skomer

Ireland - Referendum On Fiscal Treaty........

32 posts in this topic

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/feb/28/irish-referendum-eurozone-fiscal-compact

Ireland will be the first country in the eurozone to give a democratic verdict on the German-backed rules for the single currency after Dublin announced it would hold a referendum on the treaty.

The euro declined on foreign exchanges after the Irish prime minister Enda Kenny told the Dáil that the Republic's chief law officer had advised the cabinet that "on balance" a referendum should be held under the terms of the Irish constitution.

Kenny is now expected to fight for concessions from Brussels on the terms of Ireland's swingeing euro bailout as the price for heading off a potentially embarrassing electoral rejection of the "fiscal compact" tightening rules for the 17 eurozone members.

Ireland, which has twice rejected EU treaties, must hold a referendum on any international treaty that has an impact on the country's sovereignty. The plebiscite on the EU fiscal compact would have to be held by Easter and by June at the latest.

The taoiseach said: "It gives the Irish people the opportunity to reaffirm Ireland's commitment to membership of the euro, which remains a fundamental pillar of our economic and jobs strategy. More binding and enforceable fiscal rules as a result of ratification will be good for both Ireland and the wider eurozone, and will cement growing international confidence in Ireland's recovery."

Neil Mellor, of the bank BNY Mellon, said Dublin's announcement raised fresh doubts about the future of the single currency, even before the latest bailout for Greece has been released. "It's death by a thousand cuts," he said.

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When G-Pap announced a referendum Merkozy removed him and installed their own Viceroy.

If it looks like a 'No' (and it does on recent polling) he'll be out. :D

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Interesting how democracy is now a clear and present danger to the European Project- if I ever get a chance to vote against it in any way shape or form I will do so.

And I was firmly pro EU until I saw the Germans in action against the Greeks- I hope they choke on it.

Whatever the EU is it has nothing to with the well being of the ordinary people of Europe. Edited by wonderpup

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[quote name='wonderpup' timestamp='1330459140' post='3273259']
Interesting how democracy is now a clear and present danger to the European Project- if I ever get a chance to vote against it in any way shape or form I will do so.

And I was firmly pro EU until I saw the Germans in action against the Greeks- I hope they choke on it.

Whatever the EU is it has nothing to with the well being of the ordinary people of Europe.
[/quote]
i thought it would still be your wet dream, regulation squared, central planning, apparatchiks, forced wealth redistribution, nothings actually changed apart from money running out

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[quote name='Red Knight' timestamp='1330458414' post='3273245']
When G-Pap announced a referendum Merkozy removed him and installed their own Viceroy.

If it looks like a 'No' (and it does on recent polling) he'll be out. :D
[/quote]

Will be very interesting to see where this goes. I'd be surprised if Ireland said 'yes' .... but what then??

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[quote name='57percent' timestamp='1330459691' post='3273266']
Will be very interesting to see where this goes. I'd be surprised if Ireland said 'yes' .... but what then??
[/quote]

Where's our referendum? I cannot believe we have given our democracy away without a vote, and we Brits are sitting on our a r s e s doing nothing about it.

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[quote]i thought it would still be your wet dream, regulation squared, central planning, apparatchiks, forced wealth redistribution, nothings actually changed apart from money running out [/quote]

The EU had a choice to make in Greece- save the people or save the banks- they chose the banks.

And that will be their undoing.

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[quote name='Monkey' timestamp='1330460527' post='3273282']
this could get very interesting
[/quote]

Well, I'll have a vote on it...although as my NO "votes" on lisbon didn't amount to much I'm wondering if it's worth the effort....

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[quote name='wonderpup' timestamp='1330460982' post='3273288']
The EU had a choice to make in Greece- save the people or save the banks- they chose the banks.

And that will be their undoing.
[/quote]
No its actually Greeces choice, they can leave the EU tomorrow if they want, never had to join, could have left any time, its entirely up to the population, they either want to or they dont and if their politicians have other ideas then they deal with them, its always been Greeces choice but just like you it seems they put too much faith in their politicians actually giving a toss about the people they were supposedly representing (dont laugh) and in this case Greece, next year someone else, in a few years someone else, theyve all just been running a large degree debt cycle and the beauty of these rare events is that they show politicians up for what they actually are in the wider scheme of things, irrelevant and fundamentally unnecessary, countries are made up of people, wealth is created by people acting, not politicians, politicians are no more or less than modern societies parasites redistributing to them and their friends the whole multi decadal cycle but noone gives a toss until the debt cycle runs its course and quelle suprise currency union in Europe once again goes exactly the same way as every other attempted major currency union in Europe when the debt cycle ends (its not like this hasnt been tried before going in to the top of debt cycles going back throughout Europes chequered and bloody history), down the sh!tter of social deterioration all created by politicians selling their country out in the name of vanity, money and Power Edited by Tamara De Lempicka

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Prediction: the Irish will horsetrade and pass the referendum.

Been following this since the Irish vote on the SEA in 1986. I bet the referendum proposition will have a rider about future referendums ie. Irish fiscal authority to be subjugated to EU commission control - but debt to be written off, or at least Germany to assume payment of unsecured bondholders in Irish banks. Something crude.

Won't do much for employment or house prices, but public sector has already taken a big hit, benefits will be paid, and voters will evade tax like their fathers did in the 1970s.

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[quote name='okaycuckoo' timestamp='1330464441' post='3273328']
Prediction: the Irish will horsetrade and pass the referendum.
[/quote]

+1

I bet secret negotiations with EUSSRO authorities are already in full swing

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[quote name='Tamara De Lempicka' timestamp='1330461219' post='3273292']
No its actually Greeces choice, they can leave the EU tomorrow if they want, never had to join, could have left any time, its entirely up to the population, they either want to or they dont and if their politicians have other ideas then they deal with them, its always been Greeces choice but just like you it seems they put too much faith in their politicians actually giving a toss about the people they were supposedly representing (dont laugh) and in this case Greece, next year someone else, in a few years someone else, theyve all just been running a large degree debt cycle and the beauty of these rare events is that they show politicians up for what they actually are in the wider scheme of things, irrelevant and fundamentally unnecessary, countries are made up of people, wealth is created by people acting, not politicians, politicians are no more or less than modern societies parasites redistributing to them and their friends the whole multi decadal cycle but noone gives a toss until the debt cycle runs its course and quelle suprise currency union in Europe once again goes exactly the same way as every other attempted major currency union in Europe when the debt cycle ends (its not like this hasnt been tried before going in to the top of debt cycles going back throughout Europes chequered and bloody history), down the sh!tter of social deterioration all created by politicians selling their country out in the name of vanity, money and Power
[/quote]


They were going to have a a vote on leaving weren't they?

A few days later the prime minister was outsted and the bankers parachuted in.

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[quote name='OnlyMe' timestamp='1330466115' post='3273352']
They were going to have a a vote on leaving weren't they?

A few days later the prime minister was outsted and the bankers parachuted in.
[/quote]
and the Greeks accepted it, like i say its Greeces choice Edited by Tamara De Lempicka

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[quote name='interestrateripoff' timestamp='1330461653' post='3273301']
So how many referendums will they hold until they finally vote yes?
[/quote]

Now that`s a good idea for a poll

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[quote]No its actually Greeces choice, they can leave the EU tomorrow if they want, never had to join, could have left any time, its entirely up to the population, they either want to or they dont and if their politicians have other ideas then they deal with them, its always been Greeces choice but just like you it seems they put too much faith in their politicians actually giving a toss about the people they were supposedly representing (dont laugh) and in this case Greece, next year someone else, in a few years someone else, theyve all just been running a large degree debt cycle and the beauty of these rare events is that they show politicians up for what they actually are in the wider scheme of things, irrelevant and fundamentally unnecessary, countries are made up of people, wealth is created by people acting, not politicians, politicians are no more or less than modern societies parasites redistributing to them and their friends the whole multi decadal cycle but noone gives a toss until the debt cycle runs its course and quelle suprise currency union in Europe once again goes exactly the same way as every other attempted major currency union in Europe when the debt cycle ends (its not like this hasnt been tried before going in to the top of debt cycles going back throughout Europes chequered and bloody history), down the sh!tter of social deterioration all created by politicians selling their country out in the name of vanity, money and Power [/quote]

You miss my point. The Euro was nothing more than an act of will- a declaration of intent by the combined nations of Europe that they were one.

In choosing to sacrifice Greece to save their banks the Germans have destroyed the Euro. When the test of will came Europe was found wanting and the test was failed.

Everyone now knows that the Euro is built on sand.

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[quote name='wonderpup' timestamp='1330468100' post='3273384']
You miss my point. The Euro was nothing more than an act of will- a declaration of intent by the combined nations of Europe that they were one.

In choosing to sacrifice Greece to save their banks the Germans have destroyed the Euro. When the test of will came Europe was found wanting and the test was failed.

Everyone now knows that the Euro is built on sand.
[/quote]
Money is an act of will for everyone. The euro will survive, with some fancy internal currency for the public sector in the weaker states.

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[quote]

Kenny is now expected to fight for concessions from Brussels on the terms of Ireland's swingeing euro bailout as the price for heading off a potentially embarrassing electoral rejection of the "fiscal compact" tightening rules for the 17 eurozone members.
[/quote]

So he's saying to Brussels:

"I can deliver Ireland to you". Edited by billybong

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The Irish PM will be signing the treaty on Friday.

Apparently, it takes only 12 of the 16 countries to say 'yes' for the Fiscal Treaty to become effective and binding on all 16 countries. A 'no' from Ireland will just mean they won't get another bailout so easily.

[i]Fait accompli.[/i]

Now watch while the UK gets dragged into the Eurozone.

Edit: Correction, 12 out of 17 countries in total. Edited by happy_renting

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[quote name='happy_renting' timestamp='1330496882' post='3273476']
The Irish PM will be signing the treaty on Friday.

Apparently, it takes only 12 of the 16 countries to say 'yes' for the Fiscal Treaty to become effective and binding on all 16 countries. A 'no' from Ireland will just mean they won't get another bailout so easily.

[i]Fait accompli.[/i]

Now watch while the UK gets dragged into the Eurozone.
[/quote]

+1 non story, move along, nothing to see here .. :ph34r:

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[quote]Money is an act of will for everyone. The euro will survive, with some fancy internal currency for the public sector in the weaker states. [/quote]

What Greece makes clear is that when it really matters the 'Eurozone' decomposes rapidly into a bickering collection of nation states- and what cohesion does exist is provided by the German's ability to dominate, an ability that in large part is sustained precisely [i]because[/i] they will not integrate fully into the single currency and have no intention of ever doing so.

Whatever this is it is not a currency with a long term future.

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I saw an update of the state of Ireland's housing market in an article discussing her referendum. Take a look at these figures which show the scale of the crash which has taken place there!

[quote]The likely prospect for Ireland’s banks

This is entwined with her housing market as the main driver in the collapse of Ireland’s banks was the rise and then fall of her construction and housing sectors. If we take a look at property prices we see something which is not only grim but shows some signs of getting even worse. From her Central Statistics Office.

In the year to January, residential property prices at a national level, fell by 17.4%. This compares with an annual rate of decline of 16.7% in December and a decline of 10.7% recorded in the twelve months to January 2011.

Residential property prices fell by 1.9% in the month of January. This compares with a decline of 1.7% recorded in December and a decline of 1.1% in January of last year.

Overall, the national index is 48% lower than its highest level in 2007.

I think that we can call that a crash! And there is no sign of a bottom yet. Now think about the state of the mortgage books of Ireland’s banks. They must be going from bad to worse or perhaps more accurately from very poor to even worse.
[/quote]


http://www.mindfulmoney.co.uk/wp/shaun-richards/why-in-my-opinion-ireland-should-vote-no-in-her-referendum-on-the-eu-fiscal-compact/

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this is your chance ireland, dont let em railroad and threaten you like last time. they will use fear and intimidation and lies. anything to get you onboard. do not believe it. your chance for freedom has become. you fought to get freedom from england so why hand that over to europe.

stick it to them.




respect to ireland for even allowing a referendum, the people of 27 countries never got a say. disgracefull, scary and illegal.

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