire suk. If the legacy is to friend then the tax free amount is negligible e.g. 15,000 euro?

Its quite a brutal tax regime - because the tax free thresholds are linked to the beneficiary not each estate. Contrast this with the UK where the tax free threshold is £325,000 per estate whether you leave it to a child or a friend and if someone receives multiple legacies the £325k tax free threshold applies again and again irrespective of previous legacies.

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[quote name='Saberu' timestamp='1332758084' post='909000171']
You can rent a half decent small apartment in China for 1.4k a year. Oh you meant council tax didn't you? And here as me thinking you meant rental cost ;)

Sucks for you Brits, I like being an expat. I don't know what the fuss over the NHS is, I had a semi-serious health condition and got it treated for just 300 pounds here. Healthcare isn't a ripoff in most countries, just in the US which is a health insurance cartel.
[/quote]

I guess it's all very well for you, being a (presumably) relatively well-paid expat.

Same in a lot of countries where a relatively well paid expat can live very well compared to many locals.

As for healthcare, there are plenty of countries where even if it's very cheap by our standards a lot of locals can't afford it at all.

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[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1332806857' post='909000598']
[b]Banks have also got a right to go after debt they are owed.[/b] Renters have a right to expect to pay realistic market value for homes they hope to buy.

Your guy doing all the talking there bought at the peak, for what it got valued at; €452,000. Putting down the proceeds of the sale of his smaller house, €150,000, borrowing €310,000 on an interest only subprime mortgage, pay €652 A WEEK.
[/quote]

That's the point though - they don't have a [i]lawful[/i] right.

The guys in the video are just standing behind the law and it is the banks (and by extension, the state) who were taking liberties.

Their argument is that the maximum amount they are liable for through the legal system is a fraction of what the bank wants. The bank has no right to claim any more, regardless of what was promised. The banks should have done their home work, rather than just relied on state manipulation and fraud.

As this sort of this harming renters, I doubt it. It will drag [i]down[/i] the price of housing, as the banks will be forced to extend credit only up to the amount that they can realistically retrieve.

Alternatively, the banks will just fail, especially if there are tax strikes preventing further bailouts. Then this whole, sorry ass system of obfuscation, fraud and corporatism can implode on itself. We can then try something else more sane instead.

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